Trapattoni - Questionable?

[paul_oshea]

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

Jicked I meant in terms of results. The football, in terms of organisation and defence bar the poland game has improved immensely.

[DeLorean]

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?!

Of course we have faith in Trapp in relation to what he's done in the game up until now. I was only trying to say that'll me f*** all to me if he doesn't continue that with us. To be honest, if anybody else was making the decisions he's making there'd be a far bigger outrage. Nobody is looking for his head and everybody hopes he succeeds. We know the man has a system he thinks will benefit Ireland and that's fair enough but we are allowed to question some of the team selections, we could be proved wrong and I for one hope I am, I hope Whelan is a revelation in the rest of the campaign and Gibson blossoms into the player that Fergie and co thinks he's capable of.....it's a big price to pay though if they don't.

[Dr. Ogba]

I don't think Trap should be criticized for not giving young players a chance per se, but rather for giving the wrong young players a chance!

Trap has faith in McShane (age 22), Darron Gibson (age 21), Andy Keogh (age 22), McGeady (age 22).

I don't look at his team and say, "I wish he brought through more youth."

I look at it and say, "why is he calling up these players (regardless of what age they are), when there are better players available?!"

irishfan86 - you've pretty much summed up all of the points i've been too lazy to make and for this I doff my cap to you good sir....:)

[Stuttgart88]

Yep, good points IF86. I think McGeady may justify his place though.

[irishfan86]

Yep, good points IF86. I think McGeady may justify his place though.

Perhaps including McGeady in there was the wrong thing to do, as I do like him.

I was just saying that those are 4 young players that Trap has faith in, so it's not as if he's playing an entire team of players near 30.

As I said before, I don't care about age, I just want the best players/team on the field, and that isn't happening right now.

[DotTV]

Are the players being left out THAT much better than the ones that are in there? We've got a weak squad. He's only got so much to work with.

So far we've looked organised and been hard to beat. That's the basis any good team should be based off. The bells and whistles will come later...if needed at all.

[geysir]

I think it's obvious that Trap identifies certain attitudes in the player that he values.
Trap is putting a higher value on a players professional attitude and approach to the whole International set up. He has the right to select the players who he wants to work with.
No players has a right to a place by virtue of club form.

Trap keeps referring to these things since he took over, especially with Gibson, Whelan and Keogh and attitudes in general.

http://www.victorystore.com/signs/property_management/images/nodrinking-12.gif

[weldoninhio]

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?! He's the veteran of so many (succesfull) campaigns that he knows exactly what needs to be done to be a success. He's always worked this way, and it has always worked. Over 30 years. Its incredible that people would question him when he has proved time and time and time again that his methods work. I really don't believe that you think there was no improvement between a second string XI going down 3-2 to Poland, when you consider the depths we plummeted to against San Marino, Cyprus, Slovakia etc

Whelan has been good so far for us, and those belittling him as little more than a Stoke reserve are way off, he's done a fine job thus far. We're absolutely blessed to have him, I can't think of a realistically better alternative.

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.

2) He's always worked this way and it always worked?? I think if you ask any Italian about Trappatonis time in charge of them they'll dispute this.

3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.

4) Whelan hsa been good for us, but as with any player who is not playing regularly he is going to be struggling for match fitness and match sharpness. World cup qualifiers are not the time to be catching up on these.

[tetsujin1979]

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.
SuperLiga 04/05
Austrian Bundesliga 06/07


3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.and Steve Finnan and Steven Reid

[eirebhoy]

Benfica have only won the league once in the last 20 years and that was in Trap's only season there.

[weldoninhio]

SuperLiga 04/05
Austrian Bundesliga 06/07

and Steve Finnan and Steven Reid

Superliga is on par with the Scottish league and Austrian League is like the Eircom league.

Steven Reid is out long term, so i was not counting him and McShane/Finnan are much of a muchness.

[weldoninhio]

Benfica have only won the league once in the last 20 years and that was in Trap's only season there.

They came 2nd the two years before so it was hardly an amazing transformation. And he only lasted one year,

[tetsujin1979]

Superliga is on par with the Scottish league and Austrian League is like the Eircom league.How many Scottish teams have won the Champions League?

