FIFA rankings thread

[swinfordfc]

So now in the rankings - we are down to 37th placed - bloody hell - we getting worst ..... :p

[Infadel]

I find the rankings completly flawed I know we haven't qualified for any major tournaments since 2002 but we still were steady performers and didn't suffer lots of defeats but looking at some of the teams ahead of us shows how flawed it is Isreal who didn't qualify for any tournament in a good while same with Bulgaria

[carloz]

That might happen initially, but surely if Dutch teams were playing regularly in Belgium that would boost attendances and sponsorship, and eventually that injection of money would help those teams compete with the Dutch teams?

I guess thats what they are hoping for. Think the team that finished bottom of the Dutch league went bust last year. Guess there are posititives and negatives to it.

[jbyrne]

while our 'world class' centre back is gonna be sold to Stoke City.


i have to ask have you been watching our recent games? poor attempt at a pop at one of our true current great players.
i couldnt care less if dunne was playing for my local side as long as he kept playing the way he is for Ireland. his performance last week was world class.

[DeLorean]

So now in the rankings - we are down to 37th placed - bloody hell - we getting worst ..... :p

Credible away draws don't seem to do much to climb the rankings table.


i have to ask have you been watching our recent games? poor attempt at a pop at one of our true current great players.
i couldnt care less if dunne was playing for my local side as long as he kept playing the way he is for Ireland. his performance last week was world class.

I agree. Pointless cheap shot.

[EalingGreen]

I find the rankings completly flawed I know we haven't qualified for any major tournaments since 2002 but we still were steady performers and didn't suffer lots of defeats but looking at some of the teams ahead of us shows how flawed it is Isreal who didn't qualify for any tournament in a good while same with Bulgariahttp://www.rsssf.com/tablesi/isra-intres00.html

If you look at Israel's record in competitive games (WCQ and Euros), they've only lost 6 in their last 34 games, with only one of 16 at home (3-4 vs Croatia). This has earned them a lot of points.

Granted, they don't win enough to get into the top rank of teams (or qualify), but their solid consistency and difficulty to beat puts them up there in the second rank.

Imo some people dismiss or overlook their record over the last few years, which is decent (imo), because historically they were always in the 3rd/4th/5th rank of teams.

[carloz]

Just a point to add with that above. Im quite sure i read that Israel were the first team ever to go through a qualifying process unbeaten and still not qualify when they were in our group along with the French and the Swiss

[irishultra]

i have to ask have you been watching our recent games? poor attempt at a pop at one of our true current great players.
i couldnt care less if dunne was playing for my local side as long as he kept playing the way he is for Ireland. his performance last week was world class.

Yes I have he was class, his tackle when Petrov(was it?) went through was Baresi-esque but I want to see Irish players excel, playing for Stoke City is crap. If one of our best players is playing for Stoke City then I would be dissapointed, very dissapointed.

i want to see irish players in europe lifting trophies like roy keane, if they're playing for stoke they might as well play here, it would be a way to watch them every week, since we don't get to see the 'main' irish players play every week i would rather they were competing for medals and at the top of tables rather than playing for some random team.

[carloz]

Too be fair Stoke finsihed 12th last season. But I now what you are saying though. The days of our players filling the Man Utd and liverpool teams are well dead now:(

[Crosby87]

i want to see irish players in europe lifting trophies like roy keane, if they're playing for stoke they might as well play here, it would be a way to watch them every week, since we don't get to see the 'main' irish players play every week i would rather they were competing for medals and at the top of tables rather than playing for some random team.

When Roy Keane was playing he was the only one grabbing trophies right, and now John O'Shea is the only one....so whats changed?

[John83]

When Roy Keane was playing he was the only one grabbing trophies right, and now John O'Shea is the only one....so whats changed?
Mr Irwin's hired goons would like a word.

[irishultra]

Put it like this today I heard the Austrian centre back Pogatetz was linked with Roma, Dunne is linked with Stoke City. Why? Why will Dunne most likely end up at Stoke and a player he's far superior to end up playing for Roma? I just don't get it tbh. Are Irish players not very flexible when it comes to transfers or something?

[Predator]

Mr Irwin's hired goons would like a word.


Was just about to say!

Auld Denis was a hero.

