Catholic Primary Schools [Archive]

Shilts

17/04/2009, 2:52 PM

How would you get the schools off the church? Don't they own a lot of the buildings? Maybe the state should have taken school assts off the church in exchange for abuse victim payments?

US system seems a bit strange given they appear to be one of the most fundamental religious socities in the West.

As we pay for the teachers salaries 100% the church could not run the schools without the state's help.

The US is only religious in the bible belt - most of the big cities New York, LA etc are not very religious at all. But the no prayers rule or any mention of gods is strictly enforced in ALL state schools. If you want your children to be taught the teachings of your particular beliefs then you would send them to sunday school or something along those lines run by your fundamentalist friends.

Mr A

17/04/2009, 2:55 PM

Absolutely agree. Religious stuff has no place in state primary schools. Many parents end up letting their kids go through the BS surrounding communion etc because it's hard to explain to a young child that they're going to be excluded what is a core activity for the best part of a year.

If people care that much let them send their kids to Sunday School or some such, the state shouldn't be funding and encouraging this stuff.

Macy

17/04/2009, 3:00 PM

How would you get the schools off the church? Don't they own a lot of the buildings? Maybe the state should have taken school assts off the church in exchange for abuse victim payments?
Most schools are owned, built and paid for by the state. There may be issues over some land (but it was usually donated for schools anyway).

All state schools should be none or multi-demoninational. However, the more pressing issue with is primary schools being able to select on the basis of religion. Parents are forced to christain children, and in some cases be seen to be active in the church just to ensure their children get into their 100% state funded local primary school.

The parish priest shouldn't be an automatic chair of the board of management either, as they are then in a position to influence hiring and firing of teachers based on religious beliefs rather than the standard of teacher.

osarusan

17/04/2009, 3:04 PM

http://www.secularism.org.uk/irelandshouldhavemoresecularscho.html

Ireland should open more multi-faith or secular schools to reflect the country’s growing diversity due to recent immigration, a European Commission anti-racism body said on Thursday. Fully 98 percent of Irish primary schools are still run by the Catholic Church and pupils who do not take part in religious rites "feel singled out", it wrote in a report on Ireland.

Not the most unbiased of sources, admittedly.

Macy

17/04/2009, 3:06 PM

Whatever about bias, it's there or thereabouts on the number of primary schools controlled by the church.

shantykelly

17/04/2009, 3:40 PM

what is this, kick christianity month? sorry, remind me again what the nominal religious breakdown of ireland is?

Parents are forced to christain children, and in some cases be seen to be active in the church just to ensure their children get into their 100% state funded local primary school

and your source for this is...

The US is only religious in the bible belt - most of the big cities New York, LA etc are not very religious at all. But the no prayers rule or any mention of gods is strictly enforced in ALL state schools. If you want your children to be taught the teachings of your particular beliefs then you would send them to sunday school or something along those lines run by your fundamentalist friends

yes, because the USA's social model is really something we should be trying to emulate. and since when did being a practising Christian result in you being labelled a fundamentalist? i could similarily describe all the self-anointed atheists on here as immoral, hell bound blasphemers and heretics. but i dont, because i dont care enough about them.

Anyone else think that the Irish Republic's primary schools should all be non-denominational?
The US system of banning all talk of gods and religion has to be the way forward for our country.

you devise an alternative moral code then that people will actually adhere to, and put it to the country. would be interesting to see the results of such a vote.

Shilts

17/04/2009, 4:05 PM

shantykelly

17/04/2009, 4:25 PM

Shantkelly

What are you afraid of? You can still bring your children up according to your beliefs (just outside school). What I am suggesting is that the state should not have anything to do with religious education. This is the case in the US. You went on about moral codes - well I think it's immoral to brainwash any children with religious ideas.

Should the state be responsible for religious education? In my opinion - No.
Why do you think that the status quo is better?

