Lionel Messi

[Uncle_Joe]

Crazy quotes always make great signatures! :D

[DeLorean]

Crazy quotes always make great signatures! :D

Ha, that's there to stay anyway, quality!!

[Emmet7]

Crazy quotes always make great signatures! :D

And you learned your football playing for which team and at what level Joe?

And learning it from the couch doesn't count my friend.

I just see people here and everywhere trying to put Messi in the same league as Maradona, Zidanne, Pele, Roy Keane, etc.

He isn't in the same league, not yet. So let's have a bit of perspective on this.

Clearly he hasn't proved it against English opposition and he must have played at least 10 games against top English sides at this stage.

I accept that Messi is not an out and out strikers. What I was saying was he hasn't scored against English sides nor in the 3 most recent games against English opposition, Man Utd last year and Chelsea this year he just didn't perform, didn't create any chances for other players.

Michael Ballack played a brillant through ball for Drogbas second goal against Liverpool, Anelka also set up two goals. Why Can't Messi even do that, ie he doesn't have to score, just create a chance.

Against Man Utd last year everytime he held onto the ball too much and didn't let it go in time.

And for the last time, Spain is not the top league in Europe, Real Madrid were badly exposed by Liverpool both home and away, yet are considered to be in the top two in Spain.

Being a top side in Spain is about as relevant as being a top side in Scotland. You also have has beens like Pires playing in Spain, while Henry and Canavaro do well in Spain once they come up against the English teams, they aren't so hot.

Robinho was also considered a great player in Spain but has flopped since coming to Manchester, and don't say the reason is because he's with a poor team, Maradonna was always with a poor team yet still did well and zidanne always played with an average French team and did well.

I go on evidence. The evidence is Messi does well in Spain and against poor defences in the CL but once he meets players like Ferdinand, Vidic, Terry, Alex, Carhalho, he flops. Maradonna or Pele never flopped against any team. When he doesn't flop against top English defences, then he can claim to be great.

[Closed Account 2]

Incidently what was the score the last time Man Utd played Real Madrid over 2 legs ?

Also Man Utd didn't set the world alight against Villareal the last few times they've played them. And Villareal matched Arsenal in the first leg but were undone by the injury to Marcos Senna (widely acknowledged to be one of the best central midfielders in Europe - note to Michael Carrick fans watch a video of Euro 2008, that recent tournament Carrick & co didn't make it to) prior to the second leg.

[Uncle_Joe]

Robinho was also considered a great player in Spain but has flopped since coming to Manchester, and don't say the reason is because he's with a poor team, Maradonna was always with a poor team yet still did well and zidanne always played with an average French team and did well.


Personally I though Robinho was/is overrated and I thought the French team Zidane played with were quiet good, what with winning those World and European Cups. and all that.

[Red4Eva]

Robinho was also considered a great player in Spain but has flopped since coming to Manchester

Robinho's goal per game ratio in La Liga: 05/06 0.216, 06/07 0.187, 07/08 0.343. Average 0.248

at City: 0.464

but he has "flopped" at city though

[Closed Account 2]

I dont think Robinho's been that bad, granted he was over priced but that is more a function of Man City triggering dollar signs for any club that approaches them.

City's strike force has been a real mess this season Bellamy briefly after January. Vassell, Ched Evans, Sturrdige, Caicedo, Bozhijnov, Benjani, he'd hardly had a chance to pick up an understanding with a regular striker. He has scored 13 goals (I think) this season, think only Ronaldo and Anelka are ahead of him.

[old git]

Incidently what was the score the last time Man Utd played Real Madrid over 2 legs ?

Also Man Utd didn't set the world alight against Villareal the last few times they've played them. And Villareal matched Arsenal in the first leg but were undone by the injury to Marcos Senna (widely acknowledged to be one of the best central midfielders in Europe - note to Michael Carrick fans watch a video of Euro 2008, that recent tournament Carrick & co didn't make it to) prior to the second leg.

what have villareal won in comparison to utd in last few years ... as for marcos senna widely acknowledged as one of the best central midfielders in europe.. why then is he stil playing with villareal.. ryan giggs wideley ackknowledge as pfa player of the year !! ronaldo widely acknowledged as world player of the year !!! see what i mean not everybody agrees with acknowledgements :p incidently were are real madrid in this years champions league ..