Also, I suppose you could argue, for current players, that Finnan has got his fair share of trophies too? Damien Duff hasn't got a bad collection either. Even Aiden McGeady has a few trophies...

At the end of the day though, it's not the success the player has in his domestic career that matters, it's the (relative) success they bring to the national team that counts...

[irishultra]

Obviously yeah but the international experience is a bit crap then really, I like watching how Irish players do abroad, like seeing 3 Irish players in the UEFA cup(yes including steven ireland *shifty*) I was so hoping Manchester City would win Uefa Cup to see big Dunne lift the cup, when Ireland scored against Hamburg I was so happy :D

I would like to be able to see Dunne line up against Ibrahimovic, Hunt scamper past Lahm, Doyle head past Casilias etc. etc. As a fan I want to see this, it would be unique and something new. I don't follow English football except to watch Irish players so thats my reasoning.

*i realise i ended this post without any real conclusion, lol ran out of things to say*

[Predator]

I would like to be able to see Dunne line up against Ibrahimovic, Hunt scamper past Lahm, Doyle head past Casilias etc. etc.


As a fan I want to see this, it would be unique and something new.

Well, in this World Cup qualifying campaign, we've seen Ireland play Italy who have several world-class players in their team. Admittedly it's a weak Italy team in comparison to their predecessors, but they are nevertheless the World champions and consistently a top competitor in world football. In the 2002 World Cup, we played against Germany and Spain - both giants in terms of international football; Portugal, Holland, France in other qualifiers, the list goes on. I think that international competition is (or should be) the pinnacle of sporting endeavour. The World Cup for example, sees the best players in the best teams from across the globe compete for victory. Irish players have played and proven themselves against top opposition time and time again.

I do understand that you mean in terms of domestic and European competitions, but I think that the international stage provides more than ample opportunity for Ireland's players to demonstrate their ability against world-class opposition.

[WexCar]

Put it like this today I heard the Austrian centre back Pogatetz was linked with Roma, Dunne is linked with Stoke City. Why? Why will Dunne most likely end up at Stoke and a player he's far superior to end up playing for Roma? I just don't get it tbh. Are Irish players not very flexible when it comes to transfers or something?

its because 99% of irish players are content to play for championship teams and lower premiership teams than play further afield on the continent (especially with the amount of money in the english leagues), and therefore their agents dont try and engineer moves outside england. sad but true:(

[irishfan86]

I think Irish players prefer England (and are preferred by English teams) for a number of reasons.

-The English league has the best wages in Europe on average.
-England is close geographically to Ireland.
-Similar culturally and linguistically (little cultural adaption required).

Why play in Spain for lower wages, further from your family/friends in Ireland, and have to learn a new language if you don't have to?

Obviously it's a cultural experience a lot of people would jump at, but from a career perspective in terms of making money, playing in England makes a whole lot more sense.

[WexCar]

it shows either a lack of ambition (as in being successful and winning trophies) and being in it for the money, or low self-confidence in their ability to be competitive consistantly at the highest level.

[irishfan86]

it shows either a lack of ambition (as in being successful and winning trophies) and being in it for the money, or low self-confidence in their ability to be competitive consistantly at the highest level.

The English league is regarded as one of the best in Europe.

If you're playing against Europe and the world's best week in and week out, and not winning any trophies, I would call that more ambitious than going to a weaker league and winning trophies.

Is joining Celtic more ambitious than joining Everton or Spurs? I don't know. You've got a good chance of winning trophies though. :rolleyes:

[WexCar]

IMO playing for a top 5/6 team in spain, italy, germany is a hell of a lot better than playing for a mid-table mediocore premiership side as not only would you be competing for domestic trophies but have a better chance to play in CL. Whereas in england unless you play with the "big 4" you wont be playing CL football. By staying with an everton or a spurs there is only so far you can go and it shows a lack of ambition to challenge themselves to play in a new environment.

as regards ur point about going to weaker leagues there would be a limit(for lack of a better word) as playing in the EPL is better than for a top Belgian,french,danish etc. teams

[irishultra]

LOL this is about international ranking but anyway i went off topic(:o) wages i agree obviously play a part, I doubt other clubs in other countries would offer some Irish players near what they're getting as they get in England.

