Kevin Foley

[Charlie Darwin]

I had to laugh when I saw the Herald quote a family member as saying it's "like Saipan all over again."

http://www.herald.ie/news/foley-family-heartbreak-3124710.html

[DannyInvincible]

I had to laugh when I saw the Herald quote a family member as saying it's "like Saipan all over again."

http://www.herald.ie/news/foley-family-heartbreak-3124710.html

That's ridiculous.

Surely this is worse!

[Irwin3]

I think Kevin Foley is being pretty immature in his reaction. He was not betrayed. At the last minute, and weighing up certain players, Trappatoni felt McShane was a more versatile defender. I don't necessarily agree with the decision but I can see the logic behind it and even if Foley is 100% sure Trap is making a mistake then he still needs to keep his trap shut and take it like a man. He is one of many young players and I understand his disappointment but he wasn't betrayed and I think he and his family need to be a bit more grown up about it.

"to disappoint the hopes or expectations of". Sounds like a betrayal to me.

I think it's more immature to tell someone to 'keep his trap shut and take it like a man'. He's a 27 year old grown man and he can say what he wants.

Named in squad May 7th.
Meet up with squad and train/get fit.
Travel to Italy and train/get ready to play.
Get pulled over in training on May 29th 30 minutes before UEFA squad deadline to be told you are out of the squad.

I feel for the guy a lot. Just read from the herald article that his son was born three weeks ago as well. Foley must have felt like he did his part of the deal by dedicating his time to the team and getting fit. So to have the rug pulled out from under him at the last second must have made him feel betrayed and that he has had the **** taken out of him.

[SkStu]

The Foley family practicing their display for the Croatian game...

TRAP = JUDAS

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t198/leejobohs/judas2.jpg

http://i160.photobucket.com/albums/t198/leejobohs/judas.jpg

[osarusan]

From the RTE article linked earlier.


Much of the criticism levelled at Trapattoni has centred around his decision not to name a larger initial squad of 26 or 27 players and then reduce it closer to the deadline.

However, he was unequivocal in his view that disappointing four or five players is the same as disappointing one.

Trapattoni said: "You have to think that 50km from here there is another national team (Italy). They have 32 players. Think about the nine players that go back.

I don't agree with Trap at all about this. If he names people in a provisional squad, then they're aware of the possibility that they might not make the final squad - or to put it more accurately, the concern about not making the final squad is much more immediate if the first squad named is provisional. Had he done this, and then told 3 or 4 players (or only Foley) that they didn't make the final squad, I don't think there would be any fuss or talk of 'betrayal' at all.

But the way he went about it meant that Foley believed (reasonably, in my opinion) that he was in the squad for certain.

So when I read comments that 'he has to make the right decisions for the team', I think they miss the point because he wouldn't have have put himself or Foley in the situation they were in had he done things differently earlier.

[jbyrne]

So when I read comments that 'he has to make the right decisions for the team', I think they miss the point because he wouldn't have have put himself or Foley in the situation they were in had he done things differently earlier.

but they were not aware when the squad was named that 3 or 4 defenders would be injury concerns. we also lost fahey who has played right back before.

the outcry about this by some is ridiculous and just smacks of people wanting something to fill their pages and time before the tournament gets going. given the injury concerns if trap had left us short in central defence cover he would be battered by fans and media alike. he cant win. tough as it is on foley its actually the squad and what trap thinks his best way of covering himself is thats important.

ive never been in one but i would suspect that extended squads with a number of lads battering each other to get into the final squad, diluted tactics sessions given a few lads wont be ultimately involved and the constant wondering whos in and out are distractions not needed in the build up. naming 27 or so back at the start of May would not have been ideal at all

[osarusan]

but they were not aware when the squad was named that 3 or 4 defenders would be injury concerns. we also lost fahey who has played right back before.

given the injury concerns if trap had left us short in central defence cover he would be battered by fans and media alike. he cant win.


Big difference between being dropped from a squad because you're injured like Fahey and being dropped after regaining fitness like Foley.

I've no argument with Trap picking whatever he feels is the best squad. My issue is with the way he went about it - he could easily have avoided the situation he put himself and Foley in.

I disagree completely that naming a provisional squad would have created the problems you've suggested.

