Irish public popularity shift away from soccer?

[Serb]

Interesting post Ciaran. The four games we have played so far are far from glamourous however, the fair weather fans just wouldn't be that interested in Cyprus, Georgia or Montenegro.

I think the two games coming up on Saturday and in particular Wednesday next will be more telling if there has been a shift away from football. Ireland -vs- Italy won't get the same figures as the Grand Slam game against Wales, but I'd say it'll fair somewhere between Bernard Dunne's fight and the Football final.

[gustavo]

I really think we need to qualify this campaign or the game in this country is in serious trouble.

Us qualifiying or not for S.A won't make a jot of difference to the game in this country

[kellco88]

Also its imortant to point out that the Six nations was only available on RTE and BBC where as the Champions league final and internationals are available on sky sports so you would have a lot more viewers tuning into sky sports via pubs etc

[elroy]

Looking through some RTE viewership figures I was really surprised to see the Soccer matches doing so poorly, not just against Rugby but against all sports in general. Especially since we're doing so well this campaign.

[/url]

Both the Ireland Georgia game and the Ireland England game peaked at approx 1.1m viewers which in my opinion throws football in a great light. From a rugby perspective you dont get much bigger a game than England at home. Although the Georgia game was a big game for a genuine Irish supporter would not have attracted the same level of attention for the "casual" viewer.


Rugby is king at the moment because it is successful, like all sports in Ireland success will breed interest etc etc. however, in my opinion and i think a few journalists have written articles to this extent in the last few days, the level of interest/hysteria on a nationwide basis that the successes of the Irish football team generates is much greater than that the Irish rugby team can. Although rugby is reaching areas of society it never did in the past, it is not as far reaching or widespread as football. For example compare Ireland in the WC (Football) versus Ireland in the WC (rugby), no comparison, the country comes to a standstill during the football WC games.

I guarantee that the ratings for the Ireland Bulgaria and Italy games will closely match if not exceed the rugby.

[Stuttgart88]

I thought I read on foot.ie recently that Ireland vs Georgia attracted as many watchers on TV as Ireland vs England in the rugby (or was it France?). {edit - thanks Elroy!}

Interesting post by the way, but I'd qualify the events you listed as follows:

Grand Slam & title decider. The defining moment of a golden generation of rugby players.
The 2 biggest games in the GAA calendar.
A world title fight.
An early round football qualifier against a team we played recently anyway (so no novelty value) in one of the worst games ever seen in Dublin

I know it's a subjective comment but I've no doubt that soccer can regain its top dog status but only once we start threatening to qualify again. I'd have no doubt that Ireland vs Italy or Montenegro would attract massive numbers at the end of this campaign if there was something still to play for. If we qualify for a WC again it'd be massive. I'm not sure it'd have direct spillover into the LOI but it'd certainly improve football's standing in the psyche of the country no end.

I'd like to know what the Ireland vs Canada viewing number was.

Also, RTE's Premiership has competition from BBC and SKY, each of whom have a series of highlights packages. There's also SKY+ and all that - is that captured?

Separately, my rugger mates often cite increased player numbers at underage level and I've no doubt this is true. But is this at the expense of football? My own family experience is that my brother's kids play rugby, football and GAA (not to mention tennis & other games). I think there's a generally good participation culture in all games and they're not mutually exclusive.

[smasher]

Could be worrying for the game. But we must remember that more people play soccer than any other sport in this country. Also, there are many more channels for viewers to tune into for the same match.
But , good point nonetheless and it should keep us all on our toes. So, anybody not involved at local level should rethink their stance and promote the garrison game!!!
If we qualify, momentum will gather and recent rugby success will pale in comparison.

[Razors left peg]

The success in the rugby has been great and I went as mental as most people celebrating it at the weekend. But as good as the atmostphere was around all the pubs for it , its still doesnt even get close to how mental the country goes when we are in a world cup.The reaction to O Gara drop goal at the weekend as good as it was still doesnt even get close to the absolute pandimonium after Houghtons goals against England or Italy, or even Robbies goal against Germany.
There are so many band wagon jumpers in the country that behave like they are all die hards when it comes to the big occasion in soccer.

[Stuttgart88]

I think an important point is that our footballers used to always have a connection with the supporters but during the boom years this connection broke. The players earned money beyond their dreams and their attitude began to stink. I think the penny has dropped to a certain extent and bar the likes of Stephen Manchester I think the mutual bond is returning. Hard work & humility are important, but ultimately it's results.

[Stuttgart88]

Funnily enough, whilst the battering BO'D took against England was heroic and was compelling viewing, I'd say it turned many mothers off the prospect of seeing their kids getting involved in the same game.

[gustavo]

I think it would, between Stan, Stephen Ireland and 5-2 in Cyprus theres been a lot of negativity associated with our team in recent years among the general public. Qualifying for the World Cup would certainly reverse that.
You're presuming that faith in the national team equates to the state of football in this country though

[paul_oshea]

I think it would, between Stan, Stephen Ireland and 5-2 in Cyprus theres been a lot of negativity associated with our team in recent years among the general public. Qualifying for the World Cup would certainly reverse that.

thats not what gustavo is getting at ;)

[ifk101]

Let's not go OTT on this. :D

If you generate enough media print/ hype / word of mouth etc etc, you'll get a high demand for tickets and high television viewing numbers. The vast majority of Irish sporting public can easily be manipulated and directed.

