View Full Version : Budget: April 2009
mypost
09/04/2009, 4:17 AM
The minimum wage should have been cut as it is ridiculously high compared to other EU countries. High minimum wage level feeds into the cost of everything in this country. Any one above the new minimum wage would then pay income tax.
Can't cut minimum wage. If employee is part-time on say, a 3-day week, he needs it to be at current levels.
IMHO the social welfare is way to much - as I said before compared to what people get in the UK (about 60 pounds or so) and in other countries its a joke.
I think that's just the basic dole there, there would be additions. But you are not comparing like with like. The cost of living is much cheaper (hence the exodus to Newry and Enniskillen for the shopping), and the NHS/ Prescription charges are much lower. The comparison with a country that's had the guts of 3 decades of Governments attacking social welfare isn't the example I'm comfortable to use.
The government should be trying to encourage people to work and should cut the social welfare and a good few of the other benefits
What jobs? The only encouragement would be towards re-training and education. The training is being hit by budget cuts and recruitment embargos and they're just about to introduce fees for 3rd level.
The minimum wage should have been cut as it is ridiculously high compared to other EU countries. High minimum wage level feeds into the cost of everything in this country. Any one above the new minimum wage would then pay income tax.
It was inflation that drove up the minimum wage, not the other way around. Funny how it's people who have no prospect of ever having to survive on the minimum wage that are always the ones that want it cut...
bennocelt
09/04/2009, 7:53 AM
I'm single but have 2 children. I have to give my ex(who works as does her husband) 60 euro a week in maintanance for my daughter but am not entitled to claim social welfare for her nor do I get children's allowance so thats 60 out of my Dole gone to someone who is in a 2 job household. when I was working I was only too happy to pay my way but now that I'm unemployed i'm still expected to keep up the payments how is this fair
your maintenance is another issue and nothing got to do with the social, and no its not fair at all
You read, hear, and see the news I take it. If so, you will hear of every day where factories, shops and restaurants closing down, along with several other businesses in all sectors. Then there's businesses upping sticks and going to Eastern Europe and India. It's at a rate of 6k a week. If the government can't find work for them, (and it can't), they're entitled to claim social welfare.
There's no bigger leveller than the dole. Whether you're a 20-year old apprentice, or a 55-year old qualified physician, whether you're a single man or have 5 kids, you're entitled to the same €200 payment as everyone else. And try to support yourself on that amount. €200 doesn't get you very far on the dole if you have commitments, you need other benefits to merely survive. And you have to endure sitting for months on end having other companies doors shut in your face. There are thousands of applicants for every job going.
How many other Eurozone countries have the IMF bailed out yet?? None, and won't be in the foreseeable future. .
.
You obviously haven't read my posts - I am maintaining that the social welfare is far too high! It is costing the country far too much. Of course people are entitled to it if they dont have a job.
20 billion social welfare budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !:mad:
The EU or the IMF will have to bail is out - thats a given - watch this space
and there has already been grumblings from the Germans about our social welfare system (and about the expenses our politicians ratch up) - considering it will be them that will be footing the bill (as always)
Again its all back to the greed of this country - we want the government to hold our hands and wipe our............. and then we criticize them all the time!!!
I don't expect anything from this government and hence am never disappointed!
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
I work and my wife works and we wouldn't spend that nearly between us!
[QUOTE=bennocelt;1140426]
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
Living
bennocelt
09/04/2009, 8:38 AM
[QUOTE=bennocelt;1140426]
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
Living
well yeah:)
but you know all this poverty and stuff
and LOI tickets are "only" 15 quid but if your on the social you get in for free!!!:)
anto1208
09/04/2009, 8:50 AM
Please can you answer me this question - how would one spend more than 200 every week
I work and my wife works and we wouldn't spend that nearly between us!
Well by the time you have got 2 slabs of carling paid for your smack and fags done a few bets there is very little left out of 200 euro.