[gustavo]

what have villareal won in comparison to utd in last few years ... as for marcos senna widely acknowledged as one of the best central midfielders in europe.. why then is he stil playing with villareal.. ryan giggs wideley ackknowledge as pfa player of the year !! ronaldo widely acknowledged as world player of the year !!! see what i mean not everybody agrees with acknowledgements :p incidently were are real madrid in this years champions league ..

They qualify for the Champions League on a regular basis , would have thought his performances in Euro 08 would have meant this wouldn't be an issue

[jmurphyc]

Maradonna or Pele never flopped against any team.

Absolute rubbish. Are you attempting to say that they were great in every game they played in? Did they always score or get an assist? Maradona was generally poor for Barcelona and had his greatest moment at the age of 26. Messi is 5 years off that age. Great players can have poor games.

Messi wasn't poor last season against United though. Barcelona were on their worst run of the season at that stage and couldn't buy a goal. Messi worked very hard and was the only player who looked at all dangerous. He was the best attacking force in those two games last season. It wasn't his fault that the rest of the team were useless at the time. Put Pele or Maradona in that team and it's unlikely they would have fared much better.

[lionelhutz]

Messi wasn't poor last season against United though. Barcelona were on their worst run of the season at that stage and couldn't buy a goal. Messi worked very hard and was the only player who looked at all dangerous. He was the best attacking force in those two games last season. It wasn't his fault that the rest of the team were useless at the time.


Agreed. I thought Messi was MOTM in both legs but Uniteds mass defence and Barca's lack of form - particularly Eto - meant that Messi was confronted by 3 or 4 players even after he beat his man. Ronaldo was anonymous in both legs (after missing the penalty in the first few mins in the Nou Camp) and was still crowned World Player of the Year.

I think anyone who watched both legs last year agreed Messi was the best player going forward. And only a wonder strike from Scholes separated the teams.

[Emmet7]

Absolute rubbish. Are you attempting to say that they were great in every game they played in? Did they always score or get an assist? Maradona was generally poor for Barcelona and had his greatest moment at the age of 26. Messi is 5 years off that age. Great players can have poor games.


Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

[osarusan]

Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9
What has he done against Chelsea, Arsenal or Man. United in the Champions League though?
He's not truly great until he has proven himself there.

[DmanDmythDledge]

This the same Real Madrid that Liverpool thrashed at Anfield and beat well in Madrid?
No, it is the Real Madrid side who were La Liga champions that season.


what I look for in a great player is a game breaker in top top matches.

Barcelona vs Getafe is not a top top match, nor is most of the matches Barcelona play week in week out.
Is there a bigger club game in the world than Barca-Real Madrid? Messi has done it in plenty of big matches- just because he apparantly doesn't do it in a select few does not mean he is not a big game player.


When Messi scores against English opposition in the CL, then we can call him great. Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest and if any of the English top sides played those Spanish teams it would be 6 or 7 nil.
You do know there's more teams in La Liga than Getafe and Levante? Also more teams than that who play in the CL? Also teams who have played against Argentina. That should be enough to drive the point home but with you...

[jmurphyc]

Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done, one while still only a 17 year old. He played his international career at the same time as Bobby Moore, Bobby Charlton, Eusebio, Puskas, Beckenbar and many other stars so I don't think you could say he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pel%C3%A9

An even better player: Ali Daei.

He scored 109 goals in 149 games for Iran. He played at the same time as Paolo Maldini, Franco Baresi, Zinedine Zidane, Diego Maradona, Romario, Roberto Baggio, Marcel Desailly and many other stars so I don't think you could say that he played against weak teams internationally.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Daei

Anyone can do use a quick fix argument from Wikipedia to prove a point. Using purely statistics would suggest that you've barely seen Pele play. The fact that you didn't even bring up Maradona would suggest that you didn't find his stats favourable enough. If you're going to judge players against each other, you should probably watch them first.

[gustavo]

Having a great game tonight but I suppose it doesn't count , it's only away in the Bernebeau in a title deciding game

[Seano]

[QUOTE=Emmet7;1153424]Pele's scoring stats:

1280 goals in 1363 games when tours are included.

643 in 656 domestic games at the top level in Brazil, Pele won 10 league titles playing in Brazil.

77 goals in 92 international appearances including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done,

Paul Breitner scored in 2 finals for West Germany, Zidane also and Viva a teamate of Pele

[jmurphyc]

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

[pete]

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

They probably should have scored 10 tonight. Their defending of set pieces is worry though. Madrid didn't put any pressure on the ball & Barca ran rings around them. Interestingly Messi played in the centre forward position for most of the game. He seems to save his best for EL Clasico.

