Northern Ireland

[Gather round]

also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week

To be honest it irritates me too. I accept a lot of NI fans support Rangers (as I'll admit I did as I kid until I realised the Old Firm's wider malign influence), but I wish they'd leave it at home for international games.


I think it's a heart v head thing. I can sit here now and say that I want the north to qualify for the next WC, but come the next match I'm watching, I won't really. I will want them to lose. I don't know what it is that stops me from supporting them. I'd guess that things I that I feel negatively about generally (NI flag*, the Windsor/Linfield connection, anthem, people cheering when the scores are announced and the south are losing, down to little things like people using the word 'Ulster' instead of 'NI') are associated with NI matches, and this can make me feel somewhat alienated from, and not entirely a part of, what NI team represents

Fair points. Although normally I favor the underdog team when NI aren't playing, I do sometimes instinctively find myself relieved when the Republic slip up, and to a lesser extent Scotland.

[geysir]

Don't most NI fans just cheer England at the WC or EC finals?

[Gather round]

Don't most NI fans just cheer England at the WC or EC finals?

Not at the last one :p

I certainly don't (unless, as above, they're clearly the underdog). Obviously a proportion do, but I'd be surprised if it was a majority.

[DeLorean]

also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week). It was a minority, but a big enough minority to make me feel alienated from the NI team.


To be honest it irritates me too. I accept a lot of NI fans support Rangers (as I'll admit I did as I kid until I realised the Old Firm's wider malign influence), but I wish they'd leave it at home for international games.

To be fair the Republic fans are just as guilty in this respect. Remember when they were booing "Lovenkrands" in a friendly match...and it turned out not to be him, muppets!!

The way I look at it there are a lot of idiots in the world. At a guess I would say the ratio would be 5:1 in favour of non-idiots (admittedly not much time dedicated to coming up with that result). That still leaves a nice few thousand at a football match letting the side down.

[EalingGreen]

No, wasn't at the game or subsequent ones where he [Neil Lennon] played. I do realise it was the work of a few, but I thought we were past that. It maybe annoyed me more than it didn't matter what his religion was to these people, it was because he played for Celtic (also annoys me that Boruc got so much attention the other week). It was a minority, but a big enough minority to make me feel alienated from the NI team. (BTW, I'm aware of the Celtic-fest that sometimes surrounds southern games, which is why I'm reluctant to travel to away games)I respect the sincerity of your posts on this subject. The whole Lennon affair was obviously alienating for a whole lot of potential NI fans like yourself, as well as the player himself (obviously), which I greatly regret and deplore.
Sadly, the general impression has formed, prompted as I see it by the teams detractors, via a lazy or biased media, that "the NI fans hounded out Lennon because he was a Catholic/Nationalist/Celt etc"
Yet there is an additional story behind the whole business, which never gets told. I wasn't at the original Norway game where Lennon was booed (his first NI cap since signing for Celtic), but my brothers were.
The booing was by their reckoning the work of a small minority (10%?) of the crowd, almost all congregated on the Kop. No-one can verify this, but there is a strong suspicion that these were Rangers/Linfield fans, who may not even have been regular NI fans, but who had turned up especially for this game.
In a 3/4 empty stadium, for a game where we were getting humped by a mediocre Norway team, there was virtually no atmosphere, so the boo-boys' efforts were all the more amplified (this was the Sammy McIlroy era, when we were utter sh1te).
And I suspect McIlroy mishandled the situation, by substituting NL at half time, rather than marching the whole team out together for the 2nd half and facing the boo-boys down.
Anyhow, after an otherwise meaningless and crap game, the booing got all the attention from the media (understandable, I suppose, but no less annoying).
However, what wasn't reported was what happened next. For NL continued to play for NI, including the next home game v Ukraine. In my own case, the chance to show my support for him was the deciding factor in my deciding to fly back to Belfast for that game.
Which I'm glad I did, because the boo boys were now nowhere to be seen/heard - in fact, NL was cheered everytime he touched the ball.
Was this reported in the Press? Was it fcuk! :mad:
Anyhow, the whole thing was beginning to die down, until another episode occurred. Some Scotland-based NI fans went to an NI U-21 game (in Scotland) soon after. They bought some NL masks, and had a banner made up, stating "NI FANS SUPPORT NEIL LENNON".
The following weekend, the Scottish News of the World printed a photo of them with their banner, but deliberately cropped to exclude the "SUPPORT NEIL LENNON" part, under the headline "Neil Lennon Hate Mob".
Of course, the fans involved immediately threatened legal action, until the NOTW backed down and agreed to pay a five figure sum to a charity of the fans choice. However, they still made no effort to apologise properly and their "Correction" was tucked away where no-one would see it, weeks after the damage was done.
Anyhow, the general furore started to subside again, NL was continuing to play for NI without any fuss, when the next and final episode occurred. After McIlroy decided to make NL captain for a game, somebody in a housing estate in Rathcoole (I think) decided to phone a (non-coded) "Death Threat" to an NI newspaper. The whole thing blew up again, and on police advice, NL (understandably) decided it all wasn't "worth the candle" anymore.
Which is all that was needed for the media to dust off their "NI Fans threaten the life of their Star Player" headlines etc.
All this despite the fact that no-one has any idea whether the phone caller was even an NI fan.
Nor was there anything like the same fuss soon after when eg someone phoned a "death threat" directly to the Dublin Hotel Room of the Captain of the Australian International Rules Team, on the eve of their game with Ireland.
Do Chelsea fans still get tarnished since eg (so-called) Chelsea fans issued death-threats to refereee Anders Frisk after a Barcelona game, even in Sweden itself?
Do England fans still have to apologise for some racist sending a live bullet in the post to the home of Cyrille Regis, for "daring" to be black and play for his country?
Indeed, do Neil Lennon's own words, at an IFA "Football For All" Awards Night in 2007 ever get reported?
"Fans like Stewart [an award winner] are unsung heroes who have been brave enough to challenge sectarianism and who have actively created a more fun, safe and family orientated atmosphere at international games. [They] have made the atmosphere at Northern Ireland football games the envy of fans across not only Europe but world football. I would personally like to thank them for efforts."
Now I'm not claiming everything in the garden is now rosy - far from it - but I honestly believe the sh1t we NI fans have had to take over this matter is not only a fraction of the true story, but far out of proportion from what happens in football (and life) every day of the week.



