CL Final

[old git]

Yeah Barca deserved to win and it was a pity the game was so one sided and that the Irishman ended up with a losers medal howerver it was a joy to watch Xavi Iniesta and Messi. Midfied won the day. Dunphy is a muppet saying Man Utd are a shambles. 3 league titles in a row and 2 Champions Leagues in a row and they are in shambles.

yes the same dunphy who fancied utd to win before match and even admitted he backed them to win game last night not very smart on a team that are a shambles :D

[old git]

Bar Anderson, Giggs and Carrick I didn't criticise any player outside of tonights game unduly. I called Park a poor man's Kuyt and he is, he works hard, tracks back well, but Kuyt scores more and even better he scores on big occasions. Not a huge criticism of Park because I actually rate both himself and Kuyt. All the other comments bar the three I've highlighted were on tonights performance, not this season or the last few seasons.

And I'll stand by saying Carrick and Anderson aren't good enough for that level, Xavi and Iniesta vs Carrick and Anderson should tell you that United need to buy in the summer. Giggs should retire, he's a grand cameo performer against smaller opponants but he's only kept around because he has been a great servant of the club, not on merit. That Players Player of the Year award was a joke before anyone brings it up too.

Oh wait I called Scholes a hacker, can anyone dispute this? So whats your point?

paul scholes has always been a bad tackler but to call him a hacker is crazy :mad: been one of utds & preimer league best players for last number of years and 10 preimer league titles , 2 champions league titles and a few f.a cups not bad for a hacker
:p

[old git]

While I agree they are great team, the bit in bold is untrue imo. Chelsea more than matched barca in the semis and were very unlucky to go out.

but out they went :D .... think on a one of match / final like last night chelsea would have been beaten last night also

[KK77]

Bar Anderson, Giggs and Carrick I didn't criticise any player outside of tonights game unduly. I called Park a poor man's Kuyt and he is, he works hard, tracks back well, but Kuyt scores more and even better he scores on big occasions. Not a huge criticism of Park because I actually rate both himself and Kuyt. All the other comments bar the three I've highlighted were on tonights performance, not this season or the last few seasons.

And I'll stand by saying Carrick and Anderson aren't good enough for that level, Xavi and Iniesta vs Carrick and Anderson should tell you that United need to buy in the summer. Giggs should retire, he's a grand cameo performer against smaller opponants but he's only kept around because he has been a great servant of the club, not on merit. That Players Player of the Year award was a joke before anyone brings it up too.

Oh wait I called Scholes a hacker, can anyone dispute this? So whats your point?

Becareful praising Kuyt on this site;)

[Pious37]

As a United fan I have to say I'm very dissapointed. Ya its hard to take losing but I have to say Barca were unstoppable last night, sheer class. Xavi and Iniesta are unreal. Its hard to take such a poor performance but these things happen. You have good games and bad games and United just didnt show up last night. "Fans" on your on sky sports last night were calling for Fergie to be sacked, they should never be let grace the red shirt of Man United ever again. Them comments were an absoulte disgrace. Hats off to Barca, worthy champions!

GGMU, Keep the red flag flying high!

[KK77]

Best side won not much more to say is there. On a side note delighted for Evra! Men against babies last night hey Evra:D

[hunt4the]

Never had any. Only posters I had when I was 8 and 9 and 10 were Ireland ones. Now I do not have posters. As I said already only reason I was hoping that Man Utd won was because John O Shea was playing for Man Utd, if he was playhing for Barca I would have gone for them.

Just admit it, your sitting at your computer wearing your treble shirt from 1999 with neville on the back, and blubbering all over the keyboard, from the posts you've put up ur defo a man u fan. My condolences :o

[KK77]

just admit it, your sitting at your computer wearing your treble shirt from 1999 with neville on the back, and blubbering all over the keyboard, from the posts you've put up ur defo a man u fan. My condolences :o

:d:d:d:d

[shakermaker1982]

Barca were excellent and worthy winners.