From a couple of years ago...

j3gL1O12XaM

[mypost]

The whole Barca team can be summed up in one word: WOW! Hopefully they can do the business this week. It'd be a shame for such a wonderful team to not grace the Champions League Final.

It's easy to look wonderful :rolleyes: against a side who can't defend. When Chelsea put it up to them last week, they couldn't cope.

[DeLorean]

Obviously scoring 6 at the Bernabeau is a big achievement but I think it says far more about Madrid than Barcelona.

[gustavo]

Obviously scoring 6 at the Bernabeau is a big achievement but I think it says far more about Madrid than Barcelona.

Well Barca have already scored 100 goals in the league this season before this Real hadn't lost since the last time they had played Barca

[jmurphyc]

It's easy to look wonderful :rolleyes: against a side who can't defend. When Chelsea put it up to them last week, they couldn't cope.

They couldn't cope? Correct me if I'm wrong, but did Chelsea stuff them? No. They got a 0-0 draw. Fair play to them, they're the first team to stop Barca scoring at the Nou Camp this season, but all Barcelona need is a score draw at Stamford Bridge to get the final. Not beyond the realms of possibility. The tie is still very much in the balance.

147 goals in all competitions this season would suggest that they are a wonderful side. Not many teams score that many in a season.

[chuckie]

Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest

And Hull and West Brom are not in the same league as Real, Barca, Valencia or Atletico. Whats your point?

[stojkovic]

including 2 in 2 different world cup finals, 58 and 70, which I don't think anyone else has done

Vava 1958 and 62
Breitner 1972 and 82
Zidane 1998 and 06

[DeLorean]

Well Barca have already scored 100 goals in the league this season before this Real hadn't lost since the last time they had played Barca

Ya they're a quality side, no doubt. Just saying that Real are absolutely brutal, I don't care how many games they went unbeaten. It's like they don't have a centre midfield.


Vava 1958 and 62
Breitner 1972 and 82
Zidane 1998 and 06

1974;)

[Emmet7]

Big test for Messi tomorrow night against Chelsea.

Putting 6 past a worst in living memory Real Madrid is one thing, but playing a blinder against Chelsea is another.

And if they beat Chelsea, there is the small matter of Man Utd in the final.

Does anyone think Messi will be world class against Chelsea tomorrow and again against Utd in the final?

This is his chance, to prove that he is the world class player everyone believes he is.

[Closed Account 2]

Big test for Messi tomorrow night against Chelsea.

Putting 6 past a worst in living memory Real Madrid is one thing, but playing a blinder against Chelsea is another.

And if they beat Chelsea, there is the small matter of Man Utd in the final.

Does anyone think Messi will be world class against Chelsea tomorrow and again against Utd in the final?

This is his chance, to prove that he is the world class player everyone believes he is.


It depends, if Chelsea put 2-3 players marking him then he might struggle, but then you would expect Xavi, Iniesta and Henry to profit more from the extra space you would assume they'll have.

Tomorrow's match should be interesting, you have the finest collection of individual talent on one hand (Barca) and the best coach of the modern era on the other (Hiddink). It's very hard to call but I think Chelsea might just edge it. Drogba is slipping back into form and I think Chelsea could profit from sloppy defending (by Barca) at set plays. Puyol has not looked too convincing at this stage of the season and with physical players like Ivanovic and Alex Chelsea could have chances. Tactically Hiddink rarely get's it wrong (though if there is a statistical weakness it occurs when his teams play Iberian opposition), and I think he'll play the right system tomorrow night. If there is a manager who knows how to snuff out Messi, it's Hiddink.

I think the winner of the tie tomorrow night will win in Rome, only a crippling injury / suspension or a freak incident during the game in Rome can prevent this in my opinion. In fact I would go so far as to say every team in that side of the draw was stronger than every team in the other side of the knockout draw (with the exception of Lisbon and Lyon).

[Roadend]

Theyu don't have to worry about Puyol as he's suspended.

[DeLorean]

I think the winner of the tie tomorrow night will win in Rome, only a crippling injury / suspension or a freak incident during the game in Rome can prevent this in my opinion.

Would it really have to take something that extraordinary for the European Champions to retain their title? They are 6 points ahead of Chelsea with a game in hand in the league as well as winning the title the last 2 years. Surely the difference between both defences would give them a fighting chance against Barca. You are pretty much saying that if it's a level playing field United have no chance which I think is a bit ridiculous.