Its not really the Premiership I have a problem with, its a great league, i'd just rather some of our middle of the road players branched out a bit, so instead of Jay O'Shea for example joining Derby, he joined like a French team or a Dutch team. Or Glenn Whelan rather than Stoke(sorry any stoke fans :P) joined a high end German team. I dont know how transfers work, i know its not a case of irish players picking at will which team they'd feel would look good beside the teamsheet and i mean i presume if clubs talked to players like kevin doyle they would consider it, probably interest just isn't there.

As predator says in the grand scheme of things if ireland qualify for tournaments it doesnt matter just would be better imo.

[irishfan86]

Here's the other side of the argument though- why would a high ranking German side want Glenn Whelan?

[irishultra]

hes a great midfielder...duh!!!! :p

[WexCar]

Glenn Whelan ain't the best example, I'd be thinkin of our better players like Doyle, Duff, Keane, Dunne, McGeady

[irishfan86]

I think Duff would do really well in Spain, and I heard a few rumours that he is looking for a move there right now as well, so who knows.

In fairness to Keane, he tried his luck at Inter.

McGeady has also expressed an interest in playing in Spain.

I've heard Doyle talk admiringly about German and Italian football, so I don't think it's completely out of the realm of possibility.

Hopefully Finnan stays healthy next year and shows the Spanish sides what the Irish are all about. :cool:

[irishultra]

See its a bit of a weird situation since the majority of our pro players already play in a foreign league so its not as if we are like the Swiss who complain that their clubs offer their players too high wages so they don't play in other leagues(although I'd bet they have greater diversity in clubs than Irish)

I mean its accepted that the majority of prospective Irish internationals will start his career in England, however this will probably change over the next years as less English clubs bring Irish players over at 15/16. I'd say the days of a second division club in England getting Irish players is over, its simply not financial possibe(if ireland is impacted by the under 18 rule, although u never know with ireland and its relationship with britian, in years gone by we werent considered foreign on their league quotas but in champions league we were

players like garvan i would like to see elswhere, liam miller etc.

i just found this, a few things i dont like about article(irish are foreign anyway(altho maby a little less) in england) but pretty good. :D http://www.thegreatestsportsshowonearth.com/2008/12/kevin-doyle-needs-move.html

[WexCar]

just to bring this thread out on even more of a tangent it can be compared to british/Irish managers not managing outside of britian/ireland, players and managers can improve by branching out and going to other leagues eg. Alan Curbishly is out of work since West Ham and is waiting for a EPL job, on other hand u have Steve McClaren accepted a job in The Netherlands, does well by guiding FC Twente to CL and was linked with Ajax job.

[irishfan86]

Again, it comes down to money. Curbishley can get silly money in the Prem, whereas if you go to a place like FC Twente, some would consider that a step down, and you may not be able to get back in the Prem.

Look at a guy like Hodgson, once he jumped on the international circuit, he found it hard to get back into contention for English jobs.

Add in the fact that wives and kids have to adapt to a new language and/or culture and it just becomes unnecessary complications, especially when you consider you're taking a pay cut.

[irishultra]

its really rare for managers to step outside the culture their used to and the chances of irish managers managing non-english europeans teams unless they spend long careers in that country are very small. netherlands is weird because well they are brilliantly multi-lingual there but they have more than enough dutch(and flemish) to choose from. i mean steve mcclaren was the england manager in fairness, his rep is pretty much big enough for twente.

actually didn't don givens manage in switzerland?

[WexCar]

Add in the fact that wives and kids have to adapt to a new language and/or culture and it just becomes unnecessary complications, especially when you consider you're taking a pay cut.

thats all well and good but dey ain't exactly trying to survive on 20k a year.
they can afford to take a pay cut and still live very comfortably, i suppose its down to what their motivations are.

[irishultra]

ah ye well maby at the end of this summer the irish national team will be composed of players playing right across europe, whelan with ac milan, doyle with Wolfburg, Duff with Sevilla, Keane with Tottenham, Given with man city, dunne with roma, alex bruce with fiorentina, owen garvan with Palermo, Aiden mcgeady with bayern munich ...yada yada. lol. ah well im wrecked, later :)


edit: apparently doyle was linked with juve before the ireland italy game? somehow i dont hold much hope for doyler lining out for the old lady come august though

[WexCar]

well its just the obvious lack of interest in playing anywhere but england that gets to me, its like their not even aware of other leagues being an option for them and accepting championship and lower EPL teams when they cud do better, as i say its down to the individuals motivations

[irishfan86]

i mean steve mcclaren was the england manager in fairness, his rep is pretty much big enough for twente.