Do you feel that we should drum catholicism into everybody as was the case in the recent past? Do you feel that catholicism has a special place in state affairs? How should non-catholics be treated in your system?

i was educated in a ccms primary school and a catholic-ethos secondary school. the education i received prepared me for a number of challenges in life, physically, mentally and spiritually. a core element of that catholic education was the examination of other belief systems, both christian and non-christian. i feel that i am better for this, especially in the society in which i live. i encountered many people at university who received state educations (NI-style) with little or no religious or moral instruction. as such, these people that i encountered, i found, were more prone to sectarianism and other such hallmarks of the sub-educated, some of which was directed at me. comparably, some of the soundest fellas i meet at uni were educated either by christian brothers, or priests or attended the protestant equivalent.

i, nor any of my siblings, have ever had catholicism drummed into us, nor did my parents. my paternal grandmother was an honest-to-engels communist, and yet my father is a practising catholic. at 26 years of age, i feel more than equipped to make up my own mind with regard to my life, especially in regard to my spirituality. i dont feel that simply erasing all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere is an entirely good idea. if thats the route that people want to pursue, then dont take easter holidays, dont take christmas holidays, and dont take st patricks day off. all christian events, the understanding of which is first instilled in school. to do so whilst simultaneously removing all religious instruction is nothing short of hyprocrisy.

as for the place of christianity in state affairs? i would like to see more of our political, social and economic leaders applying a bit more of christ's teachings to their everyday actions. the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ. you name a comparable moral and ethics code that encompasses all of it, and ill consider it.

as for 'my' system's treatment of non-catholics? pretty much the same as the treatment meted out to catholics. any different would be wrong. i dont think that the current system is brilliant, and it could probably, like most systems, be improved. but to scarp religious instruction altogether is simply throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

this mb seems to be getting quite good at the catholic/christian bashing. good to see so much rational, reasoned debate going about the pro's and cons of religious education. religion bad, atheism good!

Edit: as for religious instruction being brainwashing? by that veiwpoint, you could argue that all religious, political and philosphical instruction is just brainwashing. i mean, it all basically boils down to systems of belief, doesnt it?

osarusan

17/04/2009, 4:43 PM

A fair post Shantykelly, I have a few questions about the section below.

as for 'my' system's treatment of non-catholics? pretty much the same as the treatment meted out to catholics. any different would be wrong.

Should schools spend as much time preparing a non-Catholic student for their respective cermeonies as they do with Catholic students?

Should the school board comprise members of other religions, just like the Catholic priest often has a place on the board?

adamd164

17/04/2009, 5:28 PM

the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ. you name a comparable moral and ethics code that encompasses all of it, and ill consider it.
What absolute nonsense.

It's often said that Christ's values hold true regardless of whether we accept him as the son of god, but that's nonsense. CS Lewis, who is nowadays the poster boy of Christian apology, rightly admitted that christ presents us with two scenarios and no middle ground in between. Those of us who don't accept his divinity simply cannot find morality in the idea of a regular man forgiving crimes committed by others against others: this is positively unjust and immoral. So if the man was not divine, he was downright wicked.

To a non-religious person then, Christ's teachings are bunkum. And I've never had so much as a speeding ticket to my name; so where does that leave me morally?

Our morality and ethics are cultural and culturally relevant. They are not the exclusive domain of any section of society and not derived from religious dogma.

Edit: as for religious instruction being brainwashing? by that veiwpoint, you could argue that all religious, political and philosphical instruction is just brainwashing. i mean, it all basically boils down to systems of belief, doesnt it?
And since when are kids told which political ideologies they should favour in Irish primary schools?

dahamsta

17/04/2009, 7:18 PM

Whatever about the teachings of Christ, the Catholic church isn't in a position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.

brianw82

17/04/2009, 7:41 PM

Whatever about the teachings of Christ, the Catholic church isn't in a position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.

Aye. Bosom buddies with the German Nazis in the '30s and all. Where was the church's "morals" then?

the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ.

No, it doesn't. The moral zeitgeist is completely unrelated to the bible. It is not acceptable to be racist these days. It was accepted 50 years ago. The bible was the same then as it is now.

Back on topic, yes I agree that schools should not be run by religions. I do not believe in teaching children untruths, and this is what religion is.

dahamsta

17/04/2009, 11:02 PM

Aye. Bosom buddies with the German Nazis in the '30s and all. Where was the church's "morals" then?If you mean helping Nazis to escape after the war, that was in the 40s. And it was more than half a century ago. I'm talking about modern issues, like protecting child molestors, and sitting on billions* of euros worth of "relics" in Vatican City while reaching their paws out to their supporters for more, many of whom can hardly afford to feed themselves.

adam

* Trillions?