[SwanVsDalton]

There's merits in both arguments but at some point don't we just have to say this guy's picked a few tourney squads, he knows what he's at? Trap clearly outlined his thinking early and explained he's had problems with extended provisional squads.

[Stuttgart88]

Facts:
- Foley was named in initial squad
- JOS got injured subsequently, but said he'd recover
- Dunne is an injury risk having come back from broken collar bone
- Sledge and O'Dea have picked up knocks subsequently
- Fahey is out and replaced by an out-and-out midfielder. This diminished Foley's value as midfield cover.
- JOS injury clearly remains a concern
- All this means that CB cover has increased in priority
- Trap has explained this quite clearly - read the quote I posted from The Examiner if anyone's in doubt
- It's devastating for Foley and everyone is gutted for him
- There was no easy way to take a hard decision

My opinions:
- Foley hasn't been that impressive for us when he did play, bar maybe in CM v NI reserves (I think).
- Had McShane played Macedonia onside like Foley did he'd have been crucified on foot.ie. Foley got away with it because he's more popular.
- Everyone's getting carried away - life can be tough. Business is tough, sport is tough. We're talking about 2 players who have barely featured in competitive action for us in nearly 3 years i.e., we're debating the lower orders.
- McShane doesn't convince me but I don't think he's as bad as many say. At this level I fear that he'll be exposed.
- I think Wilson would have been a better call up, and even despite the "facts" above I think we could have retained Foley.
- I hope that McShane hasn't leapfrogged Kelly in the pecking order, which is a suspicion I have.

[geysir]

I think McShane would be in 3rd place at best for RB and for any opening at CH, quite a feat considering the classic squad format of having 2 players for each outfield position.

[paul_oshea]

There's merits in both arguments but at some point don't we just have to say this guy's picked a few tourney squads, he knows what he's at? Trap clearly outlined his thinking early and explained he's had problems with extended provisional squads.

Ya and he did very poorly in both tourney squads ; )

Just because someone has done something before, whether good or bad, doesn't mean they will do it good thereafter, but you would hope that he would learn from past mistakes and experiences.

[paul_oshea]

Facts:

- I hope that McShane hasn't leapfrogged Kelly in the pecking order, which is a suspicion I have.

And that suspicion that you have, does that not make you realise that most of your previous points would then be nulled? Traps inital decision masquerading as a fitness problem.

[Stuttgart88]

No, I don't think Trap would be as dishonest as that. He's man enough to take tough decisions without lying about their justification.

I'm pretty sure, but not certain, that if JOS is injured Kelly will play RB but that McShane is more likely than Kelly to step in as CB, even though Kelly was also seen as CB cover. Let's not forget that DO'D is first reserve CB.

However, now McShane is definitely in the picture Trap might think hes a better option than Kelly at RB. Kelly was more deserving of an initial squad place because he can play RB, LB and CB.

[SwanVsDalton]

Ya and he did very poorly in both tourney squads ; )

Just because someone has done something before, whether good or bad, doesn't mean they will do it good thereafter, but you would hope that he would learn from past mistakes and experiences.

Exactly. He outlined why he operated this squad this way, his past experience led him to the conclusion. If anything this situation simply shows selecting a tourney squad is a tough gig.

I don't like using the argument 'we don't know' but the unerring conviction of how squads should be selected on this thread is getting self-parodic.

[jbyrne]

Big difference between being dropped from a squad because you're injured like Fahey and being dropped after regaining fitness like Foley.


my point was that fahey leaving the squad affected our defensive cover given he has played rb for birmingham a number of times. i was not putting the 2 players leaving the squad in the same bracket.



I've no argument with Trap picking whatever he feels is the best squad. My issue is with the way he went about it - he could easily have avoided the situation he put himself and Foley in.


no nice way of telling someone they're out of the squad. the reasoning why it happened has been discussed to death here. Trap is many things but being able to predict injury concerns 3 or 4 weeks before the squad assembled is not one of them. circumstances overtook his original final squad plans. you could argue that trap actually did the best thing by leaving it right till the last minute to make a call. again, the squad comes before any player.