I think it's a heart v head thing. I can sit here now and say that I want the north to qualify for the next WC, but come the next match I'm watching, I won't really. I will want them to lose.
I don't know what it is that stops me from supporting them. I'd guess that things I that I feel negatively about generally (NI flag*, the Windsor/Linfield connection, anthem, people cheering when the scores are announced and the south are losing, down to little things like people using the word 'Ulster' instead of 'NI') are associated with NI matches, and this can make me feel somewhat alienated from, and not entirely a part of, what NI team represents.Fair comment.



Maybe how I feel will change someday. Maybe not. But I'll keep trying.
Here's hoping.

[geysir]

The booing was by their reckoning the work of a small minority (10%?) of the crowd, almost all congregated on the Kop. No-one can verify this, but there is a strong suspicion that these were Rangers/Linfield fans, who may not even have been regular NI fans, but who had turned up especially for this game.
In a 3/4 empty stadium,
Not 1/2 full as reported?
Seeing as you have quoted Lennon elsewhere, why don't we let his his account and his Fathers stand?
Death threats made me put family before football (http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/2006/08/20/exclusive-death-threats-made-me-put-family-before-football-78057-17591672/)

"From the moment I went on to that pitch to play in the green and white colours of Northern Ireland, I was the target of an unremitting chorus of boos, jeers, catcalls and insults. In a half-empty stadium, the noise seemed to amplify and at times it seemed as though it was the only sound to be heard"
"It was premeditated by part of a hard core of the support which could not stomach seeing a Catholic Celtic player turning out for "their" country."


for a game where we were getting humped by a mediocre Norway team, there was virtually no atmosphere, so the boo-boys' efforts were all the more amplified (this was the Sammy McIlroy era, when we were utter sh1te).
Lennon was being booed even before the humping began.
The NI fans were cheering their team, then would stop to boo Lennon.


And I suspect McIlroy mishandled the situation, by substituting NL at half time, rather than marching the whole team out together for the 2nd half and facing the boo-boys down.

Belfast tele sportswriter
"It's little consolation that so many of the genuine home fans tried manfully but unsuccessfully to drown out the boring, predictable and unoriginal chants. The currency of a new 21stcentury Northern Ireland took a severe battering."

Neil´s Da
"But I would not go to Windsor Park last Wednesday night. Neil had far too much pressure already on his shoulders. There was talk pre-match of death threats, of him being singled out for special abuse. He did not want me to have to sit through that, to listen to all of that hatred.".
´ Instead, he waited at home. Inside the ground, he had friends placed at strategic positions. Every part of the stadium was covered by a network of mobile phones.
The constant messages they relayed back to the Lennon household in Lurgan made the father of the Northern Ireland International glad he was not there, to hear and watch as his son was treated to the modern day equivalent of human bear baiting.
A lot has been made in certain quarters about the support that Lennon got from the decent, and there are many, Northern Ireland supporters. But talk about the Billy Boo Boys and the sectarian chanters being a small vocal minority is nothing short of a disgraceful attempt to sanitise and distort the picture still being conveyed of football in the North.




Anyhow, after an otherwise meaningless and crap game, the booing got all the attention from the media (understandable, I suppose, but no less annoying).
Annoying ???
Lennon was already in the headlines as death threats were daubbed on walls, newspaper headlines,even some of the politicians were getting in on the pre game build up. It was only natural that the NI highest profile player getting roundly booed would hit the headlines, it would have been a major shock if any journalist who was there, was not sickened to their stomach.

Anyhow, the general furore started to subside again, NL was continuing to play for NI without any fuss, when the next and final episode occurred. After McIlroy decided to make NL captain for a game, somebody in a housing estate in Rathcoole (I think) decided to phone a (non-coded) "Death Threat" to an NI newspaper. The whole thing blew up again, and on police advice, NL (understandably) decided it all wasn't "worth the candle" anymore.
Which is all that was needed for the media to dust off their "NI Fans threaten the life of their Star Player" headlines etc.
There was no evidence that it was a football fan at all.

Please do not minimise the effect or reality of the death threat on Lennon at that time. He was a target for sick twisted minds as has been amply demonstrated time and time again. It seemed real enough to Neil at the time
"We were having our pre-match meal when two officers from the newly named Police Service of Northern Ireland arrived.
As soon as I heard there had been a phone call, I knew what it was and my heart sank into my boots.
I knew I was 'fair game' for any madman wanting to make a point and I had anticipated someone trying to get publicity for their 'cause' after it was announced that I would captain the side.
But I had not thought it would go as far as someone threatening my life."


