Quality players in the international wilderness.

[Greenbod]

Hang on just a second, if we had known that they'd have to play almost the entire match a man down I think all predictions would be out the window.

So, what do predict for the return game assuming our team is much the same and they play with 11 throughout?...................and how do you predict the worst selection of players you have ever seen in your life will get on in Bulgaria?

[Hibernian]

The boys seem to forget we weren't playing the Italian Rugby team on Wednesday night. We are playing team who have won a world cup medals and one the greatest mangers the game has ever produced.

We don't have world class players like we used too. The more look at it the more I suppose we could have and should have won that game with ten men for 87 minutes other teams would have won. But no team would have hammered Italy like some suggest.. No team. Italy don't give you chances even Spain only had couple chances in there game in Euro 08 (remember they only won on peno's)

We had ten corners to one they had one shot on target the whole game even against ten men away from home against world champions is not a bad thing.

Once we learn and gain confidence from this result it will be turning point

We aint Brazil....I was very proud of the performance it was gutsy and like I said wednesday once you give a 100% thats all you can ask for.

One thing we have to do is improve on our set pieces Hunt and Gibson (his 3 corners were rubbish) its our biggest weakness at moment we never look like going score from corner or set piece.

[Dr. Ogba]

One thing that struck me about last night (and most other people too) was the horrible bench we had. When we had Hunt playing we had literally nobody who could make any sort of impact and most our bench was composed of fringe players for their club.
How many of the experienced options below, each playing well for their club should be considered? I think each of them offer something different and worthwhile, surely worthy of a squad place. Our strength in depth in the current squad really has me worried if we get hit with a few injuries.

- Andy Reid
- Lee Carsley
- Rory Delap
- Clinton Morrison
- Daryl Murphy
- Stephen Carr

Replace what we had on the bench last night with those guys and I think we'd have serious options to change a game. Right now we're too predictable.

the title of the thread interested me and then I read through your list, bloody hell how you could label any of these players quality is beyond me....in fact i'd call each of them "has-beens" or "never was". the only guy i'd have in the squad on that list is Andy Reid.

I'll name a proper replacement for all of your list and each of these lads would have more potential to make an impact from the bench

Lee Carsley - the clamour to bring this man back astonishes me, he's over the bloody hill and wasn't even that good in the first place

Alternatives:John Joe O'Toole / Garvan / S. Quinn / James McCarthy / Chris McCann

Rory Delap - I'd only rate him as a CM and he wouldn't be in for me....just not good enough

Alternatives:See above

Clinton Morrisson: I've always been a fan of his effort whenever he plays for us but he's over the hill and not even banging in goals in the championship anymore

Alternatives: Our options in this department are admittedly poor but I don't think he'd displace any of the current incumbants. Maybe Cillian Sheridan at a push might be worth a shot.

Daryl Murphy: See above, doesn't even get his game for a mediocre Sunderland side. I'd have him in ahead of Stokes but that's not really saying much.

Stephen Carr: :eek: please....never again...

Alternatives: Kevin Foley, J O'Brien, Marc Wilson, Eddie Nolan, Sean St Ledger, my ould granny

[Colbert Report]

So, what do predict for the return game assuming our team is much the same and they play with 11 throughout?...................and how do you predict the worst selection of players you have ever seen in your life will get on in Bulgaria?

Our team won't be the same, as we will hopefully have Duff, McGeady, and possibly Finnan available for selection. If Trap were to put out a midfield of Keogh, Andrews, Whelan and Hunt like he did against the Italians I think we'd be in for a hiding.

[irishfan86]

I think the biggest problem with a lot of the posts I see in here is the extreme statements.

If we're being honest, there probably isn't much difference between playing Whelan or Carsley.

Carsley may tackle harder, but Whelan is more mobile and a better passer.

Is there much difference between placing Long or Morrison on the bench?

For me, I don't think our fortunes change much if Morrison, Carsley, Carr, etc join the squad to sit on the bench.

I would call myself a Morrison fan, but he is a limited player and while he performed well during a spell when we were quite thin up front, we now have some younger more promising options who deserve a shot.