[paul_oshea]

btw ciaran good post, common sense ringing through, no often we see that :D

But I have to say I have been feeling this coming for a while to be honest. Rugby is growing and soccer is waining. Whatever ppl say about biggest registered membership and stuff, playing fair enough, thats probably the case but actual interest outside of that is deteriorating, remember its a lot easier set up a soccer club than say a GAA club or rugby, even just in terms of numbers.

[paul_oshea]

I thought I read on foot.ie recently that Ireland vs Georgia attracted as many watchers on TV as Ireland vs England in the rugby (or was it France?). {edit - thanks Elroy!}

Interesting post by the way, but I'd qualify the events you listed as follows:

Grand Slam & title decider. The defining moment of a golden generation of rugby players.
The 2 biggest games in the GAA calendar.
A world title fight.
An early round football qualifier against a team we played recently anyway (so no novelty value) in one of the worst games ever seen in Dublin

I know it's a subjective comment but I've no doubt that soccer can regain its top dog status but only once we start threatening to qualify again. I'd have no doubt that Ireland vs Italy or Montenegro would attract massive numbers at the end of this campaign if there was something still to play for. If we qualify for a WC again it'd be massive. I'm not sure it'd have direct spillover into the LOI but it'd certainly improve football's standing in the psyche of the country no end.

I'd like to know what the Ireland vs Canada viewing number was.

Also, RTE's Premiership has competition from BBC and SKY, each of whom have a series of highlights packages. There's also SKY+ and all that - is that captured?

Separately, my rugger mates often cite increased player numbers at underage level and I've no doubt this is true. But is this at the expense of football? My own family experience is that my brother's kids play rugby, football and GAA (not to mention tennis & other games). I think there's a generally good participation culture in all games and they're not mutually exclusive.


Thats true stutts, but when a certain age is reached(around 12 - 14) THEY focus on one or the other, the hope by that stage from a soccer point of view is that if they are going to be good enough then they have focused solely on soccer.....

[Stuttgart88]

But I have to say I have been feeling this coming for a while to be honest. Rugby is growing and soccer is waining. Crikey, Sherlock Holmes is in our midst :)

Has it nothing to do with relative success?

I'd agree that rugby probably has more capacity to grow, a lower base and all that.

What about the Georgia game and England game attracting same viewing numbers?

Do you think that there won't be bigger hysteria if we qualify for the WC?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Not buying the theory behind this thread at all to be honest.

Frankly it's the kind of oversensetivity that the GAA has indulged in since back in the fog "...If others succeed, we automatically fail".

Im delighted for the rugby lads. I truly am and that's despite the fact that not alone would I have swapped any number of Grand Slams for qualification for the WC -I'd have swapped it for 4 points from our next two games.

[Boh_So_Good]

The thing is you cannot trust the Irish mentality when it comes to this stuff. This is a nation of instinctual bandwagon jumpers. If Ireland won a gold medal in figure skating we would be a "a figure skating mad nation" with a "popularity shift towards the Winter Olympics over Rugby." There is no loyalty in this land except to the man on da telly.

The problem with the Ireland soccer team is many fold. They do not look right or at home in Croker, the Britishness of the Ireland soccer set-up has only been reinforced with Traps arrival as it moved the team culturally away from being 'mainly a British thing with some Irishness' to being 'a British thing with some Italianness and no Irishness'. The 40 year chicken has come home to roost.

The whole Stephen Ireland saga was a disaster. In any other country he would of been told to "get lost and be banned from playing for Ireland ever again" - but because we forgave Roy Keane, we have this notion now that if a player considers playing for his British club over the National Team then this is understandable.

It makes them more "Irish" in some weird way. So we must molly coddle and indulge these millionaires rather than looking for players who will actually want to play for Ireland. I think the whole post-Saipan "Keano" brigade have seriously and fatally damaged the Irish team and it is taking it time to destory us, but it is happening. A mandate was set there which said "playing for Ireland is not an houour, British soccer coropations come first" - that was the begining of the cancer.

Since then, the naitonal team has just become less relevant to Irish society. Playing soccer for Ireland in a WC qualifier is something you might do if you can't get in the Gilliangham first team, rather than a great honour. Likewise the supporters have subconciously gone the same route. Compare that mentality to the Irish rugby squad.

If the national team qualifies for the WC cup then the current Rugby mad Irish public will be the soccer mad Irish public again.

We are a nation of teenboppers when it comes to sporting loyalties.

[paul_oshea]

Crikey, Sherlock Holmes is in our midst :)

Has it nothing to do with relative success?

I'd agree that rugby probably has more capacity to grow, a lower base and all that.

What about the Georgia game and England game attracting same viewing numbers?

Do you think that there won't be bigger hysteria if we qualify for the WC?