I think Fergie was too slow in reacting to Guardiola's positional change and emphasis on how they'd attack. Fergie expected the majority of Barca's attacking play to come from the wings via Messi and Henry. Consequently he had Rooney and Park as the workhorses to track back and help out the full backs when required. Instead Barca just cut United to pieces down the middle like a knife through butter. Messi was in a central position for most of the night and Xavi and Iniesta were making Giggs and Carrick look slow and ponderous. I think Anderson should have stayed on (scapegoat - Giggs and Carrick were more worthy candidates to come off) with Scholes brought on much earlier. The decent only performer from a Man Utd perspective was Van Der Sar. Ronaldo looked dangerous early on but once Barca scored he couldn't get hold of the ball because Carrick thought long aimless balls into touch was the way forward. O'Shea was solid enough but needs to work on stopping crosses coming in to dangerous areas. The rest of the team were way below par. I think if Fergie was given the opportunity to play the match again he'd have started with Tevez and tried to press the Barca back 4 into mistakes if possible.

After sitting through nearly 2 hours of pre match build up from Redknapp, Souness and Gray creaming themselves over the PL's superiority I had to smile at the end when Redknapp comes out with "maybe the Premier League int as good as we thought. Know what I mean Ruud?" ******. No - it's just you and your buddies who think the Premiership is God's gift to mankind. The rest of the world hopefully realise that there are some fantastic players and sides out there who can play football and have techinical ability to match the best if given the platform to shine.

[Stuttgart88]

Yeh British and Irish people can talk about lack of technique all they want but passing ability is mainly down to intelligence. Technique is a born talent. I disagree. Some players like Rooney never had to be taught technique apparently, he just had it instinctively. But that's a rarity - technique is definitely taught, talent is what you're born with.

Footballing intelligence is innate but can also be developed - as you say, repetition of "receive, pass, show" teaches the right habits. I played with players with technique and talent but no footballing intelligence.

What use is it if you've a great first touch and accurate passing if you haven't the wit to determine the right pass, or to find space to receive a pass, or just generally can't read situations?

[Dodge]

Iniesta during the week was talking about the training he received all throughout his development at Barcelona. He said he was taught three basic things.

"Receive, pass, offer... receive, pass, offer"

Something Johnny Giles has been preaching for as long as I've been watching TV

[Dodge]

I think Fergie was too slow in reacting to Guardiola's positional change and emphasis on how they'd attack.


Barca always play that way. They always play through Xavi and Iniesta. Ferguson specifically picked the defensive Anderson to counteract this.

It didn't work out...

[reder]

Best side won not much more to say is there.

Correct. However, I dont think any other side in Europe would have been able to live with Barca last night. Liverpool would have put them under more pressure in the midflield ala Chelsea but Barca's quality would have shone through.

Messi is the best player in the world. I hope everyone can agree on this now. Ronaldo is a world class player but no where near the best in the world.

If Barca invest in some solid defenders this summer, they will dominate Spain and the CL for the next few seasons.

[shakermaker1982]

Footballing intelligence is innate but can also be developed - as you say, repetition of "receive, pass, show" teaches the right habits. I played with players with technique and talent but no footballing intelligence.


This drives me crazy. I'll be encountering this same very problem later on today. People wandering out of position or watching the opposition run past them and they just let them go. Moving into space to receive a pass is also one step too far for some of the players I play with or against! Don't get me wrong I'm no Franz Beckenbauer but I'd like to think I have a bit of a football brain. I just need to work on technique and ability! :D

[shakermaker1982]

Barca always play that way. They always play through Xavi and Iniesta. Ferguson specifically picked the defensive Anderson to counteract this.

It didn't work out...

Xavi and Iniesta will eventually get the ball wide out to Messi and Henry though (more times than not). Xavi and Iniesta are the heart beat of the side but their goals and attacking menace comes from the flanks. That was not the case last night. Instead it was Iniesta and Xavi constantly running at the two centre backs. I was surprised that Fergie didn't try to shore up the centre of midfield once they went behind just to try and tame Barca for a little while.