I think he still has a role to play if there are injuries, and I'd probably play him ahead of the likes of Stokes and possibly even Keogh/Murphy.

But my point is that how can any of us say definitively that player X is better than player Y by a clear margin?

For me a lot of our squad players or potential players have some positive attributes in combination with a number of key flaws, and there are very few players that stand out as obviously bad omissions.

Okay, Andy Reid I believe should be in the squad. On a lower profile note, I feel St. Ledger is worth a place in the squad. Foley should be in the team over McShane.

I agree with the starting XI for the most part, and McShane at right full is my only major disagreement with Trap's selection.

But once we get to the bench and beyond, we don't have many "total" players who are obviously better than the alternatives.

[Stuttgart88]

Exactly, nearly all of the players up for debate are marginal decisions.

McDonnell's article in The Indo last week ("The Bench We could Have Had") was awful. There wasn't a compelling case to be made for any of them.

[Colbert Report]

Morrison is 29. That's "over the hill" is it? :rolleyes:

Yes. Michael Owen is also 29 and over the hill.

[seanfhear]

Yes. Michael Owen is also 29 and over the hill.
Owen is nearly always on injury hill

[jay1]

All good except Dunphys friend lee carsley, if i remember correctly lee carsley gave away a lot of free kicks in very important matches, he is a good player but he gives away far to many free kicks. Put Joey O Brien on your list too.

[Razors left peg]

All good except Dunphys friend lee carsley, if i remember correctly lee carsley gave away a lot of free kicks in very important matches, he is a good player but he gives away far to many free kicks. Put Joey O Brien on your list too.

Hes not in the wilderness just injured

[Stuttgart88]

Yes, but when he's back fit then he'll be in the wilderness!

O'Brien's career in general could go either way from here.

He didn't help himself wrt Trap with his remarks but the way they were reported was scandalous. The enemy within.

[seanfhear]

Stephen Irelands hair is off living in the wilderness

And Stephen has decided to live in the international wilderness in solidarity.

[shakermaker1982]

Folan has played two times for his country. His first cap was for about two minutes so bringing up his international goal tally is ridiculous. Give the guy a chance. Did he impress against Italy? Yes he did. He keeps his place in the squad as a consequence. He's 6 ft 2" compared to Clinton's midget frame of 5 ft 10" so offers the physical presence you demand.

[irishfan86]

Ciaran, I would call myself a Clinton Morrison fan but he doesn't offer us anything different than Doyle, N. Hunt, or Shane Long.

Folan offers a different dimension to our attack, and he can do things Morrison simply can't because of his body type.

Morrison is just a poor man's Kevin Doyle when it comes down to it, but based on what he's done for us, he should definitely have made more squads, certainly in Staunton's era.

Wouldn't be against bringing him in if we're having injury problems but there's no point having him on the bench as he offers nothing different than our other options.

[Crosby87]

Would Clinton Morrison even want to come back?

[irishfan86]

Would Clinton Morrison even want to come back?

He really enjoyed playing for Ireland, and always said he was available when interviewed during Stan's reign.

When he was part of the squad, I remember him going to 'B' games or U-21 games to support potential teammates.

If he was asked, I think he'd answer the call.

[Colbert Report]

Fair play to Clinton Morrison, he always answered the call. Striker is definitely a position we're solid in. Keane and Doyle are too good to drop, barring injury they'll both start every Ireland game when available. After that, you've got Folan for the long ball, Shane Long, and Andy Keogh. I don't see us being a much better squad with Clinton involved, and I don't think Trap does either, sorry.

[magnumpi]

Exactly, nearly all of the players up for debate are marginal decisions.

McDonnell's article in The Indo last week ("The Bench We could Have Had") was awful. There wasn't a compelling case to be made for any of them.

haha, i remember reading that and thinking "what difference would that have made?"

a completely useless side column.