I actually agree with you i think the jobseekers allowance ( stamps ) is ok left at 204 as your after paying your PRSI for long enough for just that reason. But for the basic Dole to be 200 euro is a bit high. If you have no mortage or rent worth talking about then 200 is loads.
The dole is a safety net so you can pay for food and bills if you want to go for a drink or smoke they are luxuries so you need to get a job.
[QUOTE=bennocelt;1140444
and LOI tickets are "only" 15 quid but if your on the social you get in for free!!!:)[/QUOTE]
If only the standard was anyway good , then this would be incentive enough to quit my job. :)
and LOI tickets are "only" 15 quid but if your on the social you get in for free!!!:)
Only a tenner in Athlone ;)
Combat The Recession ... Support Athlone Town
Only a tenner in Athlone ;)
Combat The Recession ... Support Athlone Town
Comeback when its officially a depression:p
I can only assume those talking about €200 being loads mustn't be in the position of having a family, mortgage, car loan etc.
Block G Raptor
09/04/2009, 9:51 AM
your maintenance is another issue and nothing got to do with the social, and no its not fair at all
The point I was making is that a single mother who's never worked is entitled to whatever extra's on the social for having kids plus childrens allowance, but because my daughter does not live with me I'm entitled to nothing but the basic plus I still have to hand over 60 out of that
so it is to do with the social welfare system. IMO the system favours single mothers not single fathers
OneRedArmy
09/04/2009, 9:57 AM
Nobody yet has managed to demonstrate how €200 a week isn't enough without bringing in kids, rent etc. which all entitle you to separate additional benefits which SIGNIFICANTLY increase what you get from the state.
Macy's point about commitments like loans which can't be changed in the short-term is a valid one, but income protection insurance is specifically aimed at this.
anto1208
09/04/2009, 10:00 AM
I can only assume those talking about €200 being loads mustn't be in the position of having a family, mortgage, car loan etc.
Think they are on about the long term unemployed getting the dole rather than someone who has just lost their job. Some one that has just lost there job that has a mortgage car loans family etc then no 200 euro isnt enough but its better than nothing.
But if some one that hasnt worked for 4 or 5 years goes and gets a car loan and mortage while all ready trying to support a family then that person is an idiot.
First
09/04/2009, 10:41 AM
The point I was making is that a single mother who's never worked is entitled to whatever extra's on the social for having kids plus childrens allowance, but because my daughter does not live with me I'm entitled to nothing but the basic plus I still have to hand over 60 out of that
so it is to do with the social welfare system. IMO the system favours single mothers not single fathers
Thing is BGR if you were working and the child stays with you at least once in any 12 month period you are entitled to the same tax relief as a married man.
This is the equivalent of the mother receiving the single family supplement.
I agree with you on the allowances and such, you are not entitled to these if the main residence of the child is the mothers home. By definition a single parent allowance is because the child is being raised by one parent from a monetary aspect.
I myself am in the same position as you . I pay alot a month to my child's mother . Agreed when we split up without court involvement.This is off set by my tax relief . Though it is difficult when having a mortgage, running a car, paying my bills and insurances. Her mother is entitled to Single family allowance , chid welfare allowance , social housing and is allowed to work for 20 hours a week without any of her allowances being affected.
Thankfully I have a good job but I do worry that if anything happens to it , where I'll stand . You are correct the system is more favoured to the mother in these situations but it does reward and recognise those fathers that are are working and paying towards their childs upkeep. It is all relative to your income. I recently heard of a bloke who brought a girl to court because he beleived he was paying too much child maintainace for his daughter, €30 a week , the judged laughed at him and ordered him to pay €50 a week.
bennocelt
09/04/2009, 1:28 PM
I can only assume those talking about €200 being loads mustn't be in the position of having a family, mortgage, car loan etc.
sorry but having a mortgage shouldn't come into it at all - thats not the responsibility of the state
They weren't my figures, they were CSO figures, but I'm sure you know best. :rolleyes:
I wouldn't say food prices have gone up, however, I see little evidence they have gone down. We have been shopping around for several years, long before the Lidl and Aldi bargain bandwagon was rolling. The family shop for our family hasn't come down. Tesco and Dunnes are only price matching Lidl and Aldi, which is probably what accounts for the small fall with the CSO, so if you were already shopping there you wouldn't see much difference.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0409/inflation.html
funny that:)
sorry but having a mortgage shouldn't come into it at all - thats not the responsibility of the state
It should, especially if the state is paying rent allowance (but makes gives no allowance for mortgage).