Now I'm not claiming everything in the garden is now rosy - far from it - but I honestly believe the sh1t we NI fans have had to take over this matter is not only a fraction of the true story, but far out of proportion from what happens in football (and life) every day of the week.
The NI fans deserved every bit of the flak then, good fans suffered as well.

[SolitudeRed]

Just my thoughts on the issue but to me NI fans generally have a bigger thing about disliking the RoI. Most NI fans that I know would give off about them and would claim to support whoever they are playing often hear them slaging Gibson as well!

Generally RoI fans from the South wouldn't get too worked up about NI, I remember watching a Republic match in a bar down here and it came up on the screen that NI had scored in their game and people started cheering! somehow I doubt you would get that happening in a bar in East Belfast if the Republic had scored.

[Predator]

A large proportion of N.I. fans come across as extremely political - I know some people who were at Windsor Park for an under-age game and they felt they couldn't say their children's names because their names were Irish. Also, the N.I. fans were cheering when England scored, which is strange to say the least. They bring it upon themselves really and I agree fully with geysir about the Neil Lennon comments.

[Gather round]

Just my thoughts on the issue but to me NI fans generally have a bigger thing about disliking the RoI. Most NI fans that I know would give off about them and would claim to support whoever they are playing often hear them slaging Gibson as well!

Fair enough. I think there are clear reasons for this. But it hasn't always been thus, and may change again. If- for example- the two FAs- agreed not to pick players from each other's area, or at least not if they'd already played for the other's youth and U-21 teams :)

Not going to happen, you may say, and I'd probably agree. But if not, you can hardly be surprised at the stick.

I think Gibson's a good player and capable of establishing in both the English Prem and your midfield, by the way. But as he didn't want to play for us, bye bye.


Generally RoI fans from the South wouldn't get too worked up about NI, I remember watching a Republic match in a bar down here and it came up on the screen that NI had scored in their game and people started cheering! somehow I doubt you would get that happening in a bar in East Belfast if the Republic had scored

Hmm. They do get animated sometimes, though- such as every time someone starts a thread here suggesting an all-Ireland team (which of course basically means the NI team gets abolished or swallowed). There's always plenty of interest, not of all of it from the usual wind-ups.

Aren't there any bars left in the Short Strand? :) Nobody there, or in the unionist areas of east Belfast, is suggesting the Republic of Ireland loses its team. There's an obvious difference...

[Gather round]

A large proportion of N.I. fans come across as extremely political

See above for possible explanation?


I know some people who were at Windsor Park for an under-age game and they felt they couldn't say their children's names because their names were Irish

To be honest, they sound a bit oversensitive. Or maybe they're pulling your leg?


Also, the N.I. fans were cheering when England scored, which is strange to say the least. They bring it upon themselves really

Not sure what you're referring here, but the implication that NI fans tend to support England is wrong. Of course, as a largely successful country who to tend to qualify, and whose leagues dominate the local media, they have some fans in NI- but then the same applies in the Republic too. For example, RTE's advertising rates for England games are much higher than for any other foreign country. Because they attract a bigger audience (source: Ken Early, Newstalk 106, Dublin).


The NI fans deserved every bit of the flak then, good fans suffered as well

I hesitated before replying to this (when the intimidation of Lennon happened, I thought immediately that it would damage local football for years to come, and that still stands). I certainly don't downplay its effect then. But while I personally don't claim for one moment to have 'suffered', I think the flak was over the top. Contrary to what Lennon's father said, NI fans generally have not tried to sanitise- we accept where intimidation and prejudice existed and have tried to overcome it.

[Predator]

To be honest, they sound a bit oversensitive. Or maybe they're pulling your leg?

Possibly (although I doubt they'd 'pull my leg' over such an issue), but it is certainly an indication of how some people feel when they travel to Windsor Park, if even only for an amateur under-age game.




Not sure what you're referring here, but the implication that NI fans tend to support England is wrong. Of course, as a largely successful country who to tend to qualify, and whose leagues dominate the local media, they have some fans in NI- but then the same applies in the Republic too. For example, RTE's advertising rates for England games are much higher than for any other foreign country. Because they attract a bigger audience (source: Ken Early, Newstalk 106, Dublin).


I can't see how it can be wrong, when the guys in question, wearing N.I. jerseys, were cheering when the England youth team scored - my apologies if it came across as if I was speaking in general terms. I was in fact speaking about the same game that the people I know were at. But you have a point, it might not necessarily be an indication of the majority of supporters' allegiance.



If- for example- the two FAs- agreed not to pick players from each other's area, or at least not if they'd already played for the other's youth and U-21 teams

I understand your concern about that so-called 'agreement', but further developments had transpired after that and prior to the Gibson situation. I certainly would fully back any young man born on the island of Ireland, to decide what his national identity is, especially taking into account our unique history.

[Gather round]

Possibly (although I doubt they'd 'pull my leg' over such an issue), but it is certainly an indication of how some people feel when they travel to Windsor Park, if even only for an amateur under-age game

I've being going to games at Windsor since the early 70s and never had that sort of problem (although admittedly my real name is Billy :) ). More importantly, I've never seen nor heard anyone else experience it recently.


I can't see how it can be wrong, when the guys in question, wearing N.I. jerseys, were cheering when the England youth team scored

Sorry to be sceptical. I'd probably be a bit more convinced if you said you'd seen it yourself.


it might not necessarily be an indication of the majority of supporters' allegiance

It definitely isn't.