Anderson has energy but I wouldn't say he is defensive. Carrick is normally the player expected to sweep up in midfield and protect the two centre backs if there is no Fletcher or Hargreaves.

[Dodge]

Messi, henry and Eto'o cut inside. The only real width on Barca's team is Alves, and with Puyol replacing him (magnificently) their was never going to be attacks down the flanks.

[shakermaker1982]

I never said they attack 'down the flanks' as in a team with traditional wingers or attacking full backs. Messi/Henry/Eto cut inside but they start out from a wide position hence the danger from wide positions comment. As soon as they touch the ball they are engaging with the full back and Fergie made the assumption that they would get the ball out wide as per the norm so Messi and Henry could do their thing. I cannot remember Messi cutting back inside from the right last night. I might be wrong. The game is is a blur!

[bennocelt]

I let my head rule the heart last night, and lumped a lot of money on Man Utd, damn , damn, damn
Barca were a joy to watch, and this win is definitely great for the game.
Iniesta and Xavi were ace, and it really was a toss up on who would get MOTM from them, Toure and Pique were great in defence (proving what I said earlier in another thread that they wouldnt miss their reg CD's), and Messi is a joy to watch. Cant wait foir next years world cup.:)

As for Man Utd, Ferguson got it totally wrong. What the hell is Park doing on the pitch, he is rubbish - and have a player like Tevez on the bench.
And I had to laugh when he brought on Berbatov - jesus what an awful substituitn, and Scholes on for 15 mins!!!!!!:eek:
Agree with Jebus - dont rate Carrick at all
The normally strong united defence let them down badly last night, but IMHO O'Shea was uniteds best player!

[OwlsFan]

"Receive, pass, offer... receive, pass, offer"

Something Johnny Giles has been preaching for as long as I've been watching TV

If you ever saw his Irish team, it was receive, side pass, offer... receive, back pass, offer...receive, side pass, offer... receive, back pass, offer..lose possession..goal to the opposition! Terrible stuff.

How many of the Man U players were British/Irish? Few. So it has nothing to do with inate skill or continental coaching. Man U (who have been struggling over the past 3 months by their standards) were beaten by the better side on the night. If Barca played Man U 3 months ago, Man U would have won.

[cheifo]

A triumph for Guardiola/Barcelona who let big names Ronaldinhio and Deco go
and didn't replace them.

Did they make any big signings this year? Don't think they have really splashed the cash since they signed Henry?

This intelligent change of emphasis on approach contrasts with Reals buy buy strategy which looks set to continue this year.

[NeilMcD]

Just admit it, your sitting at your computer wearing your treble shirt from 1999 with neville on the back, and blubbering all over the keyboard, from the posts you've put up ur defo a man u fan. My condolences :o

Believe what you want to believe but I know who I support and its Ireland and Bohs in that order. Just because I am not an ABU which to me is a sad existance for anybody and I would say that if somebody was an ABL or and ABC either. Last night we had the two best teams in Europe and the best team in Europe won it as they played really really well and Man Utd didnt, end of story.

[Stuttgart88]

I think Chelsea were able to negate Barcelona because their small pitch allowed them to play the way they did. Last night's bigger pitch gave Barca the room they need to stretch teams.

I know Chelsea held them to 0-0 in the Nou Camp but though I didn't see much of the game, my understanding is that Barca were way better and missed many chances.

I thought last night wasn't a million miles off the 94 CL final.

[Dodge]

it wasn't just the pitch. Chelsea have superb, hard working defensive midfielders too

[NeilMcD]

Agree on the 94 comparison.

[Stuttgart88]

it wasn't just the pitch. Chelsea have superb, hard working defensive midfielders tooI wasn't saying they didn't, just that Chelsea were able to get at them a hell of a lot more than United did, and came within seconds and some controversial decisions from knocking them out. That said, Chelsea scored early changing the game - United nearly did. Maybe it'd have been different, who knows?

I actually thought Barcelona's play without the ball was exceptional, a real lesson for anyone to watch.