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0409/inflation.html
funny that:)
Pity you didn't read the link to the CSO. Year on Year, Food and Non-alcoholic beverages down only 0.5% (same month on month), general goods and services up 9.1%, Beer and smokes up 5.9%, Education up 5.5%, Health up 4.7%. Most of the decrease is down to mortgage rates which doesn't effect everyone (either no mortgage or on a fixed rate), and reductions in home heating oil (little use now as we come into summer).
If you look deeper at some of the year on year decreases, like clothing & shoes and transport, they're actually starting to go back up again in the month on month figures.
I aint going back to look, but I think I said looking at the headline rate can be misleading, didn't I?
bennocelt
09/04/2009, 3:11 PM
It should, especially if the state is paying rent allowance (but makes gives no allowance for mortgage).
Pity you didn't read the link to the CSO. Year on Year, Food and Non-alcoholic beverages down only 0.5% (same month on month), general goods and services up 9.1%, Beer and smokes up 5.9%, Education up 5.5%, Health up 4.7%. Most of the decrease is down to mortgage rates which doesn't effect everyone (either no mortgage or on a fixed rate), and reductions in home heating oil (little use now as we come into summer).
If you look deeper at some of the year on year decreases, like clothing & shoes and transport, they're actually starting to go back up again in the month on month figures.
I aint going back to look, but I think I said looking at the headline rate can be misleading, didn't I?
:)
i suppose the government should help me with my credit card loan, and my student loan?
anto1208
09/04/2009, 3:40 PM
It should, especially if the state is paying rent allowance (but makes gives no allowance for mortgage).
It does if you are on the dole you can claim a mortgage payment too it helps pay the interest only part of your loan but its a help.
If your working you can claim TRS
OneRedArmy
09/04/2009, 4:00 PM
The bottom line is that all other thing being equal (note to everyone trying to compare apples and oranges), you shouldn't be better off on social welfare than in fulltime employment.
Yet that's exactly what this budget will do. And that's wrong, morally financially and any other way you want to look at it.
mypost
09/04/2009, 4:47 PM
You obviously haven't read my posts - I am maintaining that the social welfare is far too high! It is costing the country far too much. Of course people are entitled to it if they dont have a job.
20 billion social welfare budget!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !:mad:
The EU or the IMF will have to bail is out - thats a given - watch this space
and there has already been grumblings from the Germans about our social welfare system (and about the expenses our politicians ratch up) - considering it will be them that will be footing the bill (as always)
The social welfare bill, is comprised of all levels of social welfare, not limited to JA/JB.
I can't see any bailouts from outsiders for at least 5 years. We have our EU membership, we have the Eurozone, so it's like standing in a bus shelter in a thunderstorm. There is a degree of protection for EU states in the current crisis, including Ireland.
I'd have no problem paying income levies, as I'd have a job. JA/JB is the lowest possible rung of the economic ladder though, and should be the very very last area to take a hit, instead of the first.
OneRedArmy
09/04/2009, 5:09 PM
JA/JB is the lowest possible rung of the economic ladder though, and should be the very very last area to take a hit, instead of the first.1) You aren't on the economic ladder if you aren't working.
2) By not reducing welfare and hitting everyone else, you make people in low paid fulltime employment lower on the ladder than the unemployed.
Just like most of your arguments on here this one falls apart when you get into the financial reality of everyday life as opposed to baseless rhetoric.
You should consider running for Sinn Fein, you'd go far with such immovable ideologies combined with zero financial groundings or realpolitik.
