View Full Version : Shame on Cork and Drogheda
cheech
02/02/2009, 1:09 PM
How these two clubs can be allowed to even prepare for a season in the Premier Division here is an absolute farce in my opinion.
A ten point deduction is not a big enough deterrent for going into examinership. You sign a fleet of top players, rack up enough points to be safe and then pull the plug.
One of the main things that comes out of this mess is that a lot of businesses are now very wary to do business with eircom League clubs. More than one business has faced financial ruin as they only get a fraction of the money owed to them.
We all get tarred with the one brush. Examinership should not be an option to clubs unless they're prepared to be demoted.
This isn't a rant against fans of either club who I have nothing but admiration for in securing the futures of their clubs.
The fact that both these clubs will probably take their places in the Premier again next year as if nothing has happened. This is a major problem.
We as a league and organisation are a mess. That is why our top clubs have average gates of a couple of thousand.
A lot of fans here are always on their high horse about why Irish people support English teams. Well my English/Scottish club supporting friends and colleagues look on our league as a joke and it is easy to see why.
Doesn't the licensing board have the power to do whatever they feel appropriate as a punishment for examinership though?...perhaps this issue is not yet cut and dried.
Yes there has been 10 point deductions already, but if you relegate clubs mid season you take a lot away from the league and it scares off potential investors in the clubs. So maybe they went with the rap on the knuckles at the time and will break out the big stick before next year. I don't think either club could complain if they did so.
I seriously, seriously doubt it will happen, but it would send out a strong message that reckless trading has real consequences.
Rovers Maniac
02/02/2009, 1:24 PM
Sure in the uk teams entering administration face only a points deduction !? Although probably best to put that in place from the start of the follwoing season.
A ten point deduction is not a big enough deterrent for going into examinership. You sign a fleet of top players, rack up enough points to be safe and then pull the plug.
.
Surely you should be saying shame on the disciplinary committee who made the decision?
The clubs didnt control it.
I agree its not a strong enough punishment though. Imo should be automatic relegation
Doesn't the licensing board have the power to do whatever they feel appropriate as a punishment for examinership though?...perhaps this issue is not yet cut and dried.
They did have that power, when they went to make the decision originally. They decided on 10 point deduction.
There will be(can be?) no further punishment for the same offense.
what I thought would happen would there would be further punishments for different rules e.g. the wage cap. But if they were to do that theyd have to punish almost every club Id imagine so I cant see that happening.
A face
02/02/2009, 3:40 PM
We haven't have snow in a while, makes a nice change i have to say.
They did have that power, when they went to make the decision originally. They decided on 10 point deduction.
There will be(can be?) no further punishment for the same offense.
what I thought would happen would there would be further punishments for different rules e.g. the wage cap. But if they were to do that theyd have to punish almost every club Id imagine so I cant see that happening.
Absolutely fair points. They can either use the 65% rule or some other 'catch all' type rule to take things further. They can always say they punished you for entering examinership, and punish you again for exiting while fecking over creditors and gaining an advantage over other clubs by being able to walk away from debt.
But like I said above, it won't happen. The FAI seem to be taking the approach of prevention for the future rather than punishment for the past.
pineapple stu
02/02/2009, 4:16 PM
The FAI seem to be taking the approach of prevention for the future rather than punishment for the past.
I'd be happy with that if they manage it.
Agreed, it would still represent serious progress if we could go a season without a club going into meltdown.
MariborKev
02/02/2009, 6:50 PM
Are you serious? Would you honestly like to see Cork and Drogs go down this year?
What a blow that would be to the league.
Prevention is better than Cure,thats what they say anyway,so the better thing to do would be to safeguard the future instead of punishing the clubs now.
We have no guarantee that this "prevention" method is any improvement. This is the first time that we are aware of the FAI rejecting budgets, but that doesn't say that clubs wouldn't end up in the same position never year.
Licensing is a sham and has been since the first year. It will continue to be so until a club(whether it be mine or another) is properly punished for flagrant breaches.
Celdrog
02/02/2009, 7:10 PM
More than one business has faced financial ruin as they only get a fraction of the money owed to them. Please name 2
brianw82
02/02/2009, 7:45 PM
This argument has been done to death in numerous other threads. Why do we need to go over it again?
A face
02/02/2009, 8:02 PM
Prolonged falls of snow likely in parts of Leinster forecasted for tomorrow. We are really in for a cold snap for a few days.