Steven Reid is out long term, so i was not counting himWhy didn't you say that so? Steven Reid is clearly in Trapattoni's preferred starting XI

McShane/Finnan are much of a muchness.McShane is a centre half playing at full back. Steve Finnan was one of the best full backs in the Premiership.

They came 2nd the two years before so it was hardly an amazing transformation. And he only lasted one year,
From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Trapattoni#Coach

He resigned after the 2005 season, saying he wanted to be closer to his family (in the north of Italy)

[Colbert Report]

Celtic have won it once and finished as runners-up once.

Steve Finnan was very clearly not one of the best full-backs in the Premiership. In his last three years at Liverpool he appeared in less than a third of their Premiership matches and in his last year made only eleven out of thirty eight possible appearances.

[tetsujin1979]

Celtic have won it once and finished as runners-up once.touché


Steve Finnan was very clearly not one of the best full-backs in the Premiership. In his last three years at Liverpool he appeared in less than a third of their Premiership matches and in his last year made only eleven out of thirty eight possible appearances.
Premiership Team of the Year 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Team_of_the_Year#Premiership_3

DF Steve Finnan Fulham
Also, he was injured for quite a bit of his final season at Fulham.

[Colbert Report]

2002? Stop living in the past man! It is almost 2009!

[Jicked]

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.

2) He's always worked this way and it always worked?? I think if you ask any Italian about Trappatonis time in charge of them they'll dispute this.

3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.

4) Whelan hsa been good for us, but as with any player who is not playing regularly he is going to be struggling for match fitness and match sharpness. World cup qualifiers are not the time to be catching up on these.


1) It is not irrelevant, at all. It's crazy to suggest that it is.
2) He doesn't have experience of winning a world cup, shock horror, but he does of how to go about a succesfull qualifying campaign.
3) Look at the side we had out in the second half when we were chasing the game.
4) But you admit Whelan has been good for us? So Trap should pick a lesser player, or one who goes against the system he wants us to play with, because he's played more games that season?

And I don't see how you can criticise his record, or belittle his achievements in Austria or Portugal.

[weldoninhio]

1) It is not irrelevant, at all. It's crazy to suggest that it is.
2) He doesn't have experience of winning a world cup, shock horror, but he does of how to go about a succesfull qualifying campaign.
3) Look at the side we had out in the second half when we were chasing the game.
4) But you admit Whelan has been good for us? So Trap should pick a lesser player, or one who goes against the system he wants us to play with, because he's played more games that season?

And I don't see how you can criticise his record, or belittle his achievements in Austria or Portugal.

1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??

2) He was effectively hounded out of the Italian job because of his teams dour, defensive and ineffective methods and his odd selection policies.

3) Call me crazy, but weren't we 2-0 down before any substitutions were made???

4) I never said that he should pick a lesser player, Carsley is a one example of a much better player, who is playing regularly, and would easily slot into the system.

If whelan and gibson were to get injured, what would be his plan B?? He doesn't go to games, so he can hardly say Player A is in good form with his club, or i liked the look of Player B in the games i saw him p;ay.

[Jicked]

1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??

2) He was effectively hounded out of the Italian job because of his teams dour, defensive and ineffective methods and his odd selection policies.

3) Call me crazy, but weren't we 2-0 down before any substitutions were made???

4) I never said that he should pick a lesser player, Carsley is a one example of a much better player, who is playing regularly, and would easily slot into the system.

If whelan and gibson were to get injured, what would be his plan B?? He doesn't go to games, so he can hardly say Player A is in good form with his club, or i liked the look of Player B in the games i saw him p;ay.

Your last point is ridiculous. Trap watches all pertinent games on DVD in Milan. Tell me, if you're saying Lee Carsley is playing well enough to be included despite his age, I presume you've been travelling to Birmingham week after week to see this?
You bemoan Trap for only watching players on tape, yet then complain about his team selection based on your superior knowledge from watching players on tape (and I'd love to hear how many games you've seen Carsley play this year). Plus Trap works hard with the players in training, has tried out many different players and combinations in friendlys and even goes to the hassle or organising a B international to take further look at them.

Can you really not see how his past is relevant? He's been through all of this before, he's been through every scenario possible. If we're chasing a game, closing one out, playing with 10 men, playing against 10 men, he has done it all before at the highest level and so will know exactly how we should adapt and play. That and his knowledge of working with different players means we should trust his judgement too.