Battery Rover
09/04/2009, 6:33 PM
The bottom line is that all other thing being equal (note to everyone trying to compare apples and oranges), you shouldn't be better off on social welfare than in fulltime employment.
Yet that's exactly what this budget will do. And that's wrong, morally financially and any other way you want to look at it.
I have been out of work for three years and was made redundant from my last job and the two previous jobs before that.
I wish someone would show me how I am better off drawing the dole than working seeing as personally I would take a minimum wage job and pay 10% levy if need be as it would virtually double my income doing that. Unfortunately when I go for interviews I usually get the you are overly qualified piece and are you just using this as a stop gap until something better comes along.
Its that bad I am thinking of going back to college.
mypost
12/04/2009, 7:19 AM
1) You aren't on the economic ladder if you aren't working.
You are. On the lowest one.
You're still receiving a fixed amount on a weekly basis. With no possibility of increases until 2012 under this government.
By not reducing welfare and hitting everyone else, you make people in low paid fulltime employment lower on the ladder than the unemployed.
Most people prefer to be in low-paid employment, than sitting at home doing nothing.
I have been out of work for three years and was made redundant from my last job and the two previous jobs before that.
I wish someone would show me how I am better off drawing the dole than working seeing as personally I would take a minimum wage job and pay 10% levy if need be as it would virtually double my income doing that. Unfortunately when I go for interviews I usually get the you are overly qualified piece and are you just using this as a stop gap until something better comes along.
Its that bad I am thinking of going back to college.
Im gonna presume you dont have kids?
Its simply a fact for some families now that it makes more sense to not work and draw the dole that be on minimum wage or a 4 day week and pay for 1/2/3 kids in childcare(especially with childcare benefits also being cut).
Obviously for someone alone without these considerations any job will be worth more than the dole to you.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2009/0416/1224244812773.html
THE GOVERNMENT is backdating the new, higher income levy rates to the start of 2009, despite earlier indications that the rates would only come into force on May 1st.
Among those affected may be people who took redundancy in the first four months of the year. Figures from the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment state that almost 21,000 people had been made redundant in the first quarter of 2009. That figure is likely to exceed 27,000 by the end of April.
The devils in the detail. Wonder what else will come out.
The devils in the detail. Wonder what else will come out.
Is that Budget 2009 v2.1? :confused:
Wonder what else will come out.
They aren't actually hitting TD's at all. Long Service Increment will not be stopped. They aren't going to stop ministerial pensions for sitting TD's afterall. They won't be closing the loophole for former teachers getting the difference in salary. They don't know when they will reduce the number of committee's. Any Junior Ministers not reappointed will get a severence package. How's that for sharing the pain? :rolleyes:
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tds-to-keep-bonus-pay-despite-budget-vow-1710159.html
Aside from all the other issues why would a TD get a bonus payment after 10 years service? WHy does he/she get paid more than a new TD?
Hows about the voters no vote for any sitting TD? Maybe we could get 166 new TDs?
How can Junipr Ministers get severance payments from a political position?
I don't think 100k on its own is too much to pay a TD although expenses need to be cut dramatically & all Committee payments should be scraped. Lets face it is they are not a member of a committee they don't have much to do. Ministerial pay should be slashed as it is far to high.
Real ale Madrid
16/04/2009, 2:43 PM
Interesting letter in todays indo - another interesting perspective on the budget.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/now-golfing-pays-better-than-work-1708412.html
[MOD EDIT: Read the rules (http://foot.ie/forums/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_attribution).]
OneRedArmy
16/04/2009, 5:10 PM
Makes a mockery of some of the posts on this thread.
Also a key factor as to why we don't have an entrepreneurial culture.
mypost
16/04/2009, 5:36 PM
Interesting letter in todays indo - another interesting perspective on the budget.
His case is very different to the ones I highlight. He has a big family, and has access to a number of supplements.
When people think of the "unsustainable" sw bill, they instantly think of those whose sole means of supporting themselves, is the JA/JB area of it. They don't include the various supplements in their calculations. That's what costs the €20 billion, not the €200 a week.