Longfordian
02/02/2009, 8:31 PM
But what about the children?..
CSFShels
02/02/2009, 11:20 PM
Are you serious? Would you honestly like to see Cork and Drogs go down this year?
What a blow that would be to the league.
Prevention is better than Cure,thats what they say anyway,so the better thing to do would be to safeguard the future instead of punishing the clubs now.
Drogs going down would not be a blow to the league. If they do stay up they'll be a nothing team anyway. And Cork being put down would be a benefit to the league, to send a loud message instead of this 'well we'll do it next time' malarchy.
thischarmingman
03/02/2009, 9:37 AM
Are you serious? Would you honestly like to see Cork and Drogs go down this year?
What a blow that would be to the league.
Prevention is better than Cure,thats what they say anyway,so the better thing to do would be to safeguard the future instead of punishing the clubs now.
A blow to the league? I think you'll find the league will be quite capable of surviving without Drogs or Cork in the top flight. Cork would certainly not be down for long anyhow. People said it would be a blow to the league if institutions like Dundalk, Shamrock Rovers or Shelbourne went down in recent year but it's proven to be utter nonsense. I don't like to see any club go down, especially two who have been so successful in recent history but it is important to punish now to safeguard the future, and make it clear that the kind of spending that's gone on in previous seasons is simply not an option anymore.
A face
03/02/2009, 9:56 AM
But what about the children?..
Yeah, wont someone think of the children, they must be frozen :p
tiktok
03/02/2009, 10:13 AM
Examinership should not be an option to clubs unless they're prepared to be demoted.
CCFC were prepared to be demoted [I expected we would be]. It's not the fault of either club that they followed the legal path available to them through the High Court and that the punishment we received from the league was a 10 point deduction.
Why should CCFC and DUFC be ashamed, do you think we should have argued for a tougher punishment to be laid against us? Take a deep breath and direct your anger properly.
At least CCFC ousted the shower that got us into the mess. As for relationship with businesses, they'll have to be rebuilt. It's a shame that creditors didn't get their full amount owed back from CFC and DUFC, but the creditors that have been affected by the 70 other companies whoo are going through examinership right now in this country are affected too, that's not an issue exclusive to the LoI.
sadloserkid
03/02/2009, 10:18 AM
We haven't have snow in a while, makes a nice change i have to say.
Prolonged falls of snow likely in parts of Leinster forecasted for tomorrow. We are really in for a cold snap for a few days.
Not sure how big a problem the snow is when your head is already buried in the sand! :p
Drogs going down would not be a blow to the league. If they do stay up they'll be a nothing team anyway. And Cork being put down would be a benefit to the league, to send a loud message instead of this 'well we'll do it next time' malarchy.
100% correct. Clubs need to stop signing players that they can't afford. The whole league is nothing but a microcosm of the celtic tiger, an illusion of international progress built almost entirely on money that doesn't exist.
A face
03/02/2009, 10:42 AM
Not sure how big a problem the snow is when your head is already buried in the sand!
No no no, its in the snow y'see !!! :D
Seriously though, i hear whats being said. I'm still back at the stage where i feel lucky to have a club in the Munster Senior League. Aside from the complaints here i think most fans are still happy that Arkaga weren't able to inflict any more / fatal damage to the club.
And everything after that, as Tiktok said, what can we do. We're not gonna actively go looking for punishment, its gonna be hard enough as it is to be honest.
Do you want all City fans to go out and start whipping ourselves with chains and poking our eyes out with a rusty nail, go fasting and walk across a bed of hot coals? Cos we'll do it SLK, we'll do it ..... if it means staying in top flight football for 2009 then we'll do it .... break out the fire lighters there now, i'm taking off my shoes and socks as we speak !! ;):p
sadloserkid
03/02/2009, 10:44 AM
Do you want all City fans to go out and start whipping ourselves with chains and poking our eyes out with a rusty nail, go fasting and walk across a bed of hot coals?
Sort of! :o
Just to qualify I think the notion of blaming clubs for the punishment handed out to them is nonsense.
I entirely agree with what's posted above- I have no problem with Cork and Drogheda.
I just think letting them off with a slap on the wrists sends out an incredibly bad signal that financial insanity is actually well worth it in some ways, especially if you lack assets.
tiktok
03/02/2009, 2:18 PM
I just think letting them off with a slap on the wrists sends out an incredibly bad signal that financial insanity is actually well worth it in some ways, especially if you lack assets.