In fact I would go so far as to say every team in that side of the draw was stronger than every team in the other side of the knockout draw (with the exception of Lisbon and Lyon).

Are you actually saying that all these teams are better than Man Utd-
Juventus
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Liverpool

or did you mean they are better than the teams that United had on their side of the draw, which was the easier side I admit.

[Emmet7]

I have to say I was impressed with Messi tonight, and I would probably give him the MOTM. Xavi and Ineista went missing for long periods, Eto was quiet enough, Pique did well, as did a few others.

Daniel Alves was a disaster, thank god he's not there for the final. Wasn't Man Utd interested in him? Lucky escape if they were.

If Messi can repeat that performance in the final and a couple others improve their game, Barca have a chance of taking home the trophey. I hope they do it tbh, getting sick of Man Utd winning everything.

[Closed Account 2]

Would it really have to take something that extraordinary for the European Champions to retain their title? They are 6 points ahead of Chelsea with a game in hand in the league as well as winning the title the last 2 years. Surely the difference between both defences would give them a fighting chance against Barca. You are pretty much saying that if it's a level playing field United have no chance which I think is a bit ridiculous.

I think it would take a non-normal set of circumstances. Aside from last night they have not convinced me at all in Europe this season. In the group stages they only beat Celtic and Aalborg this season. Celtic are an average European team, they don't have the class they used to back around 2003 and without players like Larsson and Hartson they lack dynamism at the very top level of competition. Aalborg are, to put it simply, a very poor side.

In the knockout stages they did well against a reasonably good Inter side but examining the game in greater detail, Inter created significant chances in the second leg in particular - less profligate strikers would have punished Manchester United. Against Porto they struggled in the first leg and other teams, with a bit more potency, would have done a job on them in the second leg. At the Dragao they ceeded so much posession to the home team in the latter stages of the second half it was unreal.

Of course we won't get the chance to see a normal game now as Barca have been hamstrung by the loss of both full backs for the final over very questionable decisions. I still expect Barca to put up a good game and I think the class they have in midfield (Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi ahead of them) will tell in the end, but it won't be the one sided affair it would be under normal circumstances.



Are you actually saying that all these teams are better than Man Utd-
Juventus
Real Madrid
Bayern Munich
Liverpool

or did you mean they are better than the teams that United had on their side of the draw, which was the easier side I admit.

Contrast that with Juventus, who by the way have at least 3 players who would walk into their team (Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved) and a few others who are probably as good as what is at Old Trafford, or will be in the near future (Chiellini, Giovinco, Marchisio). Juventus topped what was without question the hardest group. They were undefeated against Real Madrid, Zenit (who hasd crushed all before them in most of 2008 - including Man Utd in Monaco). I thought they were unlucky against Chelsea and the injury to Nedved during that game was telling. I would fancy Juventus to progress over Man Utd over the two legs.

Real Madrid again came through a tough group. I think they suffered due to the change in management. Huntelaar was brought to cover for Van Nistelrooy, but he was not registered for the Champions League - instead they picked Lassana Diarra. I am still not sure why they did this - on paper it was to cover Mamadou Diarra and Ruben De La Red both of whom were out for the season. But in reality Gago, Guti or even Metzelder / Miguel Torres could have been pushed into defensive midfiled - they should have registered Huntelaar, and their lack of cutting edge upfront was telling in the knockout stage. I think a fully fit Real Madrid with the likes of M. Diarra, Van Nistelroy and a fully fit Robben would test any team, including Man Utd. In Casillas they have one of the best players in Euro 2008 and there is strength in other areas of the team too.

Bayern, on balance, are probably not as strong as Man Utd, but again they have some world class players, Ribery, Schwienstiger, Lucio, Lahm and Klose are all class players. They sailed through a tougher group than Man Utd (undefeated against Fiorentina, Lyons and Steaua) and destroyed an admittedly weak Lisbon side - but to get that many goals in the knockouts in both legs is sensational.

Liverpool, in my opinion, are significantly stonger than Man Utd. They have beaten them twice this season already including the easy win they had at Old Trafford. Man Utd cannot / could not cope with Torres (best striker in Europe at the moment) and the invention and guile of Xabi Alonso and the supporting cast in midfield. I'm not a massive fan of Liverpool and for much of the 1990s and 2000s they were average, but this squad they have now is fantastic. Like I say they've already beaten them twice this season and I think they would do the same again.