OneRedArmy
16/04/2009, 7:08 PM
His case is very different to the ones I highlight. He has a big family, and has access to a number of supplements.
When people think of the "unsustainable" sw bill, they instantly think of those whose sole means of supporting themselves, is the JA/JB area of it. They don't include the various supplements in their calculations. That's what costs the €20 billion, not the €200 a week.Do you know what percentage of unemployed people are entitled to only JA/JB?
You are talking about a fairly small subset of the population. No wife, no kids, living with parents....
mypost
16/04/2009, 7:45 PM
Not when it's at 11% and rising.
Younger, less experienced staff, are more vulnerable to the chop, in companies with a last in, first out policy.
Not when it's at 11% and rising.
Younger, less experienced staff, are more vulnerable to the chop, in companies with a last in, first out policy.
But in fairness, someone with no kids, or mortgage should be able to get by on a low enough amount while looking for a job. They manage it in britain on around 60pounds and no ones convincing me things cost 3 times as much here.
OneRedArmy
16/04/2009, 10:08 PM
Just to recap, here's how this discussion has gone, for at least 3 whole circles:
Poster 1: €200 a week is more than enough to survive on
Poster 2: Try living on that with a family and rent/mortgage
Poster 1: you get separate payments for each of those, €200 is more than enough for someone with no dependents
Have I missed anything?
Dodge
16/04/2009, 10:17 PM
Have I missed anything?
A couple of sighs here and there, and the odd jibe at public servants
Makes a mockery of some of the posts on this thread.
Also a key factor as to why we don't have an entrepreneurial culture.
From a brief look, I wouldn't have thought he was very good at managing his tax bill if he's coming in that low. Also, I think some of those supplements are using the maximum amounts rather than what someone would actually get.
Probably takes the arguement about job security out of the equation when it comes to things like the pension levy, if you're better off on the dole. :rolleyes:
dahamsta
20/04/2009, 9:41 AM
This rubbish has been roundly rebutted (http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055540985) on Boards.ie.
Interesting letter in todays indo - another interesting perspective on the budget.
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/now-golfing-pays-better-than-work-1708412.html
[MOD EDIT: Read the rules (http://foot.ie/forums/faq.php?faq=rules#faq_attribution).]
OneRedArmy
20/04/2009, 11:30 PM
"roundly rebutted"? The figures used by the letter writer have been exaggerated and assumed a scenario that whilst may be in theory possible, is so unlikely as to render it irrelevant.
BUT the principle that
1) the incentive to work is not sufficiently rewarded at the margin; and
2) as a country at a macro level we can't afford our current welfare spend
are as relevant now as they were before that letter was published.
This is better debated in the economic recovery thread as that's where it will hit us. The short-sighted approach of increasing revenue to meet expenditure rather than reducing expenditure to meet revenue might make us feel warm and fluffy inthe short-term but will simply prolong the economic pain in the long-run and stifle growth for at least a generation to come.
dahamsta
21/04/2009, 12:45 AM
I don't necessarily agree with your principle, but I wasn't arguing that, and as you suggest that debate is better held elsewhere.
I was dealing with the letter that was reposted here, which was "roundly rebutted". Some elements were true and others were exaggerated, however some of it was simply fabricated and not based in reality, not even in theory. More importantly, the way it was packaged was downright malicious, almost certainly a plant for political purposes. At least you're able to debate the topic in question reasonably, the person that planted that drivel should be working for the Star. It's about their level.
We have rules against "unsubstantiated allegations" on Foot.ie precisely to stop this kind of crap perpetuating. It's a pity old media doesn't live up to the promises of luddite morons like Terry Prone (http://www.mulley.net/2009/04/20/terry-prone-not-a-fan-of-bloggers-or-journos-who-blog/).
adam
mypost
21/04/2009, 1:09 AM
The UK Budget is on this week. Usually a blot on the Irish political map, it will be interesting to see their response to the economic crisis, and whether they will go down the FF mega-tax route, or try to stimulate their economy. I suspect it will be primarily the latter, as the fact they have an election in 12 months time, may well influence it.