Bald Student

17/04/2009, 11:44 PM

I think the government is in no position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.

John83

18/04/2009, 12:14 AM

I think the government is in no position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics.
I don't think Mary Harney's in any position to lecture anyone on healthy eating. I'd still rather that the state ran public information programs in that than, say, McDonalds.

Bald Student

18/04/2009, 12:29 AM

I don't think Mary Harney's in any position to lecture anyone on healthy eating. I'd still rather that the state ran public information programs in that than, say, McDonalds.How about we let the parents decide?

I can continue listing the failings of the state if you like, I'm pretty sure I can trump anything McDonalds did.

Lionel Ritchie

18/04/2009, 10:03 AM

How about we let the parents decide?
How about giving them a viable choice? I live in a city of 90,000 that has just one educate together school and one non-RC (CoI ...but effectively secular) secondary school.

I can continue listing the failings of the state if you like, I'm pretty sure I can trump anything McDonalds did.

I think the government is in no position to lecture anyone about morals and ethics....hmmm, I'm not fond of the institutions of this state or of MacDonalds. But I'm sure enough both of them would pass on the opportunity to tell little girls that's it's a more noble and saintly option to chuck themselves on a pitchfork or opt for alternate suicide by proxy than it is for them to submit to durty, durty tings like sexual assault. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Goretti

I'd also reckon I'd get a more balanced version of events from either of the former when describing the activities of tax-dodging kidnapper and soon to be saint "Mother" Teresa -or her long since turned to dust colleague, snake-oil salesman (AND champion karaoke singer ...Everly Brothers every time) and two-bit conman Padre Pio.

i was educated in a ccms primary school and a catholic-ethos secondary school. the education i received prepared me for a number of challenges in life, physically, mentally and spiritually. a core element of that catholic education was the examination of other belief systems, both christian and non-christian. :D I remember it well from our RE classes. Now kids here's a brief synopsis of why all other faiths are wrong, wrong, wrong. Indian people worship 8-legged elephants ...seriously... aren't they mad or what?

i feel that i am better for this, especially in the society in which i live. i encountered many people at university who received state educations (NI-style) with little or no religious or moral instruction. as such, these people that i encountered, i found, were more prone to sectarianism and other such hallmarks of the sub-educated, some of which was directed at me. ...maybe they harbour deep-rooted, sectarian, predjudices against retentive, conceited people.:o

i dont feel that simply erasing all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere is an entirely good idea. if thats the route that people want to pursue, then dont take easter holidays, dont take christmas holidays, and dont take st patricks day off. all christian events, the understanding of which is first instilled in school. . Easter and Christmas are ancient holiday times predating christianity. The christian element is entirely tacked on. Patricks day is a state holiday ...though I think we should get rid of it and throw our lot in with the nordies ...make July 12th the national holiday. Nicer weather around then.

I've no interest in removing "all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere " by the way. I'd like it out of the ethos, enrollment and employment policies of schools though.

Parents are forced to christain children, and in some cases be seen to be active in the church just to ensure their children get into their 100% state funded local primary school. ...True and an absolute scandal in this day and age.

The parish priest shouldn't be an automatic chair of the board of management either, as they are then in a position to influence hiring and firing of teachers based on religious beliefs rather than the standard of teacher. I happen to know a couple of teachers who live in very real terror, again in this day and age at the end of the first decade of the 21st century, that the religious cohort in the school board that employ them will discover they are cohabiting. One gets their post sent to a parents address. It's a situation replicated right across the state apparently.

thischarmingman

18/04/2009, 11:40 AM

Lional Richie said most of what I wanted to say but just a couple of points. Funnily enough I was just reminded about this yesterday when I was pleasantly surprised to see these posters on the DART- http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/0404/1224244010471_1.jpg

the basis of our morality comes from the teachings of christ. you name a comparable moral and ethics code that encompasses all of it, and ill consider it….