[tetsujin1979]

paper never refuses ink, lads

[irishfan86]

And he can't do things Clint can because of his body, his balance and ball control is woeful for example. I know Peter Crouch has shown the world that even the most skill less plank can be a "top class" player if they're huge but I'd still be very reluctant on using Folan, he's technically abysmal. Clint may be a poor man's Doyle, but calling Long, Stokes or Keogh that would be praising them too highly. :D

I'd disagree with this assessment of Folan altogether.

From what I've seen of him in the Poland match and the Italy match, he seems very good technically. He's got a good first touch, and he seems to be fairly intelligent about passing it back to the midfielders and making the right play- he's good at keeping possession, and if anything I think there are times when he could have turned towards goal and had a crack or set something up in a more direct fashion.

I am by no means saying I think he's a top-class player, but I think your assessment of him is way off, and I think if he was given the opportunity in the Premier League, that he could be a solid player at that level.

But even if you disagree with me and claim him to be poor technically, I don't think it can be argued that he provides a physical presence, and the ability to hold up the ball in the final third- which let's face it, none of our other forwards can do from an aerial ball.

Keane and Doyle can hold up the ball when it's to feet, but aerial ones are harder for them to deal with due to their smaller statures.

Doyle has a good leap on him, but lacks the physique to consistently hold up the ball when its hit to him in the air, and Keane, while a fantastic player, is average at best in the air.

[irishultra]

doyle is better than the clint(is that even his nickname? lol) but morrison is more unpredictable. i wish he was in squad despite being a mercenary

[irishfan86]

He may be a mercenary, but he's a likeable one.

As mentioned, he's the kind of guy that can brighten up a dressing room and he always gives 100%.

I really think having a guy like him in the dressing room during the Staunton era could have made a huge difference during the bad times.

I remember his performance against France in the 0-0 before he had to come off due to injury. He looked heartbroken and he had been doing so much work out there.

Nothing but good things to say about Clint really, but as I say, he just doesn't offer us anything different right now.

[joema]

Clinton Morrisson?

Same guy who took an age to decide that he wanted to play for Ireland?...

No thanks

[irishfan86]

Clinton Morrisson?

Same guy who took an age to decide that he wanted to play for Ireland?...

No thanks

He comes from a pretty diverse background- give him a break if he had a bit of an identity crisis!

Bottom line, once he put the green jersey on, he's given us his all and never turned down a call up.

What really impresses me is that he has never been critical about not being selected- he merely states that he feels he should be in the squad, and talks about the team and their fortunes pretty regularly.

Here are some quotes from an interview from February of this year:

“Obviously the Irish scouts have been coming to a few of our games and it is up to me to start banging in the goals until the end of the season because we have got more qualifiers coming up in March and June,”

“I am sure now that Keiren Westwood has been called up that Mr Trapattoni will have people at a lot of our games so I have to make sure that I am on top of my game every week now to impress them as well as my own manager.”

“I am disappointed because I have been knocking on the door for the last few years. I didn’t play for a while when Steve Staunton was manager because he didn’t pick me."

"It was a case that he said he was going for younger players, which is fair enough, but I told him that you still need some experience but he said that’s the way it was going."

“I am my biggest critic and admit when things aren’t going well, but after that I scored 10 goals and think I have been doing well and my record stands up against the other strikers in the Irish squad."

“I am not saying I should be there and starting for Ireland but I still think I should be there or thereabouts in the squad. "

On Mick McCarthy:

“I have got to give him a lot of credit because he was the one who picked me for Ireland and they were great memories and great times playing for my country, and if it wasn’t for him coming to meet me and persuading me to play for Ireland I probably wouldn’t have in the first place.”

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/coventry-city-fc/coventry-city-fc-news/2009/02/10/clinton-morrison-hoping-to-sneak-back-into-ireland-squad-92746-22893609/

[Stuttgart88]

I agree. I like him but think, as with others, the case for his inclusion is marginal. I said a couple of weeks ago that I'd have picked him ahead of Folan but Folan impressed me in Bari.