I don't know, I always judge thinks like this from seeing other peoples reactions, and talking to them, granted most of my friends from home-home would have been soccer through and through, the interest in the local team has always been small(even though they have reached a connaught semi-final this year and junior league last 16/quarters 2 years ago) the club hasn't got any new non-members on board or people attending games. People are talking a lot more about rugby at home and a lot more have joined the "local club" which is about 20 miles or so away from the town. GAA has steadily stayed the same. Soccer at home is still basically the same few die-hards no matter how well the team has done(and given the support they receive they are probably one of the best teams in the country relative to this). Over here and in Dublin would be more GAA lads or rugger heads, but also would have had an interest in soccer(a lot of them play saturday league over here), but they just dont care as much for soccer as they used to. Even the plastics i speak to say years ago in the pubs there was a lot more interest in ireland soccer than there is now, and that shift has gone towards rugby over the last few years. Its obviouslly down to a few factors but one major one being success. Success in soccer seems to breed contempt to one extent, not the same in rugby.

If you think of what Pope said and how it has grown in the 15 years he has been in this country, and yet we still only have 120 or so professional players, then you just have to wonder how big it can become, and soccer will definitely flounder if this is the case. Even from a practical viewpoint, big awkward (rugby or even gaa)lads running round playing soccer are never going to reach the pinnacle are they?!

I honestly think that the next world cup will not be anywhere near as big as 90s, or even close to WC2002. I honestly dont think the interest is there as much as it used to be, whatever about the success of rugby. IF the world cup were in Europe and we qualified I reckon the reaction would be far greater, thats the real pity I feel.

[Stuttgart88]

I'd have swapped it for 4 points from our next two games.That's exactly what I said on Saturday night, fully decked out in my old Irish rugby shirt and downing pints and shots like my life depended on it. I love the rugby - probably more than a very large % of those that claim to be rugby fans first and foremost -but for me nothing beats the football.

A few years ago, on holidays, I was downbeat but far from gutted when France pipped us to the Championship on points difference. My mood then jumped when I got texts saying we were beating Pakistan at the cricket.

I was inconsolable, totally sick after the 2 Israel games, particularly the first one. I just wanted to scream & then hibernate until the next game. Instead I had to go to dinner with the missus :)

[back of the net]

The success in the rugby has been great and I went as mental as most people celebrating it at the weekend. But as good as the atmostphere was around all the pubs for it , its still doesnt even get close to how mental the country goes when we are in a world cup.The reaction to O Gara drop goal at the weekend as good as it was still doesnt even get close to the absolute pandimonium after Houghtons goals against England or Italy, or even Robbies goal against Germany.
There are so many band wagon jumpers in the country that behave like they are all die hards when it comes to the big occasion in soccer.

BINGO Razor - u took the words rite out of my mouth

agree completely

however i believe the band wagon jumpers pretending to be die hards not only applies to soccer

was delighted for the rugby team on sat and watched a great game but i aint a hardcore rugby fan nor ever was i and i aint gonna pretend to be now, unlike alot of the so called "rugby supporters" around the country on saturday

[Stuttgart88]

I honestly think that the next world cup will not be anywhere near as big as 90s, or even close to WC2002. I honestly dont think the interest is there as much as it used to be, whatever about the success of rugby. IF the world cup were in Europe and we qualified I reckon the reaction would be far greater, thats the real pity I feel.You could be right to the extent that the football has set its own bar with 3 WC qualifications, the rugby team until now had yet to achieve those heights and still has a WC to look forward to as we've never done anything beyond average at a rugby WC.

[gspain]

Looking through some RTE viewership figures I was really surprised to see the Soccer matches doing so poorly, not just against Rugby but against all sports in general. Especially since we're doing so well this campaign.

Average figures for some sporting events are:

Ireland v Wales (Rugby) - 952,000
All Ireland Hurling Final - 709,000
All Ireland Football Final - 707,00
Bernard Dunne's Fight - 585,000
Ireland v Cyprus - 517,000

You might argue that the four ranked above the qualifier were all far more significant matches in their sport than the qualifier but what was really telling for me was moving away from Ireland games and comparing a big Six Nations game with a big Champions League game.

France v Wales (Six Nations) - 536,000
Man Utd v Inter Milan (Champions League) - 497,000

I read before that the Premiership highlights show prior to christmas was getting stuffed ratings wise by the Heineken Cup highlights show too, nice to see the sporting shift move away from foreign teams and on to our own. Just hope our national teams public interest decline halts soon, I really think we need to qualify this campaign or the game in this country is in serious trouble.

Sources:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0323/ireland.html
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2009/0110/rtetelevision.html
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0302/ireland1.html
http://www.rte.ie/about/pressreleases/2008/1016/irelandvcyprus16102008.html

You are not using consistent figures.

You chose the constant (watched the whole game non stop) viewing figure for Cyprus football at 517,000 yet the average figure for the others. Read your sources again. You can't compare both.

A football match has been the biggest sporting event on RTE for at least 17 of the past 20 years.

For a like with like comparison I prefer

http://www.medialive2.com/television/monthly-review/2008---september.html

They do just use adults of 15+ but at least it is a consistent measurement.