[jebus]

paul scholes has always been a bad tackler but to call him a hacker is crazy :mad: been one of utds & preimer league best players for last number of years and 10 preimer league titles , 2 champions league titles and a few f.a cups not bad for a hacker
:p

Is that a serious point?

Scholes is a great passer of the ball and a superb finisher but he has never shown any inclination to even learn how to challenge properly, not only that but he regularly flies into challenges when he's frustrated (last night is the prime example). He gets away with it because people like you and the ITV team either laugh it off as 'oh that Scholes with his high challenges' or talk up his attributes

[NeilMcD]

Yeah the ITV commentary and Old Git have special powers over referees. Old Git how do you do it.

[jebus]

Did they make any big signings this year? Don't think they have really splashed the cash since they signed Henry?


Dani Alves was a big signing last year, 20m I think. Hleb also came in as well as Pique and Keita. Read elsewhere that their starting line up last night however was this

Valdes (Youth)

Puyol (Youth)
Pique (Youth/5 million from United)
Toure (5m)
Silvinho (1m)

Iniesta (Youth)
Busquets (Youth)
Xavi (Youth)

Messi (Youth)
Eto'o (17m)
Henry (15m)

Total 43m (5m of that spent on buying back a poached youth player)

Van Der Sar (Free)

O'Shea (Youth)
Ferdinand (30m)
Vidic (7m)
Evra (5.5m)

Anderson (18m)
Carrick (18m)
Giggs (Youth)

Park (4m)
Ronaldo (25m)
Rooney (13m)

Total 120.5m

Maybe there's something in Wenger's vision of nurturing youth players and poached talent after all :D

[jebus]

Yeah the ITV commentary and Old Git have special powers over referees. Old Git how do you do it.

:confused:

He constantly gets booked in matches

[cheifo]

Was intrigued the way the Barcelona played those passes through the middle with enough power to get through a forest of bodies.

It looked sometimes like the passes were hit to hard but the first touch of the recieving player always ensured they maintained possession.

Anyone see that time it was played very hard through to a surrounded Messi chest high?.... but he took it down , created space and started an attack nearly all in the one movement.

It really was interesting to see the template Finn Harps are going to adopt!!:cool:

[Rovers fan]

Xavi and Iniesta will eventually get the ball wide out to Messi and Henry though (more times than not). Xavi and Iniesta are the heart beat of the side but their goals and attacking menace comes from the flanks. That was not the case last night. Instead it was Iniesta and Xavi constantly running at the two centre backs.


No, most of their attacks come from the middle, with xavi and iniesta running through. Then they either play a through ball to E'too, or messi and henry come from the flanks. Most of the attacking they do they do down the wings originates with alves or abidal. And not often do they cross the ball. No way in hell is the bit in bold true. Have you been watching barca all year or just guessing?

[Red&White Rover]

Thought Barca were magnificent last night, an absolute joy to watch.

[ken foree]

Was intrigued the way the Barcelona played those passes through the middle with enough power to get through a forest of bodies.

It looked sometimes like the passes were hit to hard but the first touch of the recieving player always ensured they maintained possession.

Anyone see that time it was played very hard through to a surrounded Messi chest high?.... but he took it down , created space and started an attack nearly all in the one movement.

It really was interesting to see the template Finn Harps are going to adopt!!:cool:

yessir. and because of the emerging danger of barca's men in possession, united began to look like england. well the slow, plodding pre-capello variety anyway (haven't seen them recently under him). hitting ambitious balls (carrick in particular) to try and mitigate the problems barca were starting to cause in midfield. park was coming inside to help out on messi and iniesta but was constantly lobbed with mathematical precision where puyol and silvinho were becoming more and more available. barca were incredible, i'm a united fan and it's a relief that at least there were no contentious decisions (a la chelsea semi) or too much diving to cloud their superiority on the night.

[old git]

Is that a serious point?