A great mythology is developing around Man Utd this season thanks to the English press and one or two on here seem to be falling for it. Yes they are a good side, but they are by no means unbeatable. Zenit demolished them at the start of the season, Villareal nullified them in the Group stage and Porto made them look average at best. In the league they've been slipping lately, Liverpool and Fulham beat them and they just edged past Villa and Sunderland. They are beatable and Barca have the players to do it.

[shakermaker1982]

cfdh - Man City beat Man Utd twice last season but so what? It doesn't make them a better side than United so to say Liverpool is 'significantly stronger' than Man Utd is surprising. Liverpool's squad is not fantastic and if I'm being honest is the main reason why their title challenge has stumbled since January. An injury to Torres and they have no decent back up as striker. If Gerrard gets injured they look to Leiva and Yossi. Man Utd on the other hand have the best squad in Europe. Top class cover in every position.

Man Utd have not played as well as they did last year but they are still on track for a double which is no mean feat and are starting to hit top gear right now. They were outstanding against Inter away. I note you only mention the Second leg. On another night United could have taken a four goal advantage back to Old Trafford. I was also impressed with their performance away to Porto when most of the world had written them off after being second best to Porto in the first leg.

[DeLorean]

I think it would take a non-normal set of circumstances. Aside from last night they have not convinced me at all in Europe this season. In the group stages they only beat Celtic and Aalborg this season. Celtic are an average European team, they don't have the class they used to back around 2003 and without players like Larsson and Hartson they lack dynamism at the very top level of competition. Aalborg are, to put it simply, a very poor side.

My God man there was only 3 teams to play in the group altogether. Who cares how bad Celtic or Aalborg are. They beat them both 3-0 anyway and drew at Celtic Park where the majority of teams don't get a result. The cruised through the group in 2nd gear (if that!). Also Celtic have qualified for the knock out stage twice in the last 3 years, something they never achieved when Larsson or the great John Hartson were there. I agree that they were a better side back then though.


In the knockout stages they did well against a reasonably good Inter side but examining the game in greater detail, Inter created significant chances in the second leg in particular - less profligate strikers would have punished Manchester United. Against Porto they struggled in the first leg and other teams, with a bit more potency, would have done a job on them in the second leg. At the Dragao they ceeded so much posession to the home team in the latter stages of the second half it was unreal.

I think everybody knows that United had their sticky patch around this period, for whatever reason. It happens. United were very poor in a number of games which included Inter and Porto at home as well as the league defeats to Liverpool and Fulham and even the victories against Villa and Sunderland. It's very rare a team goes through a season without some dip but a blind man could see that United a nearer where they should be at the moment.


Of course we won't get the chance to see a normal game now as Barca have been hamstrung by the loss of both full backs for the final over very questionable decisions. I still expect Barca to put up a good game and I think the class they have in midfield (Xavi, Iniesta, and Messi ahead of them) will tell in the end, but it won't be the one sided affair it would be under normal circumstances.

You clearly have some deep routed hatred for United. That's fine but I really think it's making you see things very hazy. There is absolutely nothing to suggest that Barcelona v United would be a one-sided affair under any circumstances. United are without their best semi final performer imo and Barcelona are arguably without their worst, in Alves. Of course it's a blow to be without their regular full backs but it surely couldn't be used as an excuse in defeat. If Iniesta and Henry are both out you may have more of an argument. If United lose I certainly won't be saying- if only they had Fletcher or Hargreaves.


Contrast that with Juventus, who by the way have at least 3 players who would walk into their team (Buffon, Del Piero, Nedved) and a few others who are probably as good as what is at Old Trafford, or will be in the near future (Chiellini, Giovinco, Marchisio). Juventus topped what was without question the hardest group. They were undefeated against Real Madrid, Zenit (who hasd crushed all before them in most of 2008 - including Man Utd in Monaco). I thought they were unlucky against Chelsea and the injury to Nedved during that game was telling. I would fancy Juventus to progress over Man Utd over the two legs.

You're obsessed with the group stages of the Champs Lge for some reason. Yes Juve came through impressively and I do believe they are a good side. Having said that, they are in 3rd place in Serie A, 11 points behind a team United disposed of quite comfortably over 2 legs (should have been over after the first leg despite some scares in the second). There is absolutely nothing to suggest Juve would have given United more of a test, let alone knock them out.

As for Zenit crushing all before them, well they won the UEFA Cup very impressively but it was the UEFA Cup.