I understand your concern about that so-called 'agreement', but further developments had transpired after that and prior to the Gibson situation

See threads previously (and there are plenty). But I was just explaining here why Gibson gets stick and NI fans are whining. As I said, I don't agree with it, but neither of us can be surprised that it happens.


I certainly would fully back any young man born on the island of Ireland, to decide what his national identity is, especially taking into account our unique history

Good man. I've no problem with anyone's national identity, whether it's shared, or changed, or whatever. However, I do think that it's reasonable for

a) adult footballers to be able to play for only one country during their career, and

b) the age at which they're considered adult to be rather lower than it is now, ie 18.

[Den Perry]

Unless Mr. Perry prefers to "nitpick", so as to draw attention from my main point, which he still declines to address.

Namely, he uses a bunch of bigots in a sh1tty NI housing estate abusing some kids from a Dublin schoolboy team, as an excuse not to support the NI football team, despite the fact that this occurred at midnight, was nowhere near any football game and didn't involve any (identifiable) NI football fans.



Back to you, Den.

Please get your facts correct before attempting to interpret my argument....

Where did I mention midnight attack?or sh1tty council estate? The abuse was meted out by both adults and children before and during under16 games....perhaps this was an oversight on your part, or it could be that you are so argumentative you refuse to see the facts...

[Gather round]

OK Den, but the question remains- why do you think some abuse at a youth game (however unpleasant) is worse than a large minority of another country's support smashing up Lansdowne Road?

[Den Perry]

OK Den, but the question remains- why do you think some abuse at a youth game (however unpleasant) is worse than a large minority of another country's support smashing up Lansdowne Road?


GR, have you become EGs spokesman?:D

To answer your question? probably not, but the original question was to whether or not we would support NI. The abuse suffered at the Milk Cup was one of the reasons I gave....

[Gather round]

GR, have you become EGs spokesman?:D

To answer your question? probably not, but the original question was to whether or not we would support NI. The abuse suffered at the Milk Cup was one of the reasons I gave....


Think of me more as your editor, Den :)

Your original reply was that you would support any other team than NI. You then ignored later questions about why we were so much worse than other fans with a reputation for misbehaving at matches.

[Den Perry]

Think of me more as your editor, Den :)

Your original reply was that you would support any other team than NI. You then ignored later questions about why we were so much worse than other fans with a reputation for misbehaving at matches.

My reply is that I would still support any other team more than NI. My reasons I listed above.With regard to you're questions as to whether or not you are worse than any other fans - I would say some yes....others no.However, different situations affect people in different ways, and thus my experiences of NI fans mean I would support any other team opposing NI(possibly with the exception of Turkey....can't make my mind up on that one).

Perhaps if I suffer at the hands of, say, San Marino in the future I shall change my views

[Gather round]

I suppose I should be flattered, always assuming we can hold off the challenge from Turkey. Can I ask what bad experience you had watching them?

[Den Perry]

I suppose I should be flattered, always assuming we can hold off the challenge from Turkey. Can I ask what bad experience you had watching them?

Actually, I never experienced anything bad while following Ireland against Turkey. However a few friends told me that they were urinated on,from tiers above by home supporters at a Euro Qualifier for 1992 finals. Then, some years later in Izmir there was war where the fans invaded the pitch and Tony Cascarino got punched(though that might not be a bad thing lol). I suppose what really angers me is that the turks were responsible for some serious stuff and always seemed to get away with it...

However,I also had the lack of sense to travel with Leeds United to Istanbul in 2000 when the two Leeds fans were stabbed to death.

[EalingGreen]

Please get your facts correct before attempting to interpret my argument....

Where did I mention midnight attack?or sh1tty council estate? The abuse was meted out by both adults and children before and during under16 games....perhaps this was an oversight on your part, or it could be that you are so argumentative you refuse to see the facts...

My apologies - I thought you were referring to a (more recent?) incident loosely connected to the Milk Cup where some players from Cherry Orchard and another Dublin team were abused in their accommodation one evening by a group of local yobs from a nearby Council Estate. The Media, with typical lack of context, used the Milk Cup name to sensationalise the events when, in truth, the fact that it was a bunch of youth footballers was actually pretty irrelevant.

Anyhow, from your post, am I to take it that you consider verbal abuse of a sectarian nature etc, from some spectators at a youth tournament, to be greater excuse for not having anything to do with that countries football team than e.g. full-scale rioting (England) or "Welcome to Hell" etc (Turkey)?

If so, it seems to me you are being extremely discriminating (true sense of the word) in what it is which deters you, as against what it is you will tolerate, which was only my point from the very beginning.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what it is motivates that discrimination?

P.S. Do you happen to be a Leeds United fan, by any chance?

[geysir]

I hesitated before replying to this (when the intimidation of Lennon happened, I thought immediately that it would damage local football for years to come, and that still stands).
Hesitation, that's a sign of progress :)
There was an deep enough element of despair however it was a matter of time to realise that it was the morons who actually died their death then, not football.

I certainly don't downplay its effect then. But while I personally don't claim for one moment to have 'suffered', I think the flak was over the top. Contrary to what Lennon's father said, NI fans generally have not tried to sanitise- we accept where intimidation and prejudice existed and have tried to overcome it.
I would regard some of EG's account as delving into subtle forms of mild to medium sanitisation, not supported by the overall picture from Neil's own account and experience.
Neil's Da comments are an interesting perspective, but have to be naturally regarded as an unconditional subjective perspective.
Neil himself could differentiate between the football supporter and the morons who abused and threatened him.