So if Jesus hadn’t come along we’d all be killing one another? We wouldn’t have any respect for one another? You don’t think humankind would have/already had come to the conclusion that maybe things would function rather better if they didn’t go around killing one another for the most part? I’m an atheist but I seem to get along fine. Of course, if the only reason you’re not going around committing crimes is because you’re afraid you’re not going to get into heaven that’s a different story. Not to mention how it devalues life as some sort of rehearsal for what comes after. But what a horrible idea- that we wouldn’t have a moral compass unless it was for a heavenly reward or fear of hell!

this mb seems to be getting quite good at the catholic/christian bashing. good to see so much rational, reasoned debate going about the pro's and cons of religious education. religion bad, atheism good!

I'm just totally fed up, as I suspect others are also, with 'understanding' the beliefs of the faithful. I'm fed up with tip-toeing around religious attitudes. If you want to believe in virgin births, raising from the dead, heaven and hell, saints and miracles, an infallible pope in Rome, and the teachings of a 2000 year old collection of mis-informed, superstitious, contradictory, sexist, homophobic, violent writing, then by all means believe in them. Go for it, whatever you need to believe in. But don't expect me not to laugh at them and ridicule them and think worse of you for believing in them. It's nonsense and it's unfair for you to say people on this forum who disagree wth you are simply following a 'religion bad, atheism good' argument- there are not two separate, but equally valid choices between atheism and Christianity so don't pretend they're on an equal footing.

i mean, it all basically boils down to systems of belief, doesnt it?

Again, not all beliefs are equally valid. Some are more so than others.

thischarmingman

18/04/2009, 12:15 PM

Some time could be given during the week for the local rabbi, druid, mullah or priest to come into the school and preach their thing.

I've no interest in removing "all public reference to religion, be it in school, in work, or elsewhere " by the way. I'd like it out of the ethos, enrollment and employment policies of schools though.

I agree totally with the idea that children should be taught about world religions, if only so that they can appreciate much of the great art, music and literature produced in the name of, or inspired by, or in response to, religious belief. It's important to understand where we came from and the different systems of belief, not so much because you can then evaluate the differences between them, but so that you can see the similarities and the needs humankind has had over the past few thousand years and so begin to appreciate our common humanity.

dahamsta

18/04/2009, 12:21 PM

thischarmingman, "rubbish" isn't an acceptable argument in here. Keep the rhetoric to yourself please.

thischarmingman

18/04/2009, 12:23 PM

thischarmingman, "rubbish" isn't an acceptable argument in here. Keep the rhetoric to yourself please.

This is true, edited. :)

37Beour

18/04/2009, 7:40 PM

I just found this thread and it is extremely interesting with great arguments put forward so far...

From my viewpoint I don't think there is a problem in the way religion is taught in primary or secondary schools for that matter. Fair enough in primary it is 'mandatory' to make your communion and confirmation but realisticly how many kids actually know what these occassions are about?! And yes this then leads to argument should the children be participating in such 'ceremonies' when they don't fully understand what they are?! The majority of parents are Roman Catholic and want/expect their kids to follow in their religious paths. The same occurs in secondary school with school masses and the graduation ceremonies usually has a mass.

Most children/teens these days don't really give thought about religion. Fact. And if they do, I think they would be more than capable in exploring different religions because now more than ever there is exposure of other religion instead of Roman Catholic dominance particulary with access to internet etc. Personally, after a couple of dramatic few months I started reading the Bible. Not a deeply religious person at all but I figured billions of people believe in the writings of this book and I wanted to more or less see whats in it. My point being that I am taking it upon myself to see what being Catholic is and I think the youth of our nation can do the same when they reach that point in their lives.

Just my lil thoughts on the debate:o

Macy

20/04/2009, 8:21 AM

and your source for this is...
It's in the news every year when it comes to enrolment time, and at the start of the school term. Religious schools are exempt from equality legislation, and over 90% of state funded schools claim to be Catholic ethos and can therefore legally discriminate. Fall out with the local PP, and have your children blocked from attending the local national school. It is that fear that stops any local campaign's to get them changed over to secular/ non denomination. Try and fail - have it taken out on your child(ren). We're still ruled by fear of the Church in some elements of our society.

Given the falling attendances, and even less following the actual teachings of the church faithfully, there's no justification for over 90% of primary schools being catholic.

btw It didn't help that out population exploded when we had a supposedly card carrying opus dei member as Minister for Education...