I disagree completely that naming a provisional squad would have created the problems you've suggested.

having players around that have little chance of making the squad can be disruptive. the squad can lose focus also if the manager has to involve 4 or 5 players in training who ultimately wont be involved. far better to train, go through tactics beside those you will actually find yourself on the pitch beside than with players who will be on a beach by the time the matches commence. look at hunts stroppy reaction last sat to not getting a game. can you imagine another 4 or 5 on the bench eager to get a game and impress but ultimately dont get a run?

[tetsujin1979]

look at hunts stroppy reaction last sat to not getting a game. can you imagine another 4 or 5 on the bench eager to get a game and impress but ultimately dont get a run?
He seemed fine in the post game lap of honour, laughing and joking with Trapattoni.

[DannyInvincible]

He seemed fine in the post game lap of honour, laughing and joking with Trapattoni.

Hunt is impulsive. He'd probably already forgotten about it.

[paul_oshea]

Like a Dog?

[osarusan]

my point was that fahey leaving the squad affected our defensive cover given he has played rb for birmingham a number of times. i was not putting the 2 players leaving the squad in the same bracket.


Ok, sorry I misinterpreted that. I thought you were.


you could argue that trap actually did the best thing by leaving it right till the last minute to make a call
Isn't this exactly what he didn't do? He made a call (definitive rather than provisional), then had to make another call due to injuries.

More than anything though, I guess I agree with SwanvDalton's point that there is no perfect way to go about it, and we should give an experienced manager the leeway to make the decisions.

I just think it's a sickeningly cruel way for a player to miss out (and I'm not saying others don't feel the same way, everybody does) and I'd love for it to have been avoided. If other posters on here feel it was just unavoidable given the injuries, then fair enough.

[DannyInvincible]

Like a Dog?

The image of him frenziedly chasing after a stick on the beach and returning it back to his owner in mouth doesn't actually seem so surreal when I envisage it.

[jbyrne]

He seemed fine in the post game lap of honour, laughing and joking with Trapattoni.

id say he quickly remembered what trap does with players that dont toe the line

[Murfinator]

I think its a sad indictment of how anglicised (i.e. ridiculously missing the point) our media and a large section of our public have become over this Kevin Foley saga. For many the emotions and sensationalism of the story is the be all and end all with the actual sporting and management significance of little importance. The fact that a week before our first major tournament in 10 years the most talked about subject is a meaningless fringe player position must be saddening for Trap.

[DannyInvincible]

I dunno if it's strictly indicative of Anglicisation. Maybe more indicative of human curiosity and the conveyor belt information age in which we live where we're constantly drip-fed the latest in "exclusive updates" and mountains are made out of molehills. Still stupid that it is overshadowing our preparations though, I agree.

[Manc Irish Wolf]

The furore regarding Foley is ludicrous. The fact of the matter is that he was a more than competent full back in the Championship however blew his chance for both Wolves and Ireland when he had the opportunity. Evidently the occassion got the better of him and he ended up like a rabbit in the headlights. He had his chance and simply proved he didn't have the balls for it. If he did, he would have cemented what was a very precarious position months ago.

Conversely, McShane, whilst a liability on occasion (similar to Dunne for the early part of his career - possibly not a like for like comparison but with similarities), did well when he first came on the scene for Ireland, did well against France in the playoff and played very well on Saturday showing he has the heart for the task, with the added adcvantage of covering two positions.

It's a dog eat dog world and Trap didn't become the highly honoured man that he is today through emotional sentiment. It possibly could have been handled better and he may well feel agrieved that Paul Green was called in when he has performed well on ocassion as defensive mid this season. But choices are choice, so just get the f*ck on with it. Boohoo. All of this betrayed nonsence is just distracting us from thae fact that we have the squad and need to get on with it.

Hopefully, this will teach the rest of the squad (including Hunt, Ward & Doyle - three other under-performing Wolves players) that the cosy little set up is no more. You are either up for the job, or you aren't. The latter of which I think should be well down the peckinng order behind Long and Walters based upon performances of late. Our strategy is and always has been one of fight and determination, if you don't step up when the opportunity arises, you can get f*cked as far as I am concerned. You are fighting for your country now, not some bit part club who pay your wage (of which Wolves are one):

For the record, below are a few point-points (which in fairness has been mixed with regards to the stle in whichTrap is done it):

Shame for him and I agree it could and should have been handled better - but it's amazing he was in the squad to begin with considering how poor he's been all season.