I will call you crazy if you've the knives out for Trap on the back of a friendly defeat, with a weakened side and despite the fact we created more than enough chances to win the game.

[Colbert Report]

Your last point is ridiculous. Trap watches all pertinent games on DVD in Milan. Tell me, if you're saying Lee Carsley is playing well enough to be included despite his age, I presume you've been travelling to Birmingham week after week to see this?
You bemoan Trap for only watching players on tape, yet then complain about his team selection based on your superior knowledge from watching players on tape (and I'd love to hear how many games you've seen Carsley play this year). Plus Trap works hard with the players in training, has tried out many different players and combinations in friendlys and even goes to the hassle or organising a B international to take further look at them.

Can you really not see how his past is relevant? He's been through all of this before, he's been through every scenario possible. If we're chasing a game, closing one out, playing with 10 men, playing against 10 men, he has done it all before at the highest level and so will know exactly how we should adapt and play. That and his knowledge of working with different players means we should trust his judgement too.

I will call you crazy if you've the knives out for Trap on the back of a friendly defeat, with a weakened side and despite the fact we created more than enough chances to win the game.

Carsley is playing ninety minutes a match for the top team in the Championship. Good enough for me, as Glen Whelan and Darron Gibson haven't played a full league match for their clubs since opening day of the season.

Sorry mate, that was not a weakened side. It was our best team available bar McGeady and Keane. Steven Reid and Steve Finnan probably won't play another match for us until September 2009. Keogh was in for McGeady and Folan in for Keane. McShane will likely be our starting right-back in place of Finnan for the next few qualifiers. Hardly a weakened team when you consider that our first choice eleven are almost never all fit at the same time. When was the last time Trap's first choice eleven have actually all started the same match? By that I mean the following team:

Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Shea-Kilbane
McGeady-S.Reid-Whelan-Duff
Keane-Doyle

I doubt this team will take the field to start any match, competitive or not, at any time in the future. By this I mean you'll always have two or three injuries to deal with. Say Whelan or Gibson were to get injured? Who would go start in their place? Carsley fits Trap's system perfectly as an uncreative, tough-tackling physical presence in the middle of the park. Why discriminate against him on the basis of his age? He plays alot more first team football than Gibson, Welan, Steven Reid, Andy Reid, AND Keith Fahey combined.

[Qwerty]

1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??



Ciaran II

[chelsealinz]

Austrian League is much higher than Eircom league, Sturm Graz in champions league. Trap won the league in Austria but never qualified for the champions league.

K

[mypost]

Just a point on Andy Maradona, who should be an automatic starter for Ireland apparantly:

Sunderland 1-4 Bolton

He started and was subbed after 63 minutes. :cool:

[irishfan86]

Just a point on Andy Maradona, who should be an automatic starter for Ireland apparantly:

Sunderland 1-4 Bolton

He started and was subbed after 63 minutes. :cool:

He played as a wide player in a 4-4-2.

If you want to blame the wide players for the concession of 4 goals, you know nothing about football, end of.

[mypost]

Couldn't care less what position he played, it's not the point.

If he's subbed after an hour, in a team that's getting beat 4 by the likes of Bolton at home, he's not currently entitled to a guaranteed start at international level.

[mackannovic]

Here, here!
Can't see why a successful Italian coaching legend is overlooking a slow, one-footed, unfit,injury prone centre midfielder who rarely plays there at club level and who can't tackle or win a header. Surely they're all the ingredients you'd want in a midfielder??

[irishfan86]

I'm not advocating for us to make him an automatic starter, but he should definitely be in the squad.

[DeLorean]

I think I started this whole 'Trapp's achievement in the past being irrelevant' thing before it spiralled out of control, and I'd just like to clear up what I was saying. All I was trying t get across was that come October, if we're 3rd in the Group with Gibson and Whelan having started every qualifier the guns will be out and what he did in the past becomes irrelevant as far as Ireland are concerned. Of course what he has done in the past in completely relevant in relation to him knowing how to handle different situations and having a good idea how to qualify for major tournaments.

Andy Reid was very poor for Sunderland at the wkd and his substitution came as no surprise on the hour. The previous match against West Ham I thought he was their best player and should have played the full 90. It was my first time seeing Carsley this season also and I thought he was very good in a difficult match for Birmingham. In one way he's getting more of a raw deal than AReid as he would fit into the "system" quite easily. He didn't look anything like his 34 years at Wolves anyway and by all accounts seems to be playing to that standard every week.