Shilts

20/04/2009, 10:11 AM

Some very good posts here.
The problem at the moment is that the majority (Roman Catholics) do not see anything wrong with the status quo. They think that its ok to send the atheists kid to a corner with a book while the teacher spends tax payers money telling 'fairy tales' as truths.

Kids of the non-catholics are made to feel outcasts in their own community. This is wrong!

This is not a million miles away from the 'divorce debate' we had in this country not too long ago. "Why do we need divorce? shur most people don't need it".

We need to stand up for the minorities as has happened with divorce and the smoking ban (slightly different).

Catholics can still have their kids taught about that stuff, just not in schooltime and not by civil servants (teachers).

If you were an employee of say the Planning Department of Cork County Council and you were not a Catholic, but every morning the head of the department came in and got everyone to join him in vocal prayer - there would be murder and rightly so!!!
Yet people think that its ok for kids to be exposed to this kind of fundamentalism (no apologies for using this word!) daily!

Everybody has an opinion and maybe I'm the one thats out of line. But if you disagree with me, think of your catholic child in a state funded muslim school. How happy would you be with that? :)

micls

20/04/2009, 11:42 AM

How about we let the parents decide?

That would be fine if they all had a choice. The vast majority don't as the only school in a commutable distance is RC.

Shantykelly-Buddha was saying the same stuff Jesus said before him. BOth were imo very smart men and most of what they said was simply common sense and decency. You dont need to believe in the religious aspects to have morals. Fact is most who claim to be Catholics in this country, arent. And if it were up to them and their parish to prepare the kids for communion, rather than the teachers, there would be a lot fewer communions and confirmations.

Educate together schools teach the learn together program, in which they teach about all religions(without pushing any) and a moral curriculum. Imo it is the ideal curriculum for primary school.

If there was a multidenominational school in every locality then parents can choose to send their kids to RC schools if they want and I wouldnt have a problem, Its the lack of choice I have a problem with.

pete

20/04/2009, 1:27 PM

Can primary schools decriminate when hiring teachers? I think I teachers need a separate qualification for teaching religion? Do primary schools have a religion curriculum?

micls

20/04/2009, 2:44 PM

Can primary schools decriminate when hiring teachers?
Yes, I can technically be fired for being an atheist. As can anyone who goes against the ethos of the school(someone gay or someone living with a partner while unmarried).

I think I teachers need a separate qualification for teaching religion?
Yes, a diploma in religion

Do primary schools have a religion curriculum?

Yes, the Alive-O curriculum. Even from a religious view its a ridiculous curriculum. An example being that in the 5th class one, under the chapter about prophets, Bono is named as a modern day one.

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

pete

20/04/2009, 2:52 PM

I am surprised there have not been any discrimination cases in the courts regarding primary schools. That said I believe the Church of Ireland favour the status quo.

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

Maybe theology will the boom industry of the Tiger Part II. :eek:

micls

20/04/2009, 3:03 PM

I am surprised there have not been any discrimination cases in the courts regarding primary schools.
Schools, hospitals and churches are exempt from the equality legislation.

adamd164

20/04/2009, 3:59 PM

Equal Status Act 2000.

Barrosso was going to push the government about it pre-Lisbon treaty but they backed down at the eleventh hour over fears the church would tell their flock to vote no.

Also, to challenge it as an Irish citizen, you need to exhaust all domestic legal avenues first before taking it to the European Justice Court. Expensive process!

pete

20/04/2009, 4:05 PM

Barrosso was going to push the government about it pre-Lisbon treaty but they backed down at the eleventh hour over fears the church would tell their flock to vote no.

Not saying the government did not back down but do the Cathloic church have the power to get their flock to do anything? Maybe perception out of tune with reality?

I don't think the church have instructed their members to vote any direction in recent years?

Mr A

20/04/2009, 4:48 PM

Religion is allocated 30 minutes a day, more time than every subject bar english, Irish and maths.

Holy crap- that is totally outrageous! What a scandalous waste of public money.

adamd164

20/04/2009, 5:46 PM

Not saying the government did not back down but do the Cathloic church have the power to get their flock to do anything? Maybe perception out of tune with reality?
I think you're being a bit naive there. There are still large sections of the population who'll pay heed to what the parish priest does or does not reckon to be a good idea when it comes to voting time. Largely older generation, true, but they knew that every vote would count.