If NI get through, I think in general people in the South would wish the team well. It was different in the past WCs, when personalities like Jennings, O'Neill and Whiteside were playing, most were already familiar with and respected them.

[Gather round]

Hesitation, that's a sign of progress :)

Don't start ;)

I meant that I've reacted often enough to the Lennon affair (including on here), but still now largely as I did then. So little to add. I've read Lennon's autobiog which I thought better than most of its type. If anything, what impressed me was how self-critical he was, particularly about his illness.


If NI get through, I think in general people in the South would wish the team well. It was different in the past WCs, when personalities like Jennings, O'Neill and Whiteside were playing, most were already familiar with and respected them

Indeed, our individual players (like yours, and Wales's) may be less well known now that fewer of them play in the English Prem.

Roll on June and September...and of course July, when there's a decent chance the Crues will be heading your way to take on the mighty Fram or Keflavik :)

[Den Perry]

My apologies - I thought you were referring to a (more recent?) incident loosely connected to the Milk Cup where some players from Cherry Orchard and another Dublin team were abused in their accommodation one evening by a group of local yobs from a nearby Council Estate. The Media, with typical lack of context, used the Milk Cup name to sensationalise the events when, in truth, the fact that it was a bunch of youth footballers was actually pretty irrelevant.

Anyhow, from your post, am I to take it that you consider verbal abuse of a sectarian nature etc, from some spectators at a youth tournament, to be greater excuse for not having anything to do with that countries football team than e.g. full-scale rioting (England) or "Welcome to Hell" etc (Turkey)?

If so, it seems to me you are being extremely discriminating (true sense of the word) in what it is which deters you, as against what it is you will tolerate, which was only my point from the very beginning.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what it is motivates that discrimination?

P.S. Do you happen to be a Leeds United fan, by any chance?

Apology accepted...perhaps I am discriminating, but am I not entitled to have my views? I personally feel (and there is no way of proving this...just my instinct and a few examples) that the vast majority of NI fans would rather we do poorly in our matches. Thus, I would most definitely not support them(unless I had money on them...which would be highly unlikely)

Its nothing personal against you EG (in fact I find some of your posts quite interesting) just a football rivalry thing I suppose.

BTW, what is the purpose of your question re whether or not I'm a Leeds fan?

[Hibernian]

(mods, maybe this can be made a poll?)

I remember watching the 86 World Cup in Mexico - its one of my earliest soccer memories - and I was cheering for Northern Ireland. I really wanted them to do well.

In the event that the North qualified for SA10 and we didnt would the posters here adopt them as their team to cheer on for the tournament? I know there are a few run ins with the nordie foot.ie posters here and i dont agree with a lot of their opinions but i for one would love to see them do well.

Who else here would cheer for them or who would like to see them get thrashed?

I would like to see them well if I am being honest. Dont get me wrong I suppose in way if they say got final im not sure I be rooting for them as much but at same time I wish them all the best and would not like see them get trashed.

Remember my dad on about 82 and 86 and he told me he was shouting for North..In way was surprised to see so many Irish supporting them at time but in fairness Bingham did not give dam what religion you were once he felt you were good enough that was that..

The famous meeting in November 93 I suppose changed that in way...I was only 11 at time so kind still did not understand the situation until later years but I do remember my dad being annoyed at how the players espcially Mcgrath (and Phelan i think) got treated

At end of day I think we all need to move on. The Northern fans are good decent fans just want what all ROI fans want and that is qualify for major competitions and dare I say win them :D..

There still a few that still put bad name on North which is shame but there only a handful and thats max. At end of day I have also seen couple Republic fans (actually there not fans there scumbags) who are no saints themselves..every country has them including our own but I am glad that the real ROI fans are ones who make our name as best supporters around remain at the very top.

[DeLorean]

At end of day I think we all need to move on.

It was well worth reading your long post for this sentence.

[EalingGreen]

Apology accepted...perhaps I am discriminating, but am I not entitled to have my views?Of course you are entitled to your views - just as I must be entitled to express my disapproval when your views appear to be influenced by prejudice and ignorance, rather than by purely objective, footballing factors.


I personally feel (and there is no way of proving this...just my instinct and a few examples) that the vast majority of NI fans would rather we do poorly in our matches.Not sure that it's the vast majority (though might be); anyhow, "I don't like them because they don't like us" is the basis of most footballing rivalries, and so long as that is not used as an excuse for excessive abuse of the other lot etc, it seems acceptable enough to me, I suppose.


Thus, I would most definitely not support them

Some revisionism going on here, I must say, for in an earlier post (#22), you explained your antipathy towards NI as follows:
"I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI"
No sign of anything about "NI fans wanting to see ROI teams lose" there...:rolleyes:



Its nothing personal against you EG (in fact I find some of your posts quite interesting) just a football rivalry thing I suppose.
Really? Care to explain this particular comment, then, also from post #22?
"I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI."
(On second thoughts, no explanation is necessary, since I'm just about managing to cope with the hurt ;))



BTW, what is the purpose of your question re whether or not I'm a Leeds fan?Simple enough, really. You have explained your disinclination to give any support to NI due to instances* of bad behaviour by (some of) our fans. "I'd sooner support England or even Turkey before NI" was how you put it, I think.
Now considering the Lansdowne Riot by England fans, plus the thoroughly disgraceful behaviour by Turkish fans (including murder), I concluded that that your dislike of the NI team/fans actually stems from irrational prejudice.
Then I noted that you had travelled to Istanbul with Leeds, which caused me to wonder whether you weren't also a Leeds United fan.
For if you are/were, considering that club's long and continuing reputation for hooliganism etc amongst the support, then for you to cast aspersions on the NI support would make you a hypocrite of a pretty low order.