Now the biggest sporting event according to this was Munster v NZ with Ireland v Cyprus coming 2nd.

They don't have figures up yet for 2009.

The Cyprus figures were better than both All Irelands but ecclipsed by the rugby.

furthermore the football was live on Sky Sports also and watched by many. Anecdotally football would also has a much higher pub viewership numbers.

[Wolfie]

........as good as the atmostphere was around all the pubs for it , its still doesnt even get close to how mental the country goes when we are in a world cup.The reaction to O Gara drop goal at the weekend as good as it was still doesnt even get close to the absolute pandimonium after Houghtons goals against England or Italy, or even Robbies goal against Germany.
There are so many band wagon jumpers in the country that behave like they are all die hards when it comes to the big occasion in soccer.

First of all, lets make the assumption that most of us posting here would be "Soccer" fans first and foremost - our devotion to the cause is unwavering win, lose or draw.

Lets re-iterate that the thread title is discussing the wider Irish publics support.

Taking that into account, its fair to say that the "Soccer" World Cups truly caught the general publics imagination to a far greater degree than any other sporting events.

This was partly due to us appearing at a genuinely World celebrated event - not effectively a tournament comprising of Ireland, Britain, France and current minnows Italy.

I think you'll find the public interest will rise if the team can continue to gather points towards qualification.

[drummerboy]

What about the people who watch the Ireland games on Sky? Are they included in that list above.

[elroy]

From a participation point of view, the reality is that the schools network is rugbys bedrock in Ireland and considering that most if not all of those are private pay schools a very large portion of the country is excluded. I know there are exceptions to this, ie certain areas of cork, limerick city etc are very strong rugby strongholds, but it is only in recent years that we have seen players emerge from less 'privileged' backgrounds.

Football on the other hand is a working class game, open to all. This is another reason why i dont think the success of rugby will be a significant difference from a financial sponsorship point of view. Rugby has a middle to upper class following that provide substantial financial backing no matter how well/poorly the Irish team is performing.

[gspain]

What about the people who watch the Ireland games on Sky? Are they included in that list above.

They are not.

See my post above too as he has taken constant figures for football and average figures for GAA and peak figures for other sports. Lies damned lies and statistics.

[Stuttgart88]

I presume the rugby is on both BBC & RTE though, so do RTE's rugby figures only tell half the story?

By the way, how are viewing figures actually compiled anyway?

[endabob1]

A very good thread.
A few things
The notion of bandwagon jumper is far from unique to Irish Sport. Success breeds media interest which lures in first the casual fan and then the sheep. I watched the last RWC in a pub in Oxford, it was the 3rd one we tried to get into, it was jammed I had to explain rule after rule to England "fans" around me particularly the "On the line is out" one!!

Second point is the growth of rugby has been going for a decade or so and this will obviously add to it, it has started to move away from the traditional private schools and more into the mainstream. I grew up i na GAA town, but I played more soccer than GAA, our local schools (1 convent, 1 Vocational) were GAA only but they merged and in the last decade have beome almost exclusively Rugby playing. Not only that but there is now a local club and they have an underage scheme which involves kids from Under 8 upwards.

Lastly, I think a lot of Rugby's growth is to do with the success of Munster & to a lesser degree Leinster, the 4 professional provinces play to a high standard in competitve leagues and between 3 of the 4 contain over 95% of our international teams. Despite the improvement in the LOI there is no way yo ucan say the league is attractive as say Munster v Leicester at Thomnd Park or Leinster v Toulose at the RDS. The opportunity for fans to watch what is widely perceived as the Chamipons League equivalent on their own doorstep has generated interest in Rugby unheard of 10+ years ago.

[pete]

RTE 2 Base: Adults - Top 20 Network 2 TV figures for 2008
Rank Title Date Time TVR 000's
1 Rugby: Munster v All Blacks Nov 18 1900 18.1 624
3 World Cup 2010 Qualifiers - Soccer Oct 15 1900 13.3 459
4 Six Nations 2008 - Rugby Ave: 3 1652 12.9 427
5 The Sunday Game Live Ave: 5 1524 12.6 434
6 World Cup 2010 Qualifiers - Soccer Sep 10 1731 12.2 422
7 World Cup 2010 Qualifiers - Soccer Sep 06 1630 10.9 377
9 Autumn International Rugby Ave: 3 1709 9.9 342
11 International Soccer Friendly May 29 1933 8.9 307
12 The Sunday Game Live Ave: 5 1230 8.7 300
14 Euro 2008 Finals - Soccer Ave: 19 1859 8.3 287
15 Champions League Live - Soccer Ave: 25 1900 8.1 274
17 Six Nations 2008 - Rugby Ave: 4 1458 7.9 262
18 Six Nations 2008 - Rugby Ave: 6 1227 7.5 249


While I don't doubt that football audience figures on the way down I think it is not as great as mentioned above. People like to see winners & Munster & Ireland are now winning big games. Champions League doesn't get big figures until later stages.

Ireland v Italy next Wednesday will get very large figures - watch this space.