[geysir]

Squad call ups are not humanitarian gestures.
He filled a gap in the team for 4 years or so after Quinn's retirement until Doyle was sensibly preferred by Stan. But when uninjured and in decent form he was mostly good enough for the squad and even the bench.
It is a frustrating place for him to be in, good enough but not in the reckoning.

If Folan got injured then he should get a recall. But I can't imagine Trap bringing in somebody new (to him) unless Clint makes a big impact with his club.

[third policeman]

I was pleasantly surprised by Folan's impact in Bari, but its a big risk relying on someone who plays so little football. Clint is getting his game, scores a decent number of goals and has played well for us in the past. I think his exclusion from the squad is evidence of this strange prejudice that Trapp and Brady have that premuiership benchwarmers must be better that Chamionship starters.

[Emmet7]

One thing that struck me about last night (and most other people too) was the horrible bench we had. When we had Hunt playing we had literally nobody who could make any sort of impact and most our bench was composed of fringe players for their club.
How many of the experienced options below, each playing well for their club should be considered? I think each of them offer something different and worthwhile, surely worthy of a squad place. Our strength in depth in the current squad really has me worried if we get hit with a few injuries.

- Andy Reid
- Lee Carsley
- Rory Delap
- Clinton Morrison
- Daryl Murphy
- Stephen Carr

Replace what we had on the bench last night with those guys and I think we'd have serious options to change a game. Right now we're too predictable.

We need midfielders who are both good going forward and good defensively, like Roy Keane.

Andy Reid, is ok going forward, but is he good defensively too? Is he an all-rounder?

Lee Carsley, a good trier but he's hardly world class.

Delap, good for a throw in, but what good is that if we are 3-0 down because of a poor defence or midfield. Possibly an option if we were a goal down and put him and Folan on together.

Stephen Carr...not international class at this stage...too old...

Daryll Murphy, don't think he is world class.

[Weatherman]

Jason Byrne

The man is on form at the minute!!!

[Fizzer]

I was pleasantly surprised by Folan's impact in Bari, but its a big risk relying on someone who plays so little football. Clint is getting his game, scores a decent number of goals and has played well for us in the past. I think his exclusion from the squad is evidence of this strange prejudice that Trapp and Brady have that premuiership benchwarmers must be better that Chamionship starters.

I would have thought the opposite was the case, e.g. premiership starters like Reid and Delap being ignored in favour of championship also-rans like Miller and Keogh. Agree with you on Folans' contribution, he was great. Clints' never let us down though

[Stuttgart88]

Its favourtism towards previous squad members if anything. Folan, Keogh, Bruce etc may have just about been reasonable picks at the start of Traps tenure when Clint was settling into a new club, Delap was just back from injury etc but he doesn't really update his team roster at all. It's taken him this long to get Foley on board and he still hasn't given Lawerence a shot.Agreed, but hasn't Foley been in the last few squads?

[tetsujin1979]

he still hasn't given Lawerence a shot.
Lawrence was in the B squad for the game VS Nottingham Forest, but had to pull out with injury. Andrews and Folan were both given a chance in that game, and took it well IMO

[TerryPhelan]

Lee Carsley, a good trier but he's hardly world class.

...

Daryll Murphy, don't think he is world class.

This has cropped up before and I wanted to throw it out there. What is it that people mean when they talk about a player being 'world class'? Does it refer to being able to survive at international level (in which case we might prefer the term 'international class')? Or does it refer to what I would take to be the more accurate interpretation of the term, that the player has qualities which make him well above average in his given position compared to other internationals?

If it's the former, I think our whole squad (with the exception, perhaps, of McShane and Miller who often look off the pace) would fit the bill of being world class.

If the latter, then I would say Given, Finnan, Dunne, JOS, S Reid, Duff, Keane and Doyle would tick the box. But none of the others really.

(And one might also take 'world class' to mean being among the best in the world in one's position. In which case only Given is really in with a shout of meriting the accolade.)

Just a thought anyway.

