The 2nd place qualifying table

[frog-gufc]

i think its disgraceful that one 2nd place team wont even make the playoffs, the 4th place concacaf team plays the 5th place south amercian team for a spot in the world cup, surely the type of team to finish 4th in the concacaf shouldnt be awarded a playoff ahead of one of the europeans who play against a higher standard of teams

[Bungle]

To be honest, if we take 7 points from the final 4 games we should be okay. Alot of other teams have been dropping points and teams like Croatia and Bosnia have tough games ahead. I personally think that the team with the lowest points total will be the Scottish group.

[jbyrne]

i think its disgraceful that one 2nd place team wont even make the playoffs, the 4th place concacaf team plays the 5th place south amercian team for a spot in the world cup, surely the type of team to finish 4th in the concacaf shouldnt be awarded a playoff ahead of one of the europeans who play against a higher standard of teams

didnt realise that. despite the fact that european teams dominate the last 16 of the wc regularly our representation seems to get smaller and smaller all the time

[frog-gufc]

i had thought scotlands group was exempt from it beacause they only have 5 teams in the group

[sullanefc]

i had thought scotlands group was exempt from it beacause they only have 5 teams in the group

No, its just that points against 6th place teams don't count in the 2nd place table. Thats why it is better for us if montenegro finish bottom instead of Georgia because we dropped points against montenegro and have maximum against Georgia.

[Predator]

I hate this whole thing where people simply accept that 2nd place is the only real possibility. Ireland can finish top, we should always be aiming for top place regardless and we should always play to win. As fans, we need to get behind the team and instil a stronger belief in them! Although, in the scenario that we do have to play in the play-offs, has anyone considered the possibility that we might get the North?

[paul_oshea]

the north have played 2 more games and they have had their wins from their home games bar san marino(granted they were unlucky in slovenia and slovakia), i doubt they were get many more points than what they have now, when they go back on the road. I would be extremely surprised if we met them.

[irishultra]

ye the norths position is fairly misleading. although the czechs had all those retirements there last week ujfalujsi(spelling?), fenin, baros, even janklusovski thinking about retirning, so it gives them a chance, they'd still be a far better team than the north without these players so i cant see them getting anything in prague.

the way i see it in order to finish second it will be impossible to end up as the second placed team with the lowest points. the bulgaria away game is huge, really we should be trying to get 3 points now.

[geysir]

Thats a good thought IU, to do what we have to do, to finish second, means a good overall 2nd place points level.
The way the North's group opponents are self destructing, they could do a Foinavon yet.

No chance for us to meet a low ranked 2nd placed team either in an official or unofficial seeded play off draw

[Gather round]

i think its disgraceful that one 2nd place team wont even make the playoffs, the 4th place concacaf team plays the 5th place south amercian team for a spot in the world cup, surely the type of team to finish 4th in the concacaf shouldnt be awarded a playoff ahead of one of the europeans who play against a higher standard of teams

On the other hand, the 18th best team in Europe can't really complain about missing out on the finals. They wouldn't be in the European finals either (at least not until the crazy expansion to 24 teams, if it ever happens).


I hate this whole thing where people simply accept that 2nd place is the only real possibility. Ireland can finish top, we should always be aiming for top place regardless and we should always play to win. As fans, we need to get behind the team and instil a stronger belief in them!

Agree some of the comments above are slightly pessimistic. You've had a good first half of the tournament overall, drawn away in Italy, effectively eliminated the three bottom teams. You are capable on evidence so far of winning in Bulgaria, and if you avoid defeat there I think you'll make second at least.


Although, in the scenario that we do have to play in the play-offs, has anyone considered the possibility that we might get the North?