[Fizzer]

The thing is you cannot trust the Irish mentality when it comes to this stuff. This is a nation of instinctual bandwagon jumpers. If Ireland won a gold medal in figure skating we would be a "a figure skating mad nation" with a "popularity shift towards the Winter Olympics over Rugby." There is no loyalty in this land except to the man on da telly.

The problem with the Ireland soccer team is many fold. They do not look right or at home in Croker, the Britishness of the Ireland soccer set-up has only been reinforced with Traps arrival as it moved the team culturally away from being 'mainly a British thing with some Irishness' to being 'a British thing with some Italianness and no Irishness'. The 40 year chicken has come home to roost.

The whole Stephen Ireland saga was a disaster. In any other country he would of been told to "get lost and be banned from playing for Ireland ever again" - but because we forgave Roy Keane, we have this notion now that if a player considers playing for his British club over the National Team then this is understandable.

It makes them more "Irish" in some weird way. So we must molly coddle and indulge these millionaires rather than looking for players who will actually want to play for Ireland. I think the whole post-Saipan "Keano" brigade have seriously and fatally damaged the Irish team and it is taking it time to destory us, but it is happening. A mandate was set there which said "playing for Ireland is not an houour, British soccer coropations come first" - that was the begining of the cancer.

Since then, the naitonal team has just become less relevant to Irish society. Playing soccer for Ireland in a WC qualifier is something you might do if you can't get in the Gilliangham first team, rather than a great honour. Likewise the supporters have subconciously gone the same route. Compare that mentality to the Irish rugby squad.

If the national team qualifies for the WC cup then the current Rugby mad Irish public will be the soccer mad Irish public again.

We are a nation of teenboppers when it comes to sporting loyalties.

Good post. I agree with almost all you say, especially the point that the Saipan saga may have been the beginning of a shift away from one crucial characteristic which marked us apart from the rest of the world i.e. the teams' relationship with the fans and the loyalty/sense of honour which came from that.
Interesting point on Croke Park too, it just hasn't felt right up to now. Hopefully Saturday might change this, the late kick-off might be an important factor with people probably fairly jarred going to the game, might improve the atmosphere. (cant remember when was the last competitive game at home that started so late on a Saturday) Also the feelgood factor after the Slam/Dunne fight I hope will carry over.

Don't agree with you saying any other country would tell S. Ireland to get lost and ban him from playing again. Scholes turned his back on England a bit early and they asked him back. The Dutch are constantly throwing players out of squads only for them to re-appear once the manager gets the bullet. Michael Laudrup missed out on Denmark winning the euros in 92 because of a row as well. He came back to set a record for international caps and went on to manage at national level I think. Having said that, just because other international teams tolerate this sort of behaviour, doesn't mean that we should. If I was Delaney, I would ban Ireland for good and clarify the issue once and for all.

[drummerboy]

A very good thread.

The opportunity for fans to watch what is widely perceived as the Chamipons League equivalent on their own doorstep has generated interest in Rugby unheard of 10+ years ago.

This is a very relevant point. I'm not putting down the efforts of the LOI clubs but punters nowadays only want to see the very best whether its a sporting occasion or a concert or any entertainment.

Rugby is making inroads into traditional football and GAA areas. I know one very accomplished kid (both football and GAA) who was offered a rugby scholarship to a fee paying school, despite never playing organised Rugby in his life.

[elroy]

This is a very relevant point. I'm not putting down the efforts of the LOI clubs but punters nowadays only want to see the very best whether its a sporting occasion or a concert or any entertainment.

Rugby is making inroads into traditional football and GAA areas. I know one very accomplished kid (both football and GAA) who was offered a rugby scholarship to a fee paying school, despite never playing organised Rugby in his life.

Im probably going to open a minefield but does anyone feel that the rugby example is one that football should look towards.
In reality considering the size of this country, it is very hard to maintain a high standard professional league in any sport, but particulary in football with the number of clubs and the foreign competition.

I know there are Uefa rules etc etc but in time the possibility of a celtic league of ROI/NI/Welsh/Scottish teams in 2/3 leagues. I firmly believe it would be a more sustainable model. Yes it would result in a reduction in the top level Irish clubs (akin to rugby) but going with the bandwagon theory say an Irish team does well in this celtic league qualifies for the CL and with the more finanicial clout they would possess as a result of the new league, they would undoubtedly be a stronger team and thus have a greater chance of progress to the CL proper. Success breeds success and with that interest.

[The Fly]

A very good thread.
A few things
The notion of bandwagon jumper is far from unique to Irish Sport. Success breeds media interest which lures in first the casual fan and then the sheep. I watched the last RWC in a pub in Oxford, it was the 3rd one we tried to get into, it was jammed I had to explain rule after rule to England "fans" around me particularly the "On the line is out" one!!

Second point is the growth of rugby has been going for a decade or so and this will obviously add to it, it has started to move away from the traditional private schools and more into the mainstream. I grew up i na GAA town, but I played more soccer than GAA, our local schools (1 convent, 1 Vocational) were GAA only but they merged and in the last decade have beome almost exclusively Rugby playing. Not only that but there is now a local club and they have an underage scheme which involves kids from Under 8 upwards.