* - Btw, were you actually at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse you cite? Were you at the NI/ROI game at Windsor in 1993? Have you ever been at any NI international, whether in Belfast or overseas?

[The Midget Gem]

I hate Northern Ireland fans for their treatment of some of the Catholic players. Remember Neil Lennon and his abuse over his Celtic move. Utter scumbags. Always hated them after that, even the abuse Arthur Boruc got last month when he was playing for Poland in Windsor. Totally uncalled for, apart from the fact he plays for a catholic team.
The only time i was remotely happy to see them win was when they bet the English a couple of years back.

[Gather round]

So you always hated them, except when you were happy that they won? Make your mind up.

Boruc got stick because throughout his Celtic career he's been happy to play on his bogeyman image with Rangers fans. I mean, what did he expect facing a crowd including many of them?

As for the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering), how else do you react to an international keeper who basically throws two in his own net, is at fault for a third, and plays throughout like he'd never seen his back four before they met in the changing rooms to smoke crack? (Thanks to Maciej from Gdansk for that enduring image).

He's rubbish, you should move on.

[The Midget Gem]

So you always hated them, except when you were happy that they won? Make your mind up.

Boruc got stick because throughout his Celtic career he's been happy to play on his bogeyman image with Rangers fans. I mean, what did he expect facing a crowd including many of them?

As for the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering), how else do you react to an international keeper who basically throws two in his own net, is at fault for a third, and plays throughout like he'd never seen his back four before they met in the changing rooms to smoke crack? (Thanks to Maciej from Gdansk for that enduring image).

He's rubbish, you should move on.

Thats hilarious. I barely moved on to the subject and you tell me to move off it. I was just making my point i don't like NI fans/football team. Basically because of what they stand for on a whole. The Fact Boruc, Lennon, and im sure there are more, were abused(abuse like I've never seen before, near hatred) was just being used to get a point across.
I presume your a Rangers fan from your post as well, so there is no point in trying to pursuade you.
The fact i was remotely happy when ye beat England is because i actually hate the English football team and their constant blowing themselves up as a world cup winning team every 4 years, and i love to see them get put back in their place.

[Gather round]

Thats hilarious. I barely moved on to the subject and you tell me to move off it

You've little to add to it.


I was just making my point i don't like NI fans/football team. Basically because of what they stand for on a whole

They stand for playing for and supporting NI.


im sure there are more, were abused(abuse like I've never seen before, near hatred)

Boruc got called a wan*ker (because Rangers fans don't like him) and a clown (because he played like one). You can't seriously claim never to have heard similar at other games.


I presume your a Rangers fan from your post as well, so there is no point in trying to pursuade you

You presume wrongly- "the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering" should have been a clue. Did you not read nor understand it?


The fact i was remotely happy when ye beat England is because i actually hate the English football team and their constant blowing themselves up as a world cup winning team every 4 years, and i love to see them get put back in their place

Weren't you happy when we beat Spain then? Their media equally talks the team up as likely winners, albeit with more justification than England's.

[Den Perry]

Of course you are entitled to your views - just as I must be entitled to express my disapproval when your views appear to be influenced by prejudice and ignorance, rather than by purely objective, footballing factors.

Not sure that it's the vast majority (though might be); anyhow, "I don't like them because they don't like us" is the basis of most footballing rivalries, and so long as that is not used as an excuse for excessive abuse of the other lot etc, it seems acceptable enough to me, I suppose.


Some revisionism going on here, I must say, for in an earlier post (#22), you explained your antipathy towards NI as follows:
"I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI"
No sign of anything about "NI fans wanting to see ROI teams lose" there...:rolleyes:

Really? Care to explain this particular comment, then, also from post #22?
"I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI."
(On second thoughts, no explanation is necessary, since I'm just about managing to cope with the hurt ;))

Simple enough, really. You have explained your disinclination to give any support to NI due to instances* of bad behaviour by (some of) our fans. "I'd sooner support England or even Turkey before NI" was how you put it, I think.
Now considering the Lansdowne Riot by England fans, plus the thoroughly disgraceful behaviour by Turkish fans (including murder), I concluded that that your dislike of the NI team/fans actually stems from irrational prejudice.
Then I noted that you had travelled to Istanbul with Leeds, which caused me to wonder whether you weren't also a Leeds United fan.
For if you are/were, considering that club's long and continuing reputation for hooliganism etc amongst the support, then for you to cast aspersions on the NI support would make you a hypocrite of a pretty low order.


* - Btw, were you actually at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse you cite? Were you at the NI/ROI game at Windsor in 1993? Have you ever been at any NI international, whether in Belfast or overseas?

EG, re your arguments above:

1. you state that my reasons for not liking NI are not for "purely objective football factors"
-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

2. You accuse me of revisionism. I am so sorry that I neglected to include an example in my original argument? Does that preclude me from doing so at a later point?:rolleyes:

3. Ok. it is personal....you really are a c ock (IMO)

4.Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

5. Yes I was at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse first hand -
No, I did not go to Windsor in 1993....it would have been very ill advised
Yes I have been to a NI international...against Ireland in Dublin. As to whether I have seen them abroad? why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?