McClaren was smart to try and re-build his reputation outside of England after his time with the national team.

I really doubt he would have been able to get a Premiership job again after what the media did to him.

[WexCar]

i agree it was a smart decision by McClaren, being a success there can open up the door to bigger jobs on the continent and he may be able to forge a good career on the continent or put himself in contention for big jobs back in england

[irishultra]

ah i cant sleep :mad: :p anway doyle was a target of torino before he even joined pat's, but he wasn't really interested in football then(based on what i read). if there is one player who will play outside england and at a high level its doyle i reckon. the old trap connection maby???

irish football probably needs more mick wallaces tbh.

[EalingGreen]

Put it like this today I heard the Austrian centre back Pogatetz was linked with Roma, Dunne is linked with Stoke City. Why? Why will Dunne most likely end up at Stoke and a player he's far superior to end up playing for Roma? I just don't get it tbh. Are Irish players not very flexible when it comes to transfers or something?
As a big admirer of Dunne, I am surprised that City may be prepared to let him go (at least without signing a big name replacement) and even more surprised he might go to Sunderland, or even Stoke (no offence, Stokies).

However, there was an interesting comment by Mark Hughes at the weekend, which indicates how he rates Dunne (and Given).
Noting that City might still bid for a "marquee name" [a Kaka or a Ronaldo etc], he added however:
"We are not where Chelsea were when Abramovitch came in, competing for Champions League Finals and top four in the Premier League.
"We are starting at a lower level, so we have to make sure players we bring in are the right quality to make us successful. Shay Given and Gareth Barry epitomise the type we want - strong players who understand the Premier League."

I would have thought that Dunne was at the level of Given or Barry, therefore that maybe Hughes and he have just fallen out. Except that if Dunne were leaving City for mere personal reasons, you'd have thought better teams would be after him?

[EalingGreen]

I think Irish players prefer England (and are preferred by English teams) for a number of reasons.

-The English league has the best wages in Europe on average.
-England is close geographically to Ireland.
-Similar culturally and linguistically (little cultural adaption required).

Why play in Spain for lower wages, further from your family/friends in Ireland, and have to learn a new language if you don't have to?

Obviously it's a cultural experience a lot of people would jump at, but from a career perspective in terms of making money, playing in England makes a whole lot more sense.

English teams used to pay the best wages (ostensibly still do), but players in England are no longer the "best paid". That is, deductions mean that their take home is now less than in Spain.

For example, the top tax rate in England has just increased to 50%. In Spain it is 27%. Plus there is National Insurance. Plus Sterling has lost 20% against the Euro over the last 18 months.

Consequently, when eg Arshavin joined the Arse, he thought the tax would be 40% and he overlooked the NI, so that when you add in the Exchange Rate, he is now earning less than he was in Russia!

It is no coincidence that both Kaka and Ronaldo have gone to Spain when they have, and if Ribery moves, it is much more likely to be to Spain than England (unless maybe Chelsea really "go for it" and pay over the odds).

In the end, the top players go where the top money is. So that assuming English clubs will no longer be paying top money, then that will tell us more about the actual quality of those (so-called) "top" players who remain in England, whilst others head off to the Costas...

[Den Perry]

As a big admirer of Dunne, I am surprised that City may be prepared to let him go (at least without signing a big name replacement) and even more surprised he might go to Sunderland, or even Stoke (no offence, Stokies).

However, there was an interesting comment by Mark Hughes at the weekend, which indicates how he rates Dunne (and Given).
Noting that City might still bid for a "marquee name" [a Kaka or a Ronaldo etc], he added however:
"We are not where Chelsea were when Abramovitch came in, competing for Champions League Finals and top four in the Premier League.
"We are starting at a lower level, so we have to make sure players we bring in are the right quality to make us successful. Shay Given and Gareth Barry epitomise the type we want - strong players who understand the Premier League."