[NeilMcD]

There is no bias shown by Trappatoni to Premiership over Championship. The only thing they go on is his own idea of what it takes to have a good balanced sqaud. That is not to say I agree with every decision but there is no bias to it only his opinion on players. Simple as that. No ulterior motives

[Irish_Praha]

This has cropped up before and I wanted to throw it out there. What is it that people mean when they talk about a player being 'world class'? Does it refer to being able to survive at international level (in which case we might prefer the term 'international class')? Or does it refer to what I would take to be the more accurate interpretation of the term, that the player has qualities which make him well above average in his given position compared to other internationals?

If it's the former, I think our whole squad (with the exception, perhaps, of McShane and Miller who often look off the pace) would fit the bill of being world class.

If the latter, then I would say Given, Finnan, Dunne, JOS, S Reid, Duff, Keane and Doyle would tick the box. But none of the others really.

(And one might also take 'world class' to mean being among the best in the world in one's position. In which case only Given is really in with a shout of meriting the accolade.)

Just a thought anyway.

For me world class means a player that would be included in a squad of the best players in the world. As this is very subjective I would say a world-class player is a player that would be considered to be one of the top 5 (or at a stretch 10) players in the world in his position.

I agree Given would be our only world-class player under these conditions.

[Stuttgart88]

Good call Terry.

World Class is neither here nor there in conext of Ireland selection. Whether a player is the best we have in a certain position should determine whether he is in the team, the "horse for course" or team balance issue notwithstanding. Whether he is in the top 2 or 3 in that position should determine whether he is in the squad, this time versatality maybe notwithstanding.

[geysir]

Schillaci played under Trap when he was at Juve, he was interviewed before the game against Italy and gave his thoughts on Trap.

"He is from the old school," opined Schillaci of Ireland's boss, "He is a coach 'al antique', from a traditional sense and in that school if you don't follow the plan, you will easily be thrown out of the team.

"But he's used to training with great players who follow his will so if you don't do that, what do you expect? He's a very good coach and he knows what he is talking about."

Unaware of the current Andy Reid situation, Schillaci continued to say: "Naturally, if you continue to ignore what he's asked you to do, you're going to be put out of the team whether you're Baggio or Schillaci or whoever you are."

[joema]

He comes from a pretty diverse background- give him a break if he had a bit of an identity crisis!

Bottom line, once he put the green jersey on, he's given us his all and never turned down a call up.

What really impresses me is that he has never been critical about not being selected- he merely states that he feels he should be in the squad, and talks about the team and their fortunes pretty regularly.

Here are some quotes from an interview from February of this year:

“Obviously the Irish scouts have been coming to a few of our games and it is up to me to start banging in the goals until the end of the season because we have got more qualifiers coming up in March and June,”

“I am sure now that Keiren Westwood has been called up that Mr Trapattoni will have people at a lot of our games so I have to make sure that I am on top of my game every week now to impress them as well as my own manager.”

“I am disappointed because I have been knocking on the door for the last few years. I didn’t play for a while when Steve Staunton was manager because he didn’t pick me."

"It was a case that he said he was going for younger players, which is fair enough, but I told him that you still need some experience but he said that’s the way it was going."

“I am my biggest critic and admit when things aren’t going well, but after that I scored 10 goals and think I have been doing well and my record stands up against the other strikers in the Irish squad."

“I am not saying I should be there and starting for Ireland but I still think I should be there or thereabouts in the squad. "

On Mick McCarthy:

“I have got to give him a lot of credit because he was the one who picked me for Ireland and they were great memories and great times playing for my country, and if it wasn’t for him coming to meet me and persuading me to play for Ireland I probably wouldn’t have in the first place.”

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/coventry-city-fc/coventry-city-fc-news/2009/02/10/clinton-morrison-hoping-to-sneak-back-into-ireland-squad-92746-22893609/

He took his time when deciding what country he wanted to represent. IMO he only just Ireland as he realised he was not going to get capped by England.

Yes, he has given his all when he has put on the green, and he is genuinely disappointed at being overlooked in the last few years. This however, is not due to any Irish pride but rather due to the fact that he wants to get the most out of his career....

Simple as that, to believe otherwise is just naive.