I think you're all forgetting that Foley has been utter gash this season. Maybe that has something to do with it?

i understand the logic behind it just the way its been dealt with was wrong

Boo hoo. Man up an move on Foley. If he had performed anything like this season for Wolves then he would have been un-droppable for the national team. in reality Foley has been mediocre at best and has done nothing to cement his place in the Ireland set up...at best he was, like McShane, destined to be a bench warmer.

[paul_oshea]

Not so long ago you were telling us all how great ward was etc, how times change.

It was handled terribly, just because you now dislike(or perhaps disdain for) foley because Wolves are relegated does not change this fact. The guy had a kid only 3 weeks ago, he made a big sacrifice, for his country, and was treated -ashamedly- terribly.

[Paddy Garcia]

Conversely, McShane, whilst a liability on occasion (similar to Dunne for the early part of his career - possibly not a like for like comparison but with similarities), did well when he first came on the scene for Ireland, did well against France in the playoff .

Mmmm - apart from failing to clear the ball & allowing Henry through to score.

[elroy]

It was on the sports news earlier today that the FAI are trying to get in touch with Mark Wilson to place him on standby. Apparently Foley has indicated he will not answer the call if he is called up for example in the event of an injury to JOSH.

I do feel very sorry for Foley and believe that he was very hard done by. Was the use of the word betrayed an overreaction? No I dont think so, the guy cares about playing for Ireland and had it snatched away from him in the cruelest way possible. However, I think this matter should blow over now and its only the media needing to fill column inches that is keeping the story alive. I suspect once we get to the Hungary game, we will have heard the last of it.

[theworm2345]

It was on the sports news earlier today that the FAI are trying to get in touch with Mark Wilson to place him on standby. Apparently Foley has indicated he will not answer the call if he is called up for example in the event of an injury to JOSH.

I do feel very sorry for Foley and believe that he was very hard done by. Was the use of the word betrayed an overreaction? No I dont think so, the guy cares about playing for Ireland and had it snatched away from him in the cruelest way possible. However, I think this matter should blow over now and its only the media needing to fill column inches that is keeping the story alive. I suspect once we get to the Hungary game, we will have heard the last of it.
What a ****show.

[Stuttgart88]

Not so long ago you were telling us all how great ward was etc, how times change.

It was handled terribly, just because you now dislike(or perhaps disdain for) foley because Wolves are relegated does not change this fact. The guy had a kid only 3 weeks ago, he made a big sacrifice, for his country, and was treated -ashamedly- terribly.He was treated harshly, but not ashamedly. That's just pure hyperbole. Tough decisions mean somene loses out. I disagree with MIW that McShane did well in the play-off but just about everything else was bang on. This is a relatively marginal event involving marginal players yet our press and the more excitable on here think it's some sort of catastrophe.

[paul_oshea]

Ashamedly on Traps part I meant. He should have just told him after the Bosnia game and not brought him to Italy.


This is a relatively marginal event involving marginal players yet our press and the more excitable on here think it's some sort of catastrophe.
Its not hyperbole to point these things out, the key point you miss and missed by others, the way Trap handled it, if it were a top player (though we don't have any in the shape of Roy K this time around), everyone would be up in arms and divided. Its the way its handled is the problem, doesnt matter if its me or you or kevin foley or Richard Dunne.

As I said it will all be forgotten about next week.

[tetsujin1979]

People complain when Trap doesn't make hard decisions with the squad (dropping a favoured player for someone like Hoolahan) can't really complain when he does make a difficult decision.

[paul_oshea]

Agree completely, but loyalty and playing lads or picking the same lads for squads over and over is completely different to a pre-meditated dropping a player, last minute, for footballing decisions rather than fitness.

Tough decisions should, and have to be made from time to time, its how you go about it is the issue here.

[tetsujin1979]

Agree completely, but loyalty and playing lads or picking the same lads for squads over and over is completely different to a pre-meditated dropping a player, last minute, for footballing decisions rather than fitness.

Tough decisions should, and have to be made from time to time, its how you go about it is the issue here.
how do you make a pre-meditated, last minute decision?
if it's pre meditated you have known about it for some time
if it's last minute you make it at the last possible moment

[Irwin3]

how do you make a pre-meditated, last minute decision?
if it's pre meditated you have known about it for some time
if it's last minute you make it at the last possible moment

He obviously means it was pre-meditated but waited till the last minute to execute the decision.