I would have thought that Dunne was at the level of Given or Barry, therefore that maybe Hughes and he have just fallen out. Except that if Dunne were leaving City for mere personal reasons, you'd have thought better teams would be after him?

I think Dunne is a fantastic centre half. However I will admit he had a few disasters last season. That said, an awful lot of defenders can have a very poor season and go on to perform to their best again. eg Rio Ferdinand, even Vidic in his first season with Man Ure was dodgy.In addition, I don't think he was helped by the performances of the way overrated Richards back there(even if he spent most of the season at right back) Indeed, Wayne Bridge, another I rate highly had a poor first season at City.

[briar007]

Doesn't anyone think league of Ireland players should get a look in on the senior squad , they play winter football and are on a par with many of the current crop - Alas I don't think it will happen unless I become manager, the likes of joe Lapira - Nybersgund Idrettslag Trysil- Anyone heard of them before ?

[John83]

Agreed elo is much more sensible and fairer than FIFA, but I don't see the need for it. There are only 53 countries contesting each UEFA championships, as opposed to potentially thousands of chess masters. There's also a potential oddity given what has happened recently in qualifying games- Spain surrendered to NI who imploded versus Iceland who lost heavily to Liechtenstein. Would that distort the elo points they earned against each other?

Any system which ranks teams on the last three tournaments (in ratio 40:40:20) looks daft.
Sorry for the belated reply, but I just noticed your post when I went looking for the link I posted.

Each of the results you mentioned would result in a change in the ratings of the countries in question, but not by an exception amount.

Their current ratings:
Spain 2099
Northern Ireland 1557
Iceland 1390
Liechtenstein 1153

Each of the results you pointed out would be an upset, but only the NI one was very unlikely: their expected score was <10% (where 100% is wins every time and 50% is wins half the time, draws every time, or some mixture). Even that result would change Spain's rating by ~36 points, which is just slightly less than the gap back to 2nd (Brazil). It's a big jump relatively, but the Elo system is fairly stable - it's a good measure of performance over time.

[swinfordfc]

Yes, it's based on results in the last 48 months.
To better understand how the rankings work, see the FIFA Ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/search/label/detailed%20totals) detailed point totals section on my site.

I have you tied for 37th with Honduras.

FIFA Ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2009/06/fifa-ranking-july-2009-probable-ranking_12.html): July 2009 probable ranking (III).

We'll have a better picture on June 28th.

So what the update like? :D

[Edgar]

So what the update like? :D

Still 37th.

FIFA Ranking (http://www.football-rankings.info/2009/06/fifa-ranking-july-2009-preview-iv.html): July 2009 preview (IV).

[swinfordfc]

July 1st - We be 37th placed - thats sounds awful ....... damn staunton ...... you tell me ....:D

[gilberto_eire]

Some country in Africa called Gabon seems to have over taken us, can't say i ever heard of them until now :D

[tricky_colour]

Some country in Africa called Gabon seems to have over taken us, can't say i ever heard of them until now :D

They may be saying the same thing about Ireland :p

[DeLorean]

Officially the most ridiculous rating system ever. Gabon jumped up 18 places and Ireland drop 3 after a couple of decent results. Spain knocked off top after one defeat in 35, having won 14 straight...and that was in a semi final, going on to claim 3rd place.

FIFA Rankings - 1st July 2009 (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html)

[DeLorean]

Just doing some research there trying to make some sense of it all. Ireland got about 400 pts for their draw in Bulgaria, Gabon got over 800 for a home win against Togo and Romania got over 1000 pts for beating Lithuania away!! Not sure how they apply these points to the actual ranking table cos Ireland seem to be down 4pts on June. Apologies if this was explained further back in the thread cos I know there was some technical stuff going on earlier, might take a look in a while.

[Gather round]

Here's an alternative European ranking. It's basically points in the current qualifiers, with everyone in the five-team group getting an extra six points. I'm pretending they all get to play some notional 54th country- the Vatican City, say ;)

Goal difference and head to head ignored.