Scholes is a great passer of the ball and a superb finisher but he has never shown any inclination to even learn how to challenge properly, not only that but he regularly flies into challenges when he's frustrated (last night is the prime example). He gets away with it because people like you and the ITV team either laugh it off as 'oh that Scholes with his high challenges' or talk up his attributes

sorry jebus but the referee deceides if he gets away with it and he gotyellow card for challange last night...utv/ bbc will always gloss over english born players. :mad: gerrard / fabregas & rooney and numerous other current players could all go into catogory of flying into tackles when frustrated ..
. he must be doing something right to hold down a regular starting place on succesful man utd teams for last 12-15 years :D everybody knows what you get with scholes great passer / superb finisher & terrible tackler

[old git]

Yeah the ITV commentary and Old Git have special powers over referees. Old Git how do you do it.

special powers never worked when i was playing ... must be all the tablets i'm taking now has given me an extra talent :D

[old git]

Dani Alves was a big signing last year, 20m I think. Hleb also came in as well as Pique and Keita. Read elsewhere that their starting line up last night however was this

Valdes (Youth)

Puyol (Youth)
Pique (Youth/5 million from United)
Toure (5m)
Silvinho (1m)

Iniesta (Youth)
Busquets (Youth)
Xavi (Youth)

Messi (Youth)
Eto'o (17m)
Henry (15m)

Total 43m (5m of that spent on buying back a poached youth player)

Van Der Sar (Free)

O'Shea (Youth)
Ferdinand (30m)
Vidic (7m)
Evra (5.5m)

Anderson (18m)
Carrick (18m)
Giggs (Youth)

Park (4m)
Ronaldo (25m)
Rooney (13m)

Total 120.5m

Maybe there's something in Wenger's vision of nurturing youth players and poached talent after all :D

better still bet wenger wished he had some of those youth players above :D:D

[old git]

I wasn't saying they didn't, just that Chelsea were able to get at them a hell of a lot more than United did, and came within seconds and some controversial decisions from knocking them out. That said, Chelsea scored early changing the game - United nearly did. Maybe it'd have been different, who knows?

I actually thought Barcelona's play without the ball was exceptional, a real lesson for anyone to watch.

would agree may have been a differnt game if utd had took one of their early half chances ( but all if's & buts now) barcelona looked very nervous / shaky untill they scored and then it was a masterclass by them and they worked very hard to close utd down & WIN BALL back ..which i thought utd would have done to them .. any neutral or honest utd fan could only marvel at their play at times

[eirebhoy]

I disagree. Some players like Rooney never had to be taught technique apparently, he just had it instinctively. But that's a rarity - technique is definitely taught, talent is what you're born with.

I think guys like Neil Lennon and Gattuso are very limited in their technical ability and there's nothing they can do about that. Both very good passers though because of their brain.

Players are also limited in how much they can improve their tactical intelligence but I don't think the players from the likes of Japan and Croatia who passed England off the park are anywhere near as technically gifted as their English counterparts.

You can improve your technique but only so much. I'm left footed and it's relatively decent by 5 a-side standards. My right foot is just terrible. I could spend forever trying to improve it but I doubt it would ever even reach the limited ability of my left. I've never been able to put even 3 or 4 volleys together with my right. It's just not meant to be. :)

Gattuso agrees btw. He actually joked once that he has square feet.

[jebus]

sorry jebus but the referee deceides if he gets away with it and he gotyellow card for challange last night...utv/ bbc will always gloss over english born players. :mad: gerrard / fabregas & rooney and numerous other current players could all go into catogory of flying into tackles when frustrated ..
. he must be doing something right to hold down a regular starting place on succesful man utd teams for last 12-15 years :D everybody knows what you get with scholes great passer / superb finisher & terrible tackler

Oh ffs http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/post-5758-1225601204.gif

[Stuttgart88]

I know eirebhoy, but there' a technique to passing - and controlling a pass. If you have the talent, you can develop technique. You can't just teach technique to anyone - yopu and me for example!

The 2 you mentioned are intelligent footballers, and as I said you can have all the technique in the world but no footballing intelligence you won't be a good player. It's the all-in package I suppose. Balance is everything. Eric Morecambe wouldn't have been as funny without Ernie Wise. I'm not talking about tactical intelligence - more an innate general footballing intelligence, knowing when to show, where to show, who to pass to when you have more than one option....