OneRedArmy
21/04/2009, 8:46 AM
The UK Budget is on this week. Usually a blot on the Irish political map, it will be interesting to see their response to the economic crisis, and whether they will go down the FF mega-tax route, or try to stimulate their economy. I suspect it will be primarily the latter, as the fact they have an election in 12 months time, may well influence it.
The UK have a bit more wriggle room as their tax revenue is a lot stickier, particularly because they have more people in the tax net. Whilst they have lost a lot of manufacturing over the last 20 years their economy is still more diversified than our one trick property pony.
I see the "social partners" (SIPTU, ICTU etc...) were claiming at the weekend that they would strike unless the government agreed to their demands on economic discussions.
How did we get to a situation where unelected lobby groups threaten the government to accept their demands. Cowan should eject them from talks for such threats.
Sheridan
21/04/2009, 4:31 PM
How did we get to a situation where unelected lobby groups threaten the government to accept their demands.
I agree, disband IBEC!
The unions withdrawing from the talks would be the worst thing that could happen to the government as it could lead to the development of a genuine labour movement. However, the unions will back down as they always do. The collective nest-feathering of social partnership suits their leaders as much as it does the employers.
I agree, disband IBEC!
The unions withdrawing from the talks would be the worst thing that could happen to the government as it could lead to the development of a genuine labour movement. However, the unions will back down as they always do. The collective nest-feathering of social partnership suits their leaders as much as it does the employers.
TBH I don't care who the lobby groups represent. IBEC can't threaten to strike though... To my mind employee groups strike for more pay, better conditions or less redundencies. I can't understand how they can basically tell the government they don't agree with their economic policies on tax or whatever & if they don't agree to their plan they will strike? Don't we elect politicians to implement policy? :confused:
dahamsta
21/04/2009, 5:13 PM
I agree, disband IBEC!Great comeback. :)
OneRedArmy
21/04/2009, 7:30 PM
Social partnership only works if all parties share a fairly homogenous long-term goal.
I'm more convinced than ever that the unions are acting in a short-termist manner (primarily to maintain their own strength rather than necessarily act in the best interests of their members).
As for IBEC and the rest of the "partners" (read hangers on) I don't think they have much more of a clue.
One of the by-products of modern society is the speed of change. The economy has been no exception and the decline in Ireland has been particularly speedy.
At a time when quick, decisive decision making was required, FF decided to play happy families and ask the audience what they should do.
Now we're paying the price.
mypost
21/04/2009, 8:09 PM
At a time when quick, decisive decision making was required, FF decided to play happy families and ask the audience what they should do.
That's democracy. By it's nature, it is slow, but it's the only way to have a settled political life in the country.
The problem is, FF only realised there was a recession last Autumn, whereas it was already 2 years old by then.
OneRedArmy
21/04/2009, 8:49 PM
That's democracy. By it's nature, it is slow, but it's the only way to have a settled political life in the country.
The problem is, FF only realised there was a recession last Autumn, whereas it was already 2 years old by then.
It's actually the opposite of democracy!
The social partners aren't elected by the country. I can't vote for them. They represent their own narrow special interest groups.
In a democracy an accountable government governs through the parliamentary process.
mypost
21/04/2009, 9:08 PM
They aren't elected by the country, but they represent thousands of people and businesses, and if they can't agree deals with the government, they have the power to bring the country to it's knees with strikes, protests and other disputes. Bertie Ahern was a great negotiator with them, taking as long as necessary to come to an agreement with them, thus ensuring industrial peace.
Cowen on the other hand, imposes deadlines, can't agree with them, and imposes his own policies. As he said himself, he'll run it as he sees fit. :rolleyes: Cue the industrial chaos we're having right now. It was the second attempt before he and the Greens could even negotiate a potential coalition after the last election.
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