1 Netherlands 9 27
2 England 7 21
3 Spain 6 18
3 Serbia 7 18
5 Denmark 6 16
5 Germany 6 16
7 Russia 6 15
7 Slovakia 6 15
9 Italy 6 14
10 R Ireland 7 13
10 N Ireland 7 13
10 Hungary 6 13
10 Greece 6 13
10 Switzerland 6 13
10 Scotland 7 13
10 Macedonia 8 13
17 Bosnia 6 12
18 Croatia 6 11
18 Ukraine 6 11
20 France 5 10
21 Lithuania 7 9
22 Latvia 6 10
22 Poland 6 10
22 Finland 6 10
22 Iceland 9 10
26 Norway 7 9
26 Wales 7 9
26 Israel 6 9
26 Portugal 6 9
26 Sweden 6 9
26 Belarus 5 9
32 Czechia 6 8
32 Slovenia 6 8
32 Bulgaria 6 8
32 Turkey 6 8
36 Belgium 6 7
36 Austria 6 7
36 Romania 6 7
39 Albania 8 6
40 Estonia 6 5
40 Cyprus 6 5
42 Montenegro 6 4
42 Luxembourg 6 4
44 Kazakhstan 7 3
44 Georgia 7 3
46 Moldova 6 1
46 Malta 8 1
46 Azerbaijan 5 1
46 Faroe Islands 5 1
46 Liechtenstein 6 1
46 Armenia 6 1
52 San Marino 7 0
52 Andorra 7 0

[EalingGreen]

Officially the most ridiculous rating system ever. Gabon jumped up 18 places and Ireland drop 3 after a couple of decent results. Spain knocked off top after one defeat in 35, having won 14 straight...and that was in a semi final, going on to claim 3rd place.

FIFA Rankings - 1st July 2009 (http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html)
The FIFA World Rankings are seriously flawed in one respect (imo), namely in the relative weightings between the different Confederations.
For although a competitive win in eg the European Championships scores more highly than one in its CONCACAF or Oceania equivalent, nonetheless the difference in weighting is not nearly big enough.
I am sure that this is because if a truer weighting were introduced, the World Rankings would be even more heavily dominated by the European nations than they already are, at the expense of teams from Africa and COCACAF (especially), Asia and even South America (outside of Brazil and Argentina).
In which case, FIFA would have greater difficulty than at present in justifying so many World Cup places for the non-European Confederations which, in nearly 80 years of trying, haven't won one single World Cup (Brazil & Argentina excepted, obviously).

However, a more realistic picture of a European country's progress may be obtained by looking at the UEFA Rankings subset:
http://www.fifa.com/worldfootball/ranking/lastranking/gender=m/fullranking.html#confederation=27275&rank=183

P.S. Spain weren't really "knocked off top", despite finishing 3rd in the Confederations Cup etc. Rather, they were overtaken by Brazil, who actually won the competition, following five straight victories. Prior to the Confed. Cup, Brazil had won 8 and drawn the remaining 4 of their 12 matches.
http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=bra/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html#

[DeLorean]

The FIFA World Rankings are seriously flawed in one respect (imo), namely in the relative weightings between the different Confederations.
For although a competitive win in eg the European Championships scores more highly than one in its CONCACAF or Oceania equivalent, nonetheless the difference in weighting is not nearly big enough.
I am sure that this is because if a truer weighting were introduced, the World Rankings would be even more heavily dominated by the European nations than they already are, at the expense of teams from Africa and COCACAF (especially), Asia and even South America (outside of Brazil and Argentina).
In which case, FIFA would have greater difficulty than at present in justifying so many World Cup places for the non-European Confederations which, in nearly 80 years of trying, haven't won one single World Cup (Brazil & Argentina excepted, obviously).

And Uruguay! Ya I agree with that and it just comes back to FIFA wanting the World Cup to represent the World and not necessarily the 32 best teams.


P.S. Spain weren't really "knocked off top", despite finishing 3rd in the Confederations Cup etc. Rather, they were overtaken by Brazil, who actually won the competition, following five straight victories. Prior to the Confed. Cup, Brazil had won 8 and drawn the remaining 4 of their 12 matches.
http://www.fifa.com/associations/association=bra/fixturesresults/gender=m/index.html#

Yeah it's a decent run Brazil are on but on top of winning the European Championships Spain have equalled World records all over the place. Just think losing one match shouldn't have had such a big impact.