[Closed Account]

The decision to include McShane over Foley wasn't made until McShane passed a fitness test on Tuesday morning. Foley was given the bad news almost immediately after, at the earliest possible time.

Edit, to not quote Irwin3, he seems a little touchy. :)

[Irwin3]

The decision to include McShane over Foley wasn't made until McShane passed a fitness test on Tuesday morning. Foley was given the bad news almost immediately after, at the earliest possible time.

Thanks for letting me know (we all have access to the same information). I'll be sure to pass it on to paul_oshea.

[Closed Account]

Pretty good summation of the Foley story.
Vincent Hogan: Betrayal? Trap was just doing his job

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/vincent-hogan-betrayal-trap-was-just-doing-his-job-3125853.html

[geysir]

Trap could have handled it differently but hard to say if that would have been any better.
Has Dunphy appeared yet on TV criticising Trap's management, with tears welling up along with a choked voice, recount just what a fine fellow Kieran Foley is and just how his heart must be broken as he sits at home in the dog house, reeling from the awful treatment he has just received from Trap.

[Irish_Praha]

how do you make a pre-meditated, last minute decision?
if it's pre meditated you have known about it for some time
if it's last minute you make it at the last possible moment

I only started reading this debate from here but it all sounds like the difference between murder and manslaughter.
IMO if its something Trap felt he had to do it's fine with me.

[seanfhear]

The Irish players are left in no doubt that Trap will make tough decisions if he has to.

[tetsujin1979]

Foley gone to Blackpool on a one month loan: http://www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/news/article/foley-in-loan-switch-1385117.aspx

[Green]

Is he available for selection for us again? I thought he was but it kind of indicated he wasn't in today's Irish Daily Mail.

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

Back at Wolves after Blackpool elected not to extend his loan.

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11095/9248825/sky-bet-championship-blackpool-decide-against-extending-kevin-foley-loan

[gastric]

Interesting article, jeez Trap seems to have been really bad at communicating while Tardelli is portrayed as a bit of a b*****d. Worth a read!


http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/drawing-a-line-under-the-betrayal-of-montecatini-30243861.html

[DannyInvincible]

With a mere eight caps to show for six years of service and turning up without question when called upon, I don't think anyone would hold it against Foley for feeling hard done-by due to the lack of fore-warning given or for turning down later call-ups as a matter of principle and upholding self-respect - understandably, he didn't want to appear like a "mug" - but it was a difficult call that needed to be made by Trap at short notice. McDonnell's piece claims they'd been trying to contact Foley by phone before resorting to getting the room's master key and barging in in desperation with the deadline approaching. Were they trying him on his mobile? Surely the hotel room had a landline?

I think Foley acknowledges the difficult position Trap was in. Whatever about Tardelli being pushy, it is clear that he bears no personal grudge against Trap, who was apologetic and similarly upset by the whole episode. It's very easy for Foley to say in hindsight that potential injury concerns (of O'Shea, Dunne and O'Dea) that never worsened or materialised weren't worth the original worry. At least he's not bitter though and still harbours an ambition of returning to the squad at some point in the future. How realistic that hope is, though, I'm not sure.

[tetsujin1979]

back on loan at Blackpool: http://www.blackpoolfc.co.uk/news/article/foley-returns-on-loan-2107119.aspx

[NeverFeltBetter]

Is off to FC Copenhagen apparently?

[TheOneWhoKnocks]

http://www.jv.dk/artikel/1918670:Sport--FCK-henter-gammel-Staale-kending-i-Wolverhampton

Yeah. The Copenhagen manager previously managed Wolves. Looks like it's a done deal.

Confirmation: https://twitter.com/EmeraldExiles/status/554610213790449664

[Charlie Darwin]

Interesting, good to see an Irish player go to a continental league and to a good team too. Nice to see Foley get a break after all the disappointment he's had too.

[NeverFeltBetter]

It's been a while since I've read/seen anything on the Danish league. I know UEFA ranks the league just ahead of Scotland and Copenhagan have a very decent CPL pedigree in the last ten or so years. It's good to see an Irish player make the transition to such an environment.