Your probably right, but the issue there is the lawmaker, not the individual clubs.
Anyway, neither has officially gotten their licence yet, who knows what twists might be around the corner.
Celdrog
03/02/2009, 5:24 PM
I just think letting them off with a slap on the wrists sends out an incredibly bad signal that financial insanity is actually well worth it in some ways, especially if you lack assets.Great point Mr A. I personally believe it should be automatic relegation, however I'm not even sure that would be a major deterrent.
When the next team goes belly-up I'm sure the FAI will come down on them like a ton of bricks, which will be unfair (unless its Dundalk;))
shantykelly
03/02/2009, 11:40 PM
sure shelbourne went through the same situation, and it didnt deter anybody.
harps1954
04/02/2009, 3:17 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.
Celdrog
04/02/2009, 5:43 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.And plenty more to follow.....
MariborKev
04/02/2009, 6:12 PM
For the love of God.
Every time I being to believe the League is getting serious about regulation they manage to backtrack.....
A face
04/02/2009, 7:16 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.
For the love of God.
Every time I being to believe the League is getting serious about regulation they manage to backtrack.....
The FAI have always said that they will try and assist clubs in getting a license, not try and prevent them in getting one. And i think that is a good policy to have.
tiktok
04/02/2009, 7:31 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.
I don't see any problem with that, they only found out they'd still be in existence last week.
It's not like Harps would get their place were they unsuccessful anyway.
Providing we get our own license, yes we would.
Scrufil
04/02/2009, 9:12 PM
Has anyone read the current FAI guidelines on licensing? Perhaps there is leeway there for this to be allowed but if there is none then they should include it now so they can define what 'helping a club' means.
Buile Shuibhne
04/02/2009, 9:26 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.
Where did the FAI say this?
Battery Rover
04/02/2009, 9:30 PM
I see the FAI have moved the goalposts and have given Drogheda an extra week to get their licence application lodged with the FAI.
No goalposts moved whatsoever.
Under article 5.3.3 of the licensing manual any club is entitled to apply for an extension to the submission date.
SeanDrog
05/02/2009, 5:52 AM
No goalposts moved whatsoever.
Under article 5.3.3 of the licensing manual any club is entitled to apply for an extension to the submission date.
ssshhh you'll ruin their groundless rants if you start using facts. Shame on you :p
higgins
07/02/2009, 2:04 PM
It's all more inconsistant crap from the FAI.
Another season goes by and still we're talking about next season being better, they will get tough and sort it all out starting next year!!!
We've been hearing this for the past few years now.
Infastructure was meant to be sorted after a few years but still nobody gets punished.
Cork and Drogheda are not the first to go into examinership. If it wasn't fair then they should have punished them and not started talking about how next year will be different.
All we have now is any time the FAI make a decision that doesn't seem fair they will claim next year will be different. How many years do we have to listen to this ?
Everyone knows that the FAI can punish clubs for their actions this year.
Cork and Drogheda are not the first to go into examinership. If it wasn't fair then they should have punished them.
They did punish both clubs - both clubs got points deducted. Though I think we all believe (well i know i do!!) that as soon as a club goes into examinership they should be relegated automatically. Though that ain't a rule at the moment, should be changed though
osarusan
07/02/2009, 8:09 PM
Though I think we all believe (well i know i do!!) that as soon as a club goes into examinership they should be relegated automatically.
I'd fully agree with this, but what happens if a club goes into examinership during a season? The club, when they come out of examinership, will know they will be relegated regardless of future results, and will probably offload some of their better players and start preparing for the following season's campaign. That will be somewhat unfair to teams who played them before they went into examinership. It is a pretty small point I guess, but such things can be crucial to other teams chances of winning the league.
corkboy360
07/02/2009, 10:47 PM
How these two clubs can be allowed to even prepare for a season in the Premier Division here is an absolute farce in my opinion.
A ten point deduction is not a big enough .
Lost a lot of money from the 10 point deduction.
Gate receipts for the last couple of games last season and money from europe.
higgins
08/02/2009, 7:48 AM
Lost a lot of money from the 10 point deduction.
Gate receipts for the last couple of games last season and money from europe.