Well, it's a big 'if', as is well known we don't travel too well :)

Assuming both make the play-offs, and an open draw, 6-1 chance of any team drawing a specific other. But then there's the possibility of the draw being seeded (whether openly or not) as Geysir and others mentioned in a previous thread.


the north have played 2 more games and they have had their wins from their home games bar san marino(granted they were unlucky in slovenia and slovakia), i doubt they were get many more points than what they have now, when they go back on the road. I would be extremely surprised if we met them

A fair summary, although personally I thought we were too negative in the Slovakia and Slovenia away games. Here's the table with San Marino excluded:

sk 4-9
si 6-8
ni 5-7
cs 5-5
pl 4-4

All five still in the mix, although clearly Slovakia are now the favorite (they're the only team to win away from home). The runner-up could conceivably make it without winning an away game other than SMR.


ye the norths position is fairly misleading. although the czechs had all those retirements there last week ujfalujsi(spelling?), fenin, baros, even janklusovski thinking about retirning, so it gives them a chance, they'd still be a far better team than the north without these players so i cant see them getting anything in prague

The stripped down table above is clear enough. We're effectively third rather than first, but I think we'll overtake Slovenia. The play-off place depends on which the two big boys, Poland and Czechia get their act together first. If neither do- and even without Boruc's antics, the Polish defence was abysmal in Belfast- we can make second.

If all games bar SMR end as home wins:

sk 8-15
cs 8-11
si 8-11
pl 8-10
ni 8-10

Looks like the runner-up will struggle to progress...


Thats a good thought IU, to do what we have to do, to finish second, means a good overall 2nd place points level.
The way the North's group opponents are self destructing, they could do a Foinavon yet

Er...we started the series as the third seeds. Even if you don't equate that to third favorite, it's hardly comparable to a 100-1 shot? :p

[gspain]

Thats a good thought IU, to do what we have to do, to finish second, means a good overall 2nd place points level.
The way the North's group opponents are self destructing, they could do a Foinavon yet.

No chance for us to meet a low ranked 2nd placed team either in an official or unofficial seeded play off draw

The worst runner up could well come from NI's group but hard to tell at this stage. I wouldn't rule them out but they'll most likely have to beat Slovakia at home and win in either Prague or Poland.

UEFA/FIFA have not announced details yet as to how the draw will be structured. It is also important to us that the likes of France finish ahead of Serbia because if there are a couple of big teams in the draw it will definitely be seeded.

7 points should do it and we'll probably need a draw in Bulgaria anyway to get the runner up spot.

[Gather round]

UEFA/FIFA have not announced details yet as to how the draw will be structured. It is also important to us that the likes of France finish ahead of Serbia because if there are a couple of big teams in the draw it will definitely be seeded

Apologies if this has been done to death already...what's the precedent from past tournaments for such a seeding?

[geysir]

A precedent in this context would be a draw procedure from a past play off draw which would be used for future PO draws.

The "precedent" some of us are alluding to was the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey.
UEFA claimed it was an open draw, names simply pulled out of the hat at random.
The reality was that all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first.
The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1

[paul_oshea]

lads have an awful feeling we are going to meet slovenia :exclamation:

[geysir]

Awful or awesome?

[paul_oshea]

Awful or awesome?

both ;)

[Stuttgart88]

A precedent in this context would be a draw procedure from a past play off draw which would be used for future PO draws.

The "precedent" some of us are alluding to was the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey.
UEFA claimed it was an open draw, names simply pulled out of the hat at random.
The reality was that all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first.
The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt.

[gspain]

Subsequent playoff draws have been seeded on FIFA rankings if I recall correctly. France (probably) and Germany (possibly) could be invovled in the playoffs. There is no way they'll be allowed to meet each other.

[geysir]

Germany/Russia, France

You could argue, that the task of finishing first in our group would be less difficult than winning a play off against those teams.