Lastly, I think a lot of Rugby's growth is to do with the success of Munster & to a lesser degree Leinster, the 4 professional provinces play to a high standard in competitve leagues and between 3 of the 4 contain over 95% of our international teams. Despite the improvement in the LOI there is no way yo ucan say the league is attractive as say Munster v Leicester at Thomnd Park or Leinster v Toulose at the RDS. The opportunity for fans to watch what is widely perceived as the Chamipons League equivalent on their own doorstep has generated interest in Rugby unheard of 10+ years ago.


I agree with the sentiments expressed in the last paragraph of the above post. In my opinion, it is the professionalism and success of the Provinces that are key to rugby's sustained and continued growth in this country. They are more crucial to this whole equation, more so than the national team. I have to say that I welcome rugby's growth wholeheartedly and am glad that Ireland can attain and hopefully sustain a stature in a sport which has an albeit limited, in comparison to football, but definate international standing. I live in NI and it has certainly grown here, but I will put forward a certain caveat and say that I feel that rugby's growth in prominence will be more at the expense of the GAA than football. Significantly - this has already been remarked upon here.

Rugby as an entity is definately developing a place in the national psyche. This is very important. Through successive 6 nations campaigns, Munster's European Cup campaigns, their stunning match against the All-Blacks, having players like O'Driscoll and O'Connell - players at the pinnacle of their sport, have all contributed to this. For me, it's place in the nation's affections has become secure and will not significantly diminish.

Football, as Ciaran has already said, will always have great significance because it is the simpliest game. That is it's beauty. It's place is also secure. The Euro '88, Italia '90 and USA '94 campaigns have a place in our nation's collective memory and consciousness that no other sport will ever equal. They can and will return, because the World Cup provides a platform that no other entity can equal. It's stature and place in the world is unmatched - even by the Olympics. I believe that another golden era is coming for the national side, where once again football will take precedence in the nation's affections. It's just a pity that that the domestic league set-up can never consistently sustain this.

While comments about the standing and example shown by our rugby players, relative to that of our football players, are all very pertinent in this discussion, I for one have taken great heart and pride in the example shown by Aiden McGeady and James McCarthy. Both players elected to represent the nation of their heritage and heart over that of their birth, and both have subjected to disgusting and sustained sectarian abuse in Scotland because of it. Both have displayed, for people so young, considerable courage and fortitude. I applaud them! I would encourage Stephen Ireland to take note of their example.

Anyway.....................whatever about rugby's and football's standing in the nation, I believe that their growth, as I wrote earlier, has been more at the expense of the GAA than of each other and in my view, this will continue to be the case (...........and sure that's not a bad thing ;)).

[Boh_So_Good]

This is a very relevant point. I'm not putting down the efforts of the LOI clubs but punters nowadays only want to see the very best

Fair enough, then explain the popularity of Gaelic Football which is about about top quality and glamourous as bog snorkling.

Hurling is class yes, but look how that is dying on its feet as the GAA has put 90% of their efforts into promoting gaelic over the far superior and quality sport of hurling. That tells you all you need to know.

Also most RTE staff and management are products of Leinster Rugby schools and they are looking after their own and always have even before the proviences. For decades they would have cameras at AIB league games with a handful of barristers standing under a couple of umbrellas while a Rovers-Bohs cup match over in Dalymount with 5,000 supporters got a mentioned after they read out the result of the Queen of the South versus Montrose match.

The Irish go with what the telly man and hack tells them. If enough RTE pundits, non-sports commentors, parish priests, headmasters and TDs waxed lyrically about LOI they way they do about gaelic football LOI grounds would be packed every weekend.

[Boh_So_Good]

That's another gripe I have. At least the IRFU and the FAI do something for Ireland on the world stage. The LOI has even done far more to fly the Irish flag (and with increasing distinction in recent years) and gets no thanks.

Meanwhile all kinds of pundits mouth off about how wonderful an organisation the GAA even while some of them are dangling out of trees in Waterford with their pockets stuffed with 500 Euro notes or being dragged into the courthouse on bookkeeping iregularities. The FAI no matter what are always called "idiots" by the same pundits.

This is why I have always beleive that the GAA should get the least funding as not only is it a limited idiosyncratic oddity at best on the international stage, but the aparthide nature of the GAA in relation into waging propganda wars on "other codes" among vast swathes of this nation's youth robs our country of all kinds of athletes who could be competing on the world stage in any number of sports rather than hoofing around in the muck in rural Donegal during some pointless grudge match between to parishes.

Frankly it is a miracle we can compete in any sport considering the death hold the GAA has on young people all over this country trying to stifle their potential to represent their country in any other sports. This to me explains why we are so terrible at Olymipics - our medal winners are mucking about in the "passionate" encounter between Saint Ballyspittles Pipers versus Fr Flannagan Novena Kickhams in some godforsaken field somewhere.

Anyways I am getting off topic. Bandwagon jumping and unfair media coverage/government funding is what still detemines the fate of sporting "codes" in this republic.