Real Madrid again came through a tough group. I think they suffered due to the change in management. Huntelaar was brought to cover for Van Nistelrooy, but he was not registered for the Champions League - instead they picked Lassana Diarra. I am still not sure why they did this - on paper it was to cover Mamadou Diarra and Ruben De La Red both of whom were out for the season. But in reality Gago, Guti or even Metzelder / Miguel Torres could have been pushed into defensive midfiled - they should have registered Huntelaar, and their lack of cutting edge upfront was telling in the knockout stage. I think a fully fit Real Madrid with the likes of M. Diarra, Van Nistelroy and a fully fit Robben would test any team, including Man Utd. In Casillas they have one of the best players in Euro 2008 and there is strength in other areas of the team too.

Real are a mess. I'm sure with better management and a couple of signings they could be better. They are a long way off United/Chelsea/Barcelona/Liverpool's level at the moment though, I think they've proved that.


Bayern, on balance, are probably not as strong as Man Utd, but again they have some world class players, Ribery, Schwienstiger, Lucio, Lahm and Klose are all class players. They sailed through a tougher group than Man Utd (undefeated against Fiorentina, Lyons and Steaua) and destroyed an admittedly weak Lisbon side - but to get that many goals in the knockouts in both legs is sensational.

The groups again:confused: Not sure that group is much better than United's by the way. They were freaky results against Sporting but I think they showed how misleading they were in the next round.


Liverpool, in my opinion, are significantly stonger than Man Utd. They have beaten them twice this season already including the easy win they had at Old Trafford. Man Utd cannot / could not cope with Torres (best striker in Europe at the moment) and the invention and guile of Xabi Alonso and the supporting cast in midfield.

You're very selective of your results. Vidic and co dealt very well with Torres in his first 2 games against them. I agree though he is the best striker in Europe/The World and he was bound to have a day where he'd do well against United. Seriously though, once off results withstanding, how could you come to the conclusion Liverpool are significantly stronger than United. What's the point in even having these competitions if winning them doesn't offer some kind of proof that you are the best? United are on the verge of 3 in a row PL titles- to most normal thinking people this would indicate they are the strongest team in that league, not significantly weaker than those they finish ahead of. United have done better than Liverpool in every competition they entered this season.


I'm not a massive fan of Liverpool and for much of the 1990s and 2000s they were average, but this squad they have now is fantastic. Like I say they've already beaten them twice this season and I think they would do the same again.

Even most die hard Pool fans would admit that their biggest weakness is the lack of quality in their squad. Their full backs are poor, they have only one striker of note and they rely on Lucas when one of their midfielders is absent. United have been changing their team constantly with little difference to their performance level.


A great mythology is developing around Man Utd this season thanks to the English press and one or two on here seem to be falling for it. Yes they are a good side, but they are by no means unbeatable. Zenit demolished them at the start of the season, Villareal nullified them in the Group stage and Porto made them look average at best. In the league they've been slipping lately, Liverpool and Fulham beat them and they just edged past Villa and Sunderland. They are beatable and Barca have the players to do it.

I don't think anybody is suggesting United are unbeatable. The English press always go overboard about everything so we'll leave them out of it. As for Zenit demolishing ten man United 2-1, ok but I don't think the Euro Super Cup was a priority in fairness. I'd add my list of teams Liverpool didn't beat or only barely beat this season but I think I've done enough writing.

[Docboy]

When Messi scores against English opposition in the CL, then we can call him great. Getafe and levente are not Man Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool or Arsenal, not in the same league to be honest and if any of the English top sides played those Spanish teams it would be 6 or 7 nil.

I have a feeling a lot of people on this thread learned their soccer from watching tv and not playing the game. Soccer is a game about pitting yourself against others, it's no use being good against useless teams and useless against good teams.

Thank god we can finally call Messi great after his 38th goal this season.:)

[OwlsFan]

Voted World Player of the Year. Not sure he had huge competition this year though.

[shakermaker1982]

best player I've ever seen in the flesh.

Good to see I was spot on about my Liverpool assessment from 6 months ago.

[kingcorner]

Have been watching this guy for a long time since he first came on the scene. I have to admit I think he is a tad over-rated. He just never did it for me, dont know why.

I think Xavi and Iniesta make him look better then what he is. They are head and shoulders the 2 best players on the planet.

[superfrank]

hokq-7olthE
Remind you of anyone?

[SkStu]

hokq-7olthE
Remind you of anyone?

a young Aiden McGeady. :)