I'd argue that Croatia were technically more adept at England that night. Receiving, passing, offering -retaining possession in a manner England couldn't. Players like Gerrard can play a good pass (though not that night) but the players around him can't always receive it - heavy first touches etc. Barcelona's receiving was superb, not just the passing - hard accurate passes just controlled with ease. That's technique and is learnt from a young age.

The team collective is important too and can be coached, just as Iniesta said was drilled into him at the Barcelona academy - receive, pass, offer.

[Metrostars]

Maybe there's something in Wenger's vision of nurturing youth players and poached talent after all :D

Except Man Utd have won 3 Premier Leagues, a Champions League, a Carling Cup and a World Club Championship since the last time Wenger won anything.

Barca were absolutely brilliant, their ball control, passing and movement was exceptional. Man Utd's center midfield has been shown up badly by Liverpool and Barca this year.

[shanman2]

delighted with the result it really shows how much better spanish league is compared to english.
man utd- lack of effort, lack of a good midfielder rooney really bad ronaldo god bless him he will be on his bike.
barcelona pique excellent 5million from manure eat that fergie, iniesta free xavi free busquets free ferguson good manager with loads of money to spend.
Forza barca

[Shilts]

delighted with the result it really shows how much better spanish league is compared to english.
man utd- lack of effort, lack of a good midfielder rooney really bad ronaldo god bless him he will be on his bike.
barcelona pique excellent 5million from manure eat that fergie, iniesta free xavi free busquets free ferguson good manager with loads of money to spend.
Forza barca

I don't agree.
The CL Final only proves that the Spanish Champions are better than the English Champions. Remember that England had 3 in the semis - again. No other Spanish team is good enough to break through at the moment. Remember Liverpool battered Real Madrid.
And I don't think that the lower reaches of La Liga can compete that well with the better teams (as can sometimes be the case in England).

But Barca were a joy to watch last wed.
In Ireland there is no reason why we can't promote that type of game. Except we're not totally divorced from the GAA in our brains yet - and we like players to "get stuck in"!

[old git]

delighted with the result it really shows how much better spanish league is compared to english.
man utd- lack of effort, lack of a good midfielder rooney really bad ronaldo god bless him he will be on his bike.
barcelona pique excellent 5million from manure eat that fergie, iniesta free xavi free busquets free ferguson good manager with loads of money to spend.
Forza barca

pique an excellent 5 milion from manure ... the same manure who got pique for nothing from barcelona :confused:

[old git]

Oh ffs http://forum.football365.com/images/smiley_icons/post-5758-1225601204.gif

jebus ... if you are watching f a cup final today .. please comment on essiens attempt to amputate fellini leg early in the game not even a card from referee.. :mad: so look another midfielder who cannot tackle :D

[shakermaker1982]

No, most of their attacks come from the middle, with xavi and iniesta running through. Then they either play a through ball to E'too, or messi and henry come from the flanks. Most of the attacking they do they do down the wings originates with alves or abidal. And not often do they cross the ball. No way in hell is the bit in bold true. Have you been watching barca all year or just guessing?

just spotted this. Apologies for the late reply.

I've seen Barca live on two occasions in the last 12 months thank you very much :p

When I mentioned danger from out wide I meant they'd 'normally' get the ball out to Henry and Messi who would then look to cut inside. I've mentioned that already in another post. I did not refer to them as a traditional 'wide' team with traditional wingers. Messi & Henry start out in wide positions. If the guardian chalkboard covered Barca games I'm sure it would show lots of completed passes to Messi/Henry who start out in wide positions, cut inside and create chances or score goals. However in the Champions League Final Barca seemed to change it up by mostly working through the centre and played much more narrower which I think surprised Fergie. They hardly used that ball out wide to Eto/Henry (Messi was mainly down the middle). That was the point I was trying to make.

[OwlsFan]

6 match suspension for Drogba, with 2 suspended.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/teams/c/chelsea/8043277.stm

The fine is paultry (a day's wages).