[drummerboy]

Fair enough, then explain the popularity of Gaelic Football which is about about top quality and glamourous as bog snorkling.

Hurling is class yes, but look how that is dying on its feet as the GAA has put 90% of their efforts into promoting gaelic over the far superior and quality sport of hurling. That tells you all you need to know.

Also most RTE staff and management are products of Leinster Rugby schools and they are looking after their own and always have even before the proviences. For decades they would have cameras at AIB league games with a handful of barristers standing under a couple of umbrellas while a Rovers-Bohs cup match over in Dalymount with 5,000 supporters got a mentioned after they read out the result of the Queen of the South versus Montrose match.

The Irish go with what the telly man and hack tells them. If enough RTE pundits, non-sports commentors, parish priests, headmasters and TDs waxed lyrically about LOI they way they do about gaelic football LOI grounds would be packed every weekend.

They want to see a big occasion. Thats why every summer 82,000 go to see the Dubs play someone like Louth. I'm a football person, have coached, managed and played at a decent level. But when it comes to colour, athmosphere and hype, the Dubs and Heineken Cup games and to a lesser extent Magners League leave the LOI well in its wake. Sad but true.

The only way we are going to match that is if there is a Celtic League with 2 or possibly 3 Irish teams competing in it. Otherwise we will have to content ourselves with the LOI and watch hundreds of Irish people travelling to Britain to get their fix of association football.

[Boh_So_Good]

To the public theres nothing but shame and disappointment associated with the LOI. Powerhouse clubs one year are relegated, in financial difficulty or even non-existent a few months later. Players who push themselves to the very top of the league and superstar status among their clubs are rewarded with a plane ticket out of the country to play in the reserves for a 2nd tier foreign club.

The LOI is where it deserves to be based on the poor organisation of the people at the top. The FAI don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the IRFU or GAA.

To a limited point you are correct.

However the same people never apply the same standards to things such as the rampant sickening sectarianism of the Celtic support in this country which is considered almost "adorable" to the many financial issues in the Premiership.

If more Irish people went to LOI games, there would be increased financial stability due to a decent cash flow into our internal national enconomy rather than handing it to Murdoch and Co.

There is nothing wrong with the LOI that isn't happening in other sports and leagues, the issue is the big magnifying glass of the media loves to point it at the LOI constantly.

If the books were opened on the GAA, I beleive we would find levels of corruption and political imcomptence which would make the LOI look like a quakers tea party. When the taxpayer bails you out everytime, it is easy to be perfect.

[gustavo]

The LOI is where it deserves to be based on the poor organisation of the people at the top. The FAI don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the IRFU or GAA.

Good thing you don't support the national team so or you'd be accused of hypocracy

[Stuttgart88]

The FAI don't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as the IRFU or GAA.
On the flip side Ciaran, having seen what happened in Saipan you'd think it could never happen again in Irish sport, yet the IRFU did as good a job as possible at copying it during the calamitous WC07 campaign, including the preparation. The report published in response was a whitewash of epic proportions that put the original Genesis Report in the shade.

The IRFU is certainly to be commended in its opportunism. However the same opportunity was and probably never will be available to the FAI. I doubt we'll ever be able to keep our best footballers in Ireland playing regularly against top class players from other countries week in week out. Football is so much bigger overseas that money will always be higher. This isn't the case in rugby. Also, strong national leagues among our neighbours and international club competitions are long established in football and even if there was a commercial or footballing need or demand for a Magners League among the lesser football nations, UEFA probably wouldn't sanction it. Elroy aluded to this above.

I personally feel that a degree of cross-border competition may actually be the "solution", despite how many noses would be put out by it.

A blog piece on foot.ie seems to put the FAI in a good light re-licensing etc. If the FAI is to be believed there really has been a shift to state of the art governance structures in the Irish game.

Just one side of the argument but valid nonetheless...

[Stuttgart88]

Anyone see Kevin Myers today comparing the Grand Slam win with a Norway win in cross-country skiing? Big for them but it'd go unnoticed in most of the sporting world. He has a point!

[John83]

On the flip side Ciaran, having seen what happened in Saipan you'd think it could never happen again in Irish sport, yet the IRFU did as good a job as possible at copying it during the calamitous WC07 campaign, including the preparation. The report published in response was a whitewash of epic proportions that put the original Genesis Report in the shade.
Having jumped through any number of hoops to get hold of the original Genesis Report (various UCD fans followed numerous avenues to failure before the late Seamus Brennan got us a copy), and having confirmed with the IRFU that their Genesis Report was not being made available to the public, I'm not sure that it's fair to make a comparison. But perhaps I'm making bad assumptions, and you're connected enough to have read both reports. In my opinion, the report on Saipan was fairly pathetic. The IRFU one would have to be unspeakably bad to really "put [it] in the shade".


A blog piece on foot.ie seems to put the FAI in a good light re-licensing etc. If the FAI is to be believed there really has been a shift to state of the art governance structures in the Irish game.