I'm sure the 92.5% savings you made on your debts went some way to making up for it :rolleyes:
adamd164
08/02/2009, 10:57 AM
Ridiculous thread - clubs aren't to blame for the punishment they receive.
corkboy360
08/02/2009, 12:16 PM
How these two clubs can be allowed to even prepare for a season in the Premier Division here is an absolute farce in my opinion.
A ten point deduction is not a big enough deterrent for going into examinership. You sign a fleet of top players, rack up enough points to be safe and then pull the plug.
One of the main things that comes out of this mess is that a lot of businesses are now very wary to do business with eircom League clubs. More than one business has faced financial ruin as they only get a fraction of the money owed to them.
We all get tarred with the one brush. Examinership should not be an option to clubs unless they're prepared to be demoted.
This isn't a rant against fans of either club who I have nothing but admiration for in securing the futures of their clubs.
The fact that both these clubs will probably take their places in the Premier again next year as if nothing has happened. This is a major problem.
We as a league and organisation are a mess. That is why our top clubs have average gates of a couple of thousand.
A lot of fans here are always on their high horse about why Irish people support English teams. Well my English/Scottish club supporting friends and colleagues look on our league as a joke and it is easy to see why.
Who do ya follow yourself ?
That might give us an insight into why you started this thread
To mods: Last time I posted negatives on a club i got a warning. Anything going to be said to this fellow.
osarusan
08/02/2009, 12:35 PM
To mods: Last time I posted negatives on a club i got a warning. Anything going to be said to this fellow.
To be fair, although I think the original poster has gone overboard in some parts of the post, I also think some points are valid.
What the FAI seem to be saying is that going into examinership will result in a 10-point deduction, and nothing more. The majority of Cork and Drogheda fans whose opinions I've read on this site have agreed that their punishment was too lenient - most expected a first division licence at best.
A ten point deduction is not a big enough deterrent for going into examinership. You sign a fleet of top players, rack up enough points to be safe and then pull the plug.
Although I don't expect any club to see going into administration as a positive thing, the FAI ruling seems to say that you can go badly into debt, have the slate wiped clean in examinership, and carry on only 10 points poorer. The punishment, if only 10 points, is not serious enough to deter clubs completely.
If that is what this ruling means, I completely disagree with it. I think it sets a dangerous precedent in the future for when and if other clubs go into examinership.
What I am wondering about is if the FAI felt Cork and Drogheda were "too big" to be relegated, and so were only given the points deduction. I fully agree with other posters though that any anger / frustration should be directed at the FAI for making the ruling, rather than the clubs who are hardly going to ask for more punishment than they got.
The majority of Cork and Drogheda fans whose opinions I've read on this site have agreed that their punishment was too lenient - most expected a first division licence at best.
Hold on a second, I havenrt read any post from a drogs fan saying they expect a division one license. the way the rules are at the moment for examinership theres no reason why that should affect our premier division license. 100% expect a premier division licence (but the rules should be changed that if you enter examinership, it should mean automatic relegation!!)
Celdrog
08/02/2009, 5:54 PM
But the rules should be changed to make it automatic relegation for going into examinership.
Bald Student
08/02/2009, 6:31 PM
The rules should be changed to catch clubs long before they go into examinership.
pineapple stu
08/02/2009, 6:37 PM
There is a new rule now, according to Fran Gavin in the Indo last week -
For example, one of the new rules will be: if a club does go into examinership now, there will be major consequences for them.
So everything will be Ok from now on.
Lim till i die
08/02/2009, 6:46 PM
For example, one of the new rules will be: if a club does go into examinership now, there will be major consequences for them.
Sigh :rolleyes:
Buile Shuibhne
08/02/2009, 11:22 PM
Regardless of what Fran Gavin says or thinks - the 2009 Licencing rules are already laid out, and don't stipultate what he says there.
tiktok
09/02/2009, 8:15 AM
I'm sure the 92.5% savings you made on your debts went some way to making up for it :rolleyes:
Yes, all that money we didn't have really added to the club coffers.
higgins
09/02/2009, 3:03 PM
And your available money to spend next season would be the exact same had you come to long term deals to pay all creditors 100% of the money you owe them ??
Did you or did you not gain a sporting advantage ?
As for the rules....
It's clear the FAI can punish the clubs now whatever way they want. There's probably 101 ways to do so. They more or less made it up with Shels i.e. it was for some straight forward rule of not paying players.
If the FAI want to punish clubs they can under the current rules.
Both Cork and Drogheda have broke many rules this year.
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