Labour can kill off Coke and Pepsi politics

[mypost]

By pulling out, they would send a signal to the electorate, that they don't have to blindly follow FF decisions if they're bad for the country. If they sit there for the next 3 years, they will be seen as the tail wagging the dog, and suffer the consequences.

[OneRedArmy]

The Greens in recent days were saying the programme for Government would be renegotiated but Cowan has firmly said that won't happen now.

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0518/1224246812172.html?via=rel)



Like any junior partner in government the Greens need a good excuse if they are to bring down the government. Electorates are very unforgiving of unecessary elections. The worse the Greens do in the elections the better it is for FF as the Greens will be less likely to want to call an election from such a low state.The quote I heard from BIFFO said that it was a logical request for the Greens to make two years into the Government and in the middle of an election campaign. He didn't rule it out completely, but gave no indication that he would do anything about it.

The Greens should've done it at the time of the Supplementary Budget, as that was a more logical time to suggest a review.

[Macy]

Agree with this. If the greens were to pull out of government, they would effectively be signing their own death warrant. They would be slaughtered at the polls and whilst the likes of FF can absorb a beating, they would be set back years in terms of party popularity growth.
They're well into damned if they do, damned if they don't country at this stage. They'd be better pulling it down if they can come up with an issue that'd justify them making a stand (if opinion polls and the forthcoming elections aren't enough justification in themselves). If they don't, independents and FF back benchers could well do it for them, and then they'd be really fecked!

[Bald Student]

I won't be cutting the Greens any slack ORA. They always featured on my ballot card based on their policies; if you take those policies away, as they themselves have done, there's nothing left. The reasons why are none of my concern, but I will say that in my opinion naivete is neither valid, nor (entirely) accurate. Eamon Ryan's behaviour in Government being a perfect example: I can't account for his naivete, but I do know for a fact that he's a bare-faced liar.

Gormley's probably naive though. Probably not the best character flaw for a party leader. I look forward to the return of Clever Trevor; assuming the Greens last long enough for it of course. He might be able to win me back as a voter.

adam

I don't agree Adam because I put much less weight onto the policies a party has in opposition. Policies in opposition are only words on a sheet of paper, policies in government consist of real things being done. And, in my calculations, it takes an awful lot of paper to measure up against actual stuff.

For example, I'm pretty sure that if the greens weren't in government one or both of the new train tunnels in Dublin would have been cancelled by now. I'll happily take a new train tunnel over over 100 diagrams of train tunnels published in opposition policy documents.

[OneRedArmy]

FF have agreed to review the Programme for Government. Time will tell if anything material changes.

[dahamsta]

Policies in opposition are only words on a sheet of paperPolitics in opposition is about pushing for the compromise mentioned earlier. Someone in opposition learned a long time ago that if you exaggerate your cause you can get the compromise closer to your ideal, then the guys in government figured out what was going on, and that's where we've been ever since. It's all a simple extension of diplomacy, which we've been practising for thousands of years. You get exceptions like America for the last 8 years, but that's a flawed electoral system more than anything, which usually results in better democracy in time, and/or dictatorship and ultimately self-destruction.

But if you really feel that opposition policies are ultimately worthless, why bother voting at all?

adam

[Lionel Ritchie]

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/fine-gael-rules-out-coalition-with-greens-411171.html
:

RE: Fine Gael ruling coalition with the Green Party ....You'll have to be quick with your stopwatch to clock how long that position stands in the event FG need the numbers.

[Bald Student]

But if you really feel that opposition policies are ultimately worthless, why bother voting at all?They only have worth if they eventually get implemented, they're not valuable in themselves. I could write all sorts of wonderful things on a sheet of paper and you could vote for me but that wouldn't achieve anything unless I also made some attempt to bring our plans into reality. If the Labour Party take Fintan O'Toole's advice and refuse to enter government, then there was little point in them running in the first place. My opinion of the Greens in roughly the same.

I don't think there's any fundamental difference between our opinions but I think I'm willing to put up with more compromise than you are, possibly because a lot of the things the greens compromised on was stuff I disagreed with.

[Macy]

RE: Fine Gael ruling coalition with the Green Party ....You'll have to be quick with your stopwatch to clock how long that position stands in the event FG need the numbers.
If the election is anything close to the recent polls, they'll only be Clever Trevor left. I'm surprised though, as again on recent polls they could well be able to form a coalition with a smaller party than Labour.


If the Labour Party take Fintan O'Toole's advice and refuse to enter government, then there was little point in them running in the first place.
Not at all, people could vote for Labour enough to give them a majority, or if it forces FG/FF into coalition then the following election will be a straight run off.


My opinion of the Greens in roughly the same
The Greens went in when they weren't needed, so didn't get much in policy compromises. It also means they're stuck now with the consequences. It was a stupid political decision.


FF have agreed to review the Programme for Government. Time will tell if anything material changes
It's actually another poor move by the Government Parties. Assuming poor election results, their come back could've been that they'll review the Programme for Government as a response. Now they've already committed to that and they'll have to come up with something else to justify staying in power.

Still it's nice to see the Greens having a real impact on their partners in Government...
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/watchdog-to-quiz-ff-over-developer-donations-1743465.html

[Lionel Ritchie]

The Greens went in when they weren't needed, so didn't get much in policy compromises. It also means they're stuck now with the consequences. It was a stupid political decision. Recently, either earlier in this thread or some other, I alluded to this being the reason for the ultimate schism with Patricia McKenna ...that she didn't feel either the Green Party were in the position of strength neccessary to manipulate a programme for Government in the way the Progressive Democrats once had been. (Not a straight comparison I know as FF adapted PD policy with the same entusiasm as Weyland Smithers did Turkish jail-time.)

[BohsPartisan]

Seriously I have never voted for FF in my life but my motivation was not to hurt them.

You're just a jealous guy?