Just one side of the argument but valid nonetheless...I assume you mean the Q&A with Padraig Smith? In fairness, he is an FAI employee - that article was always going to show the FAI in a good light. There do appear to be significant improvements to governance here, but it's not yet clear that these are effective or being implimented correctly. The perception among many fans is that licensing has been and continues to be fudged, and the financial problems of last year belie any claims that everything's suddenly rosy. I'm still willing to give it time - things were in such a bad state that it will take ages to right.

[Stuttgart88]

The opportunity for fans to watch what is widely perceived as the Chamipons League equivalent on their own doorstep has generated interest in Rugby unheard of 10+ years ago.On top of that, it also allows the public to relate to our "stars" in a way that it's hard to with our UK football stars. The rubgy guys live here and work here. The footballers are away in the clouds!

As said above, the old bond between fan and team has been broken in football but it can be won back - the likes of Doyle and Stephen Hunt clearly have brought a sense of realism back into the fold.

[Stuttgart88]

In my opinion, the report on Saipan was fairly pathetic. The IRFU one would have to be unspeakably bad to really "put [it] in the shade".

I didn't read the rugby report but the newspapers covered it well and were scathing of it. I can't remember the key details but I think the biggest criticism was the offering of EO'S a lucrative new long term contract at a time when it was almost unanimous his job should at best be deserving of only one short last chance. I think everyone in the game agreed it was a whitewash, no blame was placed despite a number of disastrous errors in the preparation and organisation.

[John83]

I didn't read the rugby report but the newspapers covered it well and were scathing of it. I can't remember the key details but I think the biggest criticism was the offering of EO'S a lucrative new long term contract at a time when it was almost unanimous his job should at best be deserving of only one short last chance. I think everyone in the game agreed it was a whitewash, no blame was placed despite a number of disastrous errors in the preparation and organisation.
I may have this wrong, but I think that journalists were only given access to an IRFU summary (which was published in full). This could have significantly distorted the perception of the report.

[tricky_colour]

Looking through some RTE viewership figures I was really surprised to see the Soccer matches doing so poorly, not just against Rugby but against all sports in general. Especially since we're doing so well this campaign.

Average figures for some sporting events are:

Ireland v Wales (Rugby) - 952,000
All Ireland Hurling Final - 709,000
All Ireland Football Final - 707,00
Bernard Dunne's Fight - 585,000
Ireland v Cyprus - 517,000

You might argue that the four ranked above the qualifier were all far more significant matches in their sport than the qualifier but what was really telling for me was moving away from Ireland games and comparing a big Six Nations game with a big Champions League game.

France v Wales (Six Nations) - 536,000
Man Utd v Inter Milan (Champions League) - 497,000

I read before that the Premiership highlights show prior to christmas was getting stuffed ratings wise by the Heineken Cup highlights show too, nice to see the sporting shift move away from foreign teams and on to our own. Just hope our national teams public interest decline halts soon, I really think we need to qualify this campaign or the game in this country is in serious trouble.

Sources:

http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0323/ireland.html
http://www.rte.ie/arts/2009/0110/rtetelevision.html
http://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/sixnations/2009/0302/ireland1.html
http://www.rte.ie/about/pressreleases/2008/1016/irelandvcyprus16102008.html

This is rubbish, he is comparing peak figures for the non-football games to peak firgures for other sports.

The peak figure for Cyprus was about 750,000 - case dismissed.

[jbyrne]

Anyone see Kevin Myers today comparing the Grand Slam win with a Norway win in cross-country skiing? Big for them but it'd go unnoticed in most of the sporting world. He has a point!

Irish begrudging "journalism" at its best :rolleyes:
that comparison is ridiculous but myres is a twit so nothing better to be expected. rugby is actually huge in many countries that are not in the rugby limelight and coverage of our grand slam will be a lot wider than that clown would ever imagine

hes in the independant isnt he? they started the begrudgery as early as their sunday morning offering with a nonsense article about the grand slam not being that big deal

[irishultra]

kevin myers:rolleyes:

[Stuttgart88]

I may have this wrong, but I think that journalists were only given access to an IRFU summary (which was published in full). This could have significantly distorted the perception of the report.Sounds like you know more about it than I do. Still, my contention is only that the IRFU isn't beyond criticism.

I'd add that as far as I can recall the FAI was rightly shafted by the government over eircom park which was actually largely underwritten by a major bank. I don't think the FAI has ever got a great deal from government.

Just adding some balance on the issue anyway, the FAI has rightly attracted criticism over the years too.

[tricky_colour]

Peak figures for most of the Irish six nations games were over a million (1.1 v scotland, 1.2 v Wales) those are average figures I posted.


Hmmm you posted a link to the England Rugby match which was not in the list of figures, that peaked at 9 million, seem I confused that with the Wales match figures.

[gspain]

Peak figures for most of the Irish six nations games were over a million (1.1 v scotland, 1.2 v Wales) those are average figures I posted.

You did not. You have already been picked up on this.

You posted the constant figure for the Cyprus match. This is the number of people who watched the whole game on RTE without changing channels. The average for adults 15+ was higher than this not to mind overall viewers.

Indeed the peak figure is probably more realistic as it was for the analysis. I watch the champions league on Sky but watch the RTE panel.