[jbyrne]

It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt.

allegedly the balls containing the unnofficially seeded teams were left on a radiator for a while before the draw i heard so that whoever was picking them out would know by touch which ones to pull out each time. maybe an urban myth but thats what i heard from a decent source at the time

[tetsujin1979]

allegedly the balls containing the unnofficially seeded teams were left on a radiator for a while before the draw i heard so that whoever was picking them out would know by touch which ones to pull out each time. maybe an urban myth but thats what i heard from a decent source at the time
same story does the rounds for the scottish cups when Celtic and Rangers are kept apart in the draw until the later rounds

[geysir]

So it's true then

[Gather round]

the infamous PO draw for Euro 2000,
Scotland and England, Israel and Denmark, Slovenia and Ukraine, Ireland and Turkey...all the top 4 ranked countries were drawn against weaker countries and played away first. The odds against that happening, somewhere around 270/1

With due respect to Denmark, Ukraine and Turkey, did they really have the clout within UEFA/ TV drawing power to justify any rigging? And wouldn't your fans and the Scots, travelling in likely large numbers, have been potentially just as attractive?


It was slightly worse. There was originally to be an open draw then speculation mounted - probably lobbied by the bigger teams - that it'd be seeded. Only when there were complaints did UEFA finally agree to no seeding and then, voila, the utterly unfeasible outcome you mention.

Totally corrupt

Do we have any links to mainstream media covering this at the time or since? I didn't realise it was seen as such a conspiracy.


Subsequent playoff draws have been seeded on FIFA rankings if I recall correctly. France (probably) and Germany (possibly) could be invovled in the playoffs. There is no way they'll be allowed to meet each other

Look on the bright side. Win your three other remaining qualifiers so that, even if finishing behind Italy, you have 21 or 22 points. That might well be enough to get into the top four ranked play-off teams anyway?


Germany/Russia, France

You could argue, that the task of finishing first in our group would be less difficult than winning a play off against those teams

Beating the World champions plus four other teams less difficult than a two legged play off against an off-color France or Germany? Surely not.

[geysir]

With due respect to Denmark, Ukraine and Turkey, did they really have the clout within UEFA/ TV drawing power to justify any rigging? And wouldn't your fans and the Scots, travelling in likely large numbers, have been potentially just as attractive?
What have fans and tv got to do with ranking which affects seeding?

Stutts has accurately added the icing to the rigging.
It's no big deal from a football perspective because thats how the draw would have been if it were seeded. It was the blatant cynicism of UEFA, that right in front of the European media they thought they could pull off a stroke like that, first calling for a seeded draw, then agreeing after protests to holding a free draw, then hey presto, what do you know a 270/1 accumulator, ain't life full of surprises.


Do we have any links to mainstream media covering this at the time or since? I didn't realise it was seen as such a conspiracy.
That's how I recall the news reports at the time. It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad. Check it out for yourself if you really want to.



Beating the World champions plus four other teams less difficult than a two legged play off against an off-color France or Germany? Surely not.
Or finishing on top of the group to an off colour Italy,
as Roy Keane would say - the ex champs.

Depends on a way of looking at it.
We would have to get good results to finish second anyway.
Then straight after go into a play with say Russia?

I am saying that one could make an argument that it might be less difficult to go the extra 10 yards in the group to get the 3 points? to finish first, than to face Russia in a play off.

[bennocelt]

This kind of thing is common enough - i know two good examples from the world cup -

England re Sardinia due to there fans!!!

And Brazil and England getting to play in Japan - re thats exactly what the Japanese fans wanted
And China playing in Korea:)

[gspain]

This kind of thing is common enough - i know two good examples from the world cup -

England re Sardinia due to there fans!!!

And Brazil and England getting to play in Japan - re thats exactly what the Japanese fans wanted
And China playing in Korea:)

England were seeded in Sardinia. There is an argument that they shouldn't have been seeded though.

Brazil were sent to Korea in 2002 and crossed over like many other groups.

China were fixed for Korea to allow travelling fans greater access - no real disadvantage to anyone here.

[Colbert Report]

I remember reading Jack Chartlon's world cup diary. He complained that two of the South American teams were kept apart in the draw because of "geographical reasons" but then Ireland were drawn in the same group as the English and he wasn't happy.