It doesn't necessarily have to be preached directly during sermons either - if the EU ****ed off the Catholic Church, Ltd as an entity (a business, I'd prefer to call it, but whatever your inclination) prior to a referendum of that magnitude, and the CCL were expressing their disappointment with the system and how it's secularising and materialising cat-lick Ireland, that'd do just as well for arousing suspicion and distrust of a united Europe and where we were heading among said voting demographic.

Bald Student

21/04/2009, 1:40 AM

That would be fine if they all had a choice. The vast majority don't as the only school in a commutable distance is RC.There seem to be schools of thought about it. Some believe that we should swap from an almost entirely catholic system to and almost entirely secular one. I'd be of the other point of view, that we should have more choice rather than replacing one uniform system with another.

Block G Raptor

21/04/2009, 3:30 PM

Buddha was saying the same stuff Jesus said before him. BOth were imo very smart men and most of what they said was simply common sense and decency..

just as Bob Geldof and to a lesser degree John Lennon in our generation,
good men who used their fame to espose a message of good will to and an effort to help others less fortunate than us. who knows in 2000 years time maybe history will be so distorted that Sir Bob will be god :)

Lionel Ritchie

22/04/2009, 8:10 AM

just as Bob Geldof and to a lesser degree John Lennon in our generation,
good men who used their fame to espose a message of good will to and an effort to help others less fortunate than us. who knows in 2000 years time maybe history will be so distorted that Sir Bob will be god :)

Now that'd be funny ...a God who reckoned his own existence was very improbable.

SÓC

22/04/2009, 11:27 AM

I find a lot of the post here interesting.

A lot of broad sweeping statements and half truths.

The Churches own the land that most schools are built on (btw the figure of 98% of schools being Catholic is wrong, nearer to 91% although the figure for Catholic and CoI would be near enough to 98%). The Churches funded part of the building of these schools. The Churchs fund part of the running of these schools. By law in Ireland schools can discrimiate in recruitment and enrollment on grounds of religion. Thats the way it is.

For a long long time the various religions/churches bailed the government out of having to provide for education properly. Its not their fault that they want to maintain their own ethos nor is it their fault that the state has failed to provide an alternative.

If you think the bank bailout costs money try to make all the schools secular. That'd be one hell of a CPO bill:eek:

dahamsta

22/04/2009, 11:34 AM

You're right, but the Church educates in order to "educate". That's why they got into the business, and it needs to stop, even if it's a gradual process. The entire education system is up in a heap because of their inability and unwillingness to cooperate, with each other and with "outsiders". If education doesn't work, the country doesn't work.

micls

22/04/2009, 11:39 AM

I find a lot of the post here interesting.

A lot of broad sweeping statements and half truths.

The Churches own the land that most schools are built on
This percentage is falling though. Very few newer schools are built on church land, mine being one of them

The Churches funded part of the building of these schools.
Do you have figures for this? Depends on the school I suppose but I dont know of many newer schools where this is the case

The Churchs fund part of the running of these schools.
Does it? It doesnt in our place anyway. What kind of funding are you talking about

nor is it their fault that the state has failed to provide an alternative.
I completely agree, I blame the state not the Church.

A start would be that new school which are 100% funded and paid for by the state are not automatically labelled Catholic schools as happens with themajority

Macy

22/04/2009, 1:21 PM

btw the figure of 98% of schools being Catholic is wrong, nearer to 91% although the figure for Catholic and CoI would be near enough to 98%
So, the vast majority, which ever way you look at it?

The Churches own the land that most schools are built on
I think control would be more appropriate. A lot of the land was donated for schools, with control given to the Church. All came from the community in donations of some shape or form anyway.

The Churches funded part of the building of these schools.
Maybe some of the older schools, but not in any great way in recent times. The Department of Education generally owns the school.

The Churchs fund part of the running of these schools.
Do they? Wouldn't be my experience at all - "voluntary" contributions from parents and fund raising is where extra money comes from. Although I wouldn't be surprised if in some areas this is done via the parish and dressed up as Church funding.