[Gather round]

-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

Both of your reasons for choosing who or not to support are subjective- as are Den's for disliking NI more than any other team. But supporting your local team is probably more rational and predictable than any reason you've given for your NI phobia?


Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

I've no wish to rubbish Leeds United and their aspirations to win the English League 47th place play-off. Nor to cast aspersions...


why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?

Steady on old boy. We're many things but ****-poor isn't one of them. Beat a higher-ranked team occasionally and you can join us :)

[EalingGreen]

EG, re your arguments above:

1. you state that my reasons for not liking NI are not for "purely objective football factors"
-does this mean that your reasons for supporting NI are not based on where you come from or your heritage? because these are not "purely objective football factors"

It's quite simple. I support NI because that's where I was born, just as you (presumably) support ROI for the same reasons. But that was not my point, which was that you also denigrate another team.
Fair enough, you are entitled to do so, for whatever reason or none. Just as I am entitled to point out my scorn for people who do so clearly out of political prejudice, ignorance and spite, rather than objective, footballing reasons.



2. You accuse me of revisionism. I am so sorry that I neglected to include an example in my original argument? Does that preclude me from doing so at a later point?:rolleyes:

I've already addressed that point - stop playing the victim.



3. Ok. it is personal....you really are a c ock (IMO)

Charming.



4.Re Leeds Utd- as you have just cast aspirations on Leeds Utd, and considering Northern Ireland's long and continued reputation among its support,does this not make you a hypocrite of the highest order?

No. It was your point, not mine, that one cannot/should not support a team (in my case, NI) because of the (alleged) actions of a section of that team's support.
Seeing as you evidently support Leeds, a team with a long and continuing reputation for hooliganism amongst a section of its support, then it is you who are the hypocrite.
For the record, I have never denied or defended when some of my fellow NI fans have misbehaved. However, since I have never believed that the decent majority should depart and leave the hoolie minority a free run, I have chosen to stay with the team and attempt to put things right (in my own small way).
As such, I greatly admire eg those many decent Leeds fans who are sticking with their team, even in the 3rd Division, whilst they try to drown out the hooligans.



5. Yes I was at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse first hand -

But you still have not explained why you can tarnish the entire support of an international team, based on the actions, many years back, of a small minority of yobs at a junior Summer football tournament.
By that token, I could take my experience of having been stoned by fans/passers-by/hangers-on? on leaving an NI game at Landsdowne, as an excuse to condemn the entire ROI support.



No, I did not go to Windsor in 1993....it would have been very ill advised

Really? That's not what Gspain relates. Then again, he was only at the game (as well as other, much more recent games at WP).



Yes I have been to a NI international...against Ireland in Dublin.
Now let me see. The last time NI played "Ireland" [sic] in Dublin was almost exactly 10 years ago. Assuming that that is the game you're referring to, remind me again of how that qualifies you to pontificate on the behaviour of NI fans (home and abroad) in the 21st Century?
I'm surprised you can even remember* it.

* - Speaking of which, can you remind me of the score that day? ;)



As to whether I have seen them abroad? why in God's name would I travel to see pi ss poor international team unless I supported them?
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/standings/index.html (Group Three ;))

[Den Perry]

It's quite simple. I support NI because that's where I was born, just as you (presumably) support ROI for the same reasons. But that was not my point, which was that you also denigrate another team.
Fair enough, you are entitled to do so, for whatever reason or none. Just as I am entitled to point out my scorn for people who do so clearly out of political prejudice, ignorance and spite, rather than objective, footballing reasons.


I've already addressed that point - stop playing the victim.


Charming.


No. It was your point, not mine, that one cannot/should not support a team (in my case, NI) because of the (alleged) actions of a section of that team's support.
Seeing as you evidently support Leeds, a team with a long and continuing reputation for hooliganism amongst a section of its support, then it is you who are the hypocrite.
For the record, I have never denied or defended when some of my fellow NI fans have misbehaved. However, since I have never believed that the decent majority should depart and leave the hoolie minority a free run, I have chosen to stay with the team and attempt to put things right (in my own small way).
As such, I greatly admire eg those many decent Leeds fans who are sticking with their team, even in the 3rd Division, whilst they try to drown out the hooligans.


But you still have not explained why you can tarnish the entire support of an international team, based on the actions, many years back, of a small minority of yobs at a junior Summer football tournament.
By that token, I could take my experience of having been stoned by fans/passers-by/hangers-on? on leaving an NI game at Landsdowne, as an excuse to condemn the entire ROI support.


Really? That's not what Gspain relates. Then again, he was only at the game (as well as other, much more recent games at WP).


Now let me see. The last time NI played "Ireland" [sic] in Dublin was almost exactly 10 years ago. Assuming that that is the game you're referring to, remind me again of how that qualifies you to pontificate on the behaviour of NI fans (home and abroad) in the 21st Century?
I'm surprised you can even remember* it.

* - Speaking of which, can you remind me of the score that day? ;)


http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/index.html
http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/preliminaries/europe/standings/index.html (Group Three ;))

I've explained my reasons.....there is no getting through to you.

However I will say that I am under no obligation to explain to you as to why I would not support NI. You imply that its beacuse I'm a bigot....fair enough, that's your you're opinion. However its what I perceive to be the bigotry of the vast majority of NI fans that causes my disike....