[geysir]

4 SA teams - only natural that they would be spread out.
But 14 or so European teams divided into 6 groups.
Jack was not exactly the brightest spark :)

[Gather round]

What have fans and tv got to do with ranking which affects seeding?

Who claimed they did? I was suggesting that TV markets and likely fan following to a tournament, were just as likely justifications as World ranking for rigging the draw. Not that I agree with the other conspiracy theorists on here who think it was rigged.


Stutts has accurately added the icing to the rigging

He's agreed with your conspiracy theory?


It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad

Bully for you.


as Roy Keane would say - the ex champs

They'll be the current champs for another year and more. So your mate Roy is just wrong.


I am saying that one could make an argument that it might be less difficult to go the extra 10 yards in the group to get the 3 points? to finish first, than to face Russia in a play off

In practice you probably need another 12 points (ie winning every game, including Italy, Bulgaria away and Cyprus who beat you by a rugby score last time). It clearly won't be easy. You can expect Italy to get maximum points from their other games.

If you don't quite manage that (and finish with, say, 22 points to Italy's 24) it won't be easy to win a play-off to qualify. But I reckon it will be a bit less diffcult than the qualifiers to date, or those to come, or the whole 10.

[Colbert Report]

Cyprus who beat you by a rugby score last time).

I've never seen a rugby game finish 1-0, 1-1, or even 5-2.

[geysir]

Who claimed they did? I was suggesting that TV markets and likely fan following to a tournament, were just as likely justifications as World ranking for rigging the draw. Not that I agree with the other conspiracy theorists on here who think it was rigged.

I don't know what the feck you are waffling on about.
Deal with facts as they were represented by us and less of your silly juvenile jibes.

If you dispute the facts as we present them then find something of substance from the facts of the matter to argue against what we report.
Simply put your argument (if you even have an argument) is that despite UEFA saying they would first have a seeded draw, then saying they would not have a seeded draw, then producing the results of the "draw", you are claiming that it was a pure 270/1 coincidence that their wished for play off pairings materialised.

If that's it, then fine.

[Stuttgart88]

That's how I recall the news reports at the time. It's enough for me that Stutts agrees I am not mad. Check it out for yourself if you really want to.
That's my totally clear recollection too.

Gather Round, I thought it clearly at the time and the memory has stuck in my mind like a lot of things over the years from following the BIG. I've no reason whatsoever to make it up.

I've no idea whether it was based on rankings or not, but it was 100% obvious that the 4 teams UEFA wanted in the finals were kept apart and drawn away from home first in the draw. There was broad consensus in the media who the 4 "seeds" would be.

[Stuttgart88]

Check this article out

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_19991013/ai_n14279130/

It doesn't mention who the 4 "seeds" might have been but it clearly hints that there was a movement towards having a seeded draw which was shot down under protest. This at least backs up part of the assertion.

GR may continue to have his doubts but as soon as the actual draw was made I was astonished that the 4 mooted seeds were separated and drawn away first. 270-1 or whatever it was, as Geysir says.

[Stuttgart88]

This article strongly suggests England, Ukraine and Turkey would be UEFA's seeds and it draws clear reference to the suspicion that UEFA would prefer the biggest TV audiences to be represented, so presumably Denmark would be 4th.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/1999/oct/12/newsstory.sport3

[NeilMcD]

lads have an awful feeling we are going to meet slovenia :exclamation:
Why would it be awful to meet slovenia.

[Gather round]

Apologies for the snide and wind-up in my late-night post yesterday. Shouldn't post after the pub...thanks also for the links to contemporary press articles at the time.

Geysir, I wasn't doubting the bald facts as you described them, rather asking for more detail before deciding whether I agreed with your conclusion drawn from them. Clearly UEFA self-contradicted and were even more shifty than usual, but as Glenn Moore said in one of the linked articles, it wasn't 100% certain (or even 99.7%, 1-270) which criteria which would be used to identify the seeds (current World ranking, TV watching population, affluence, travelling support or whatever). Denmark were a relatively recent champion, but on at least one of those three criteria they wouldn't have been clearly ahead of Scotland, Israel or the Republic of Ireland.