By law in Ireland schools can discriminate in recruitment and enrollment on grounds of religion. Thats the way it is.
No one disputed that is the case. People are disputing whether that should be the case in state funded schools.

For a long long time the various religions/churches bailed the government out of having to provide for education properly. Its not their fault that they want to maintain their own ethos nor is it their fault that the state has failed to provide an alternative.
That hasn't been the case for a very long time. It was also the case with care homes, look how successful that was, and how we've moved away from that model. The state hasn't provided an alternative because too often they are not separated from the church. Hanafin, for example, wasn't going to go against the church.

If you think the bank bailout costs money try to make all the schools secular. That'd be one hell of a CPO bill:eek:
It would cost very little. Just change the equality laws and they couldn't discriminate. Surely the Church wouldn't object, seeing how it is only interested in educating children rather than indoctrinating them?

pete

22/04/2009, 1:30 PM

If you think the bank bailout costs money try to make all the schools secular. That'd be one hell of a CPO bill:eek:

Maybe it could be done gradually by not funding the bulding of any new religious schools. As I mentioned above the state could have taken school property in lieu of abuse victim compenation bail out of the Church.

Macy

22/04/2009, 1:54 PM

Maybe it could be done gradually by not funding the bulding of any new religious schools. As I mentioned above the state could have taken school property in lieu of abuse victim compenation bail out of the Church.
imo it should be a given about future schools. However, why would the state take it's own buildings as compensation?

SÓC

22/04/2009, 2:19 PM

New schools are different but as we know the vast majority of schools are older building.

I know that two Parishes which I have lived in and been involved in (One in suburban South County Dublin, the Other on the Western Side of Cork City) the Church gave existing Church land for the building of the local schools. Not community land entrusted to them or the likes but land that was in use by the Church for year and years before they ever built schools there. The same Churches made contributions to the building of said schools (off the top of my head I cannot remember the exact figure, I think it was 15% of the capital cost).

Both Parishes continue to give funding to the schools on a regular basis from Parish funds. Its my understanding that these two Parishes are not unique and that these practices are carried out elsewhere too. Perhaps the situation might be different in rural communities.

It would cost very little. Just change the equality laws and they couldn't discriminate. Surely the Church wouldn't object, seeing how it is only interested in educating children rather than indoctrinating them?

The Churches dont claim to be in the schools merely to educate children in a secular manner. They are there to offer religious education. They are quite clear on this as per their own rules;

Rule 68 of the 1965 Rules for National School:
“Of all the parts of a school curriculum Religious Instruction is by far the most important, as its subject-matter, God’s honour and service, includes the proper use of all man’s faculties, and affords the most powerful inducements to their proper use. Religious instruction is, therefore, a fundamental part of the school course, and a religious spirit should inform and vivify the whole work of the school.”

Macy

22/04/2009, 2:23 PM

SÓC

22/04/2009, 2:29 PM

And that's exactly why they shouldn't be state funded. If parents what that to be the most important aspect of the primary education system, they should either fund it themselves or do it outside of school hours. As I've said, as simple change to the equality laws would do the job, without requiring any transfer of ownership, if it is an issue (as that wouldn't be my experience).

But then you could lead yourself to a situation like the UK adoption mess.

Like it or not the Churches in the majoity of cases own the land and in many cases the schools themselves. The Irish State's own failing has lead to the situation where they have to allow the discrimination because of the fear that the various Churches wont play ball. Like I said the Churches (just like any other organisation) are in it for their own reasons.

Macy

22/04/2009, 2:45 PM

But then you could lead yourself to a situation like the UK adoption mess.
Sorry, you've lost me? Although I suspect it'll be something homophobic.

Like it or not the Churches in the majoity of cases own the land and in many cases the schools themselves. The Irish State's own failing has lead to the situation where they have to allow the discrimination because of the fear that the various Churches wont play ball. Like I said the Churches (just like any other organisation) are in it for their own reasons.
The Irish State's failing is that too often the Government has been too tied to the Church and hasn't taken this on. 30 years ago you could've been saying the same about Care Homes and the way we dealt with unmarried mothers. Luckily, we've moved on from those Church abuses of it's position too, and we should from this one.