Enjoy finishing fourth in the group

[EalingGreen]

I've explained my reasons.....there is no getting through to you.

On the contrary, your Agenda is crystal clear :rolleyes:



However I will say that I am under no obligation to explain to you as to why I would not support NI.
I do not expect you to support NI. Why should I, since they're not your country? But you take things a lot further than that i.e. you disparage NI for reasons which are quite clearly prejudiced. But go ahead, knock yourself out - maybe it will get you extra marks for Patriotism, or something :rolleyes:



You imply that its beacuse I'm a bigot....fair enough, that's your you're opinion.
No, not "implying", stating.



However its what I perceive to be the bigotry of the vast majority of NI fans that causes my disike....
Not a big fan of Irony, then.



Enjoy finishing fourth in the group
Whether we finish first, last, or any point inbetween, I'm sure I will enjoy the experience. It goes with simply being a "football fan". You might try it for yourself.

[Gather round]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.

[EalingGreen]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.
Ouch! ;)

[DeLorean]

Just doing a bit of research there on NI's chances of qualification. It an incredibly tight group really with every team outside of San Marino in with a realistic chance. To be honest I would fear for NI the way the group is panning out. Ye still have what would have been considered your toughest away matches at the start of the campaign to come, in Poland and Czech Rep. Having said that ye did get draws in Sweden and Denmark in the last campaign if memory serves, ye'll need similar results this time. Slovakia at home is a must-win I would think. The fixtures for the other sides is just as worrying I think. Slovenia have San Marino twice and Slovakia and the Czechs must play them again too. The Czechs have their final 3 matches at home also which will give them a good chance. Let's hope that San Marino will be a handful as the group goes on!!!:rolleyes:

Think ye'll probably need 5 points from your final 3 games which is a tall enough order.

[Gather round]

San Marino are the worst team in the competition. They won't get a point.

Assuming that all other remaining games are home wins (only Slovakia have won away so far, against the Czechs), the final table will look as below. I've ignored all results against SMR to enable a comparison with other groups in estimating who'll make (or not) the play offs:

Slovakia 15
Slovenia 11
Czechia 11
Poland 10
Northern Ireland 10

in practice I think we actually need six more points, from two wins, to make the play offs. Slovakia are the clear favorite, but all four others have a chance.

[gspain]

Don't be too hard on Den. He's disappointed after finishing 48th again.

I would think the playoff losers would be entitled to claim 48th spot. So maybe 49th is more accurate. Indeed were Scunthorpe to win tonight then MK Dons could lay claim to 49th but congrats to Leeds on finishing in the top 50. :eek:

[Gather round]

I would think the playoff losers would be entitled to claim 48th spot. So maybe 49th is more accurate

No, they finished 48th in the League (ie fourth in its Division 3). Then (equal) third in another, separate competition :o

[seanfhear]

To be honest NI have done much better than I thought and might qualify.

I had my doubts about Worthington and Healys goal scoring run had to come to an end sometime.

So I would say that they have a better squad than I gave them credit for.

Can we please come back and make an All-Ireland team though;)

[Gather round]

No thanks. If you must merge with someone, why not England? They're rather better than we are.

[gustavo]

I don't see why people are so determined to get an All Ireland team, Anyone from the North who wants to play for us can if they want already so in some respects it's an All Ireland team already

[Gather round]

I don't see why people are so determined to get an All Ireland team, Anyone from the North who wants to play for us can if they want already so in some respects it's an All Ireland team already

It isn't enough for some people that the South can pick players from outside the country; they want to stop the other country having a team. They're ****stirrers, basically.

[seanfhear]

The clue is in Northern Ireland and the Rest of Ireland + Donegal (because thats in the Northern part of Ireland as well)

Its not really that long ago that the RoI foolishly separated itself from the Irish FA.

It will happen some day its only a matter of time.

[Den Perry]

Disgraceful antics from NI international Kyle Lafferty today

[Gather round]

The clue is in Northern Ireland and the Rest of Ireland + Donegal (because thats in the Northern part of Ireland as well)

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.


Its not really that long ago that the RoI foolishly separated itself from the Irish FA

It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.


It will happen some day its only a matter of time

Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.


Disgraceful antics from NI international Kyle Lafferty today

Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.

[seanfhear]

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.

It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.



Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.



Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.

On a neutral point in my original post I did mention that NI had a better squad than I had given them credit for proven by their good performance in the group so far.

In fairness that was a bit embarassing from Lafferty today.
He is only following in the footsteps of footballers from all countries.
With reguard to players behaviour and respect for the ref then Football should follow Rugby union though I believe that their standards are dropping in recent times also.

I did not see all of the Chelsea v Barcelona game but if football players think the can get away with that type of behavior then they will kill the game of football.

[Den Perry]

Sean, let me explain this to you slowly. We don't want to merge with your football team. Regardless of how good or bad its record, or what you want to call it, or how many English, Scots, Derrymen or others you persuade to play for it. Like I said, if you want a merger, the English are a much better bet.



It's almost a century ago. Not so foolish- it's international football, you're a different country.



Stop sh it-stirring and concentrate on qualifying a bit more often.



Yes, so what? I daresay the Scottish FA will discipline him for it. And if Rangers are finally fed up with him, they could always transfer to Leeds. He's already got goals in English Division 3.


So what? Its a football forum and I am passing comment on a football related matter.On the subject of transferring to Leeds, I think it would be a bad move for Lafferty because he probably wouldn't make the starting eleven