[Stuttgart88]

I can't prove it, but trust me GR, the 4 mooted seeds were definitely those drawn apart, and away first. It wasn't just the print media suggesting those 4, it was the TV and mainly the radio. Unfortunately soccercentral.ie or foot.ie probably weren't around then to check the archives!

[Gather round]

I can't prove it, but trust me GR, the 4 mooted seeds were definitely those drawn apart, and away first. It wasn't just the print media suggesting those 4, it was the TV and mainly the radio. Unfortunately soccercentral.ie or foot.ie probably weren't around then to check the archives!

Stuttgart- I'm happy to accept beyond reasonable doubt that UEFA were corrupt in 2000.

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

PS apologies to Geysir if I've misunderstood his point about winning the group being potentially easier than getting through a play-off with France or Germany, but put like that I can't see it. You're comparing two admittedly difficult fixtures, albeit against slightly below par opposition, with four including the World champions and two away from home.

[geysir]

Apologies for the snide and wind-up in my late-night post yesterday. Shouldn't post after the pub...thanks also for the links to contemporary press articles at the time.

Okay, no problem then.

[geysir]

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.

[Stuttgart88]

Stuttgart- I'm happy to accept beyond reasonable doubt that UEFA were corrupt in 2000.

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

PS apologies to Geysir if I've misunderstood his point about winning the group being potentially easier than getting through a play-off with France or Germany, but put like that I can't see it. You're comparing two admittedly difficult fixtures, albeit against slightly below par opposition, with four including the World champions and two away from home.Thanks.

Yep, in 1999 we all thought that UEFA should have had a clear rule at the start.

I can see Geysir's point - Bulgaria away, Cyprus away, Italy Home, Montenegro at home are probably more winnable than a 2 leg play off against a good team. It's very marginal. Italy could also be seen to be below par - even 3rd rate if you believe some of the misery merchants here after Bari. Ireland's play off experience has been poor.

[gspain]

Wouldn't they save themselves an embarrassing problem in future tournaments, simply by putting a seeding for the play-off based on ranking position, into the tournament rules in advance?

.

The problem with this is that the likes of France could slip down that seeding. Better to keep your options open.

[Stuttgart88]

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.Are you calling me a woman?

[Gather round]

The problem with this is that the likes of France could slip down that seeding. Better to keep your options open

Fair point (although of course a big player could drop embarrassingly to third place, as England did last time).

I suppose I'm wary of giving UEFA and FIFA any more chance to fiddle things. I still think Yugoslavia should have been allowed into Euro 1992, for example :)

[NeilMcD]

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

[DeLorean]

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

It looks like the first legs will be played on Saturday, November 14th with the return legs on Wednesday, November 18th. I'm only basing this on preliminary/actual dates penciled in for the playoffs in the other continents. Presume they'll be generally the same.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification

[tetsujin1979]

Don't think the dates have been finalised yet, they're not on the wikipedia entry for qualifying - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FIFA_World_Cup_qualification_(UEFA) - and all that's on this article on fifa.com - http://www.fifa.com/worldcup/news/newsid=916071.html#determining+europes+runners - is
The four European Zone play-offs will take place in November 2009.

[tricky_colour]

If more women were involved with following Ireland, we would have an exact photographic memory account of every grievance inflicted upon us over the past 50 years.

Now, now, now, now, don't bring your marital problems into the the mix! :p

[Superhoops]

What are the exact dates for these playoffs. Tried to find them on the web

According to the official regulations published on the FIFA website here (http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/tournament/competition/fifa_wc_south_africa_2010_regulations_en_14123.pdf ), Article 17, para.3, they have to be played between 14th and 18th November 2009.

[Crosby87]

Bulgaria out. But, this is what we will be dealing with and we all know it.