[mypost]

Andy Reid was very poor for Sunderland at the wkd and his substitution came as no surprise on the hour. The previous match against West Ham I thought he was their best player and should have played the full 90.

This sums up my point about him been an enigma. You don't know what player you're going to get from one game to the next. But if he's not up to scratch against the likes of Bolton, then Trappattoni is justified for not picking him.

[back of the net]

ultimately for me, reids problem is that he plays is under a club manager whose tactically nieve at times and this was shown yet again on saturday

[SkStu]

If he's subbed after an hour, in a team that's getting beat 4 by the likes of Bolton at home, he's not currently entitled to a guaranteed start at international level.

whil i fully agree with you mypost, and i dont know your position on the following - this simply begs the question as to what guarantees Kilbane, Whelan and Gibson a start in the national team... such inconsistency in rationale from "The Trap" just beggars belief... :confused::confused:

[third policeman]

This sums up my point about him been an enigma. You don't know what player you're going to get from one game to the next. But if he's not up to scratch against the likes of Bolton, then Trappattoni is justified for not picking him.


In Reid's defence he is at least seeing some first team action, and more than Miller who is in the squad. Whelan and Gibson are not getting any first team football so why is Trapp justified picking them?

[eirebhoy]

This sums up my point about him been an enigma. You don't know what player you're going to get from one game to the next. But if he's not up to scratch against the likes of Bolton, then Trappattoni is justified for not picking him.
He was consistently brilliant for them last season. Saturday was probably his worst performance since he joined but he worked hard and none of the midfielders were any better.

I think it's probably time for Reid's agent to get him a move out of Britain. Not his type of game at all the Bolton one.

[NeilMcD]

Not sure if his drinking and guitar playing would go down well in the continent though.

[DotTV]

whil i fully agree with you mypost, and i dont know your position on the following - this simply begs the question as to what guarantees Kilbane, Whelan and Gibson a start in the national team... such inconsistency in rationale from "The Trap" just beggars belief... :confused::confused:


But who is there to replace them? Apart from carsely none are playing regular. andrews is the only one that comes close and he got a run out.

[mackannovic]

Clearly Traps not the only one who has an issue with Reid. Keane hardly put up a resounding case for his iunclusion when he was asked, he simply said he was laid down a "challenge" by Trap as Keane had done so at Sunderland for him so clearly Keano isn't too impressed by him lately either.

[third policeman]

But who is there to replace them? Apart from carsely none are playing regular. andrews is the only one that comes close and he got a run out.

Garvan, McCann, O'Toole are all playing regularly and well in The Championship as is McPhail. O'Shea gets more game time in midfield for UTD than he does at CB, and Delap has started more Premiership games this season than any other Irish midfielder. Personally I would not even regard Whelan, Gibson, Miller and Andrews as worthy of incusion in the squad never mind the starting 11.

[DotTV]

Thats my point though. We're talking about replacing premiership squad members with championship starters. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just saying there's not much difference between them. garvan and o'toole are unproven at international level so when does he fit them in? O'shea has been playing well for us at CB and we don't have much cover there either. Delap has had his chances.
There really arent that many great options out there

[DeLorean]

Thats my point though. We're talking about replacing premiership squad members with championship starters. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just saying there's not much difference between them. garvan and o'toole are unproven at international level so when does he fit them in? O'shea has been playing well for us at CB and we don't have much cover there either. Delap has had his chances.
There really arent that many great options out there

The options aren't great but I think they are no worse than what he has done so far. Gibson was just drafted in for a qualifier so why can't these other guys. Nothing to lose going on Gibsons form so far. Personally I would prefer Championship starters any day of the week other than fellas warming the bench at thier Premier League clubs. I don't mind the likes of O'Shea who plays fairly often for United and is established at international level but Whelan and Gibson get no playing time at all. Whelan doesn't even get used off the bench for Stoke, that's absolutely scandalous bad.

[DotTV]

Personally I'd like to see Carsley playing but otherwise you're replacing one liability with another. We're seriously weak in centre mid.

[eirebhoy]

Thats my point though. We're talking about replacing premiership squad members with championship starters. I'm not saying one is better than the other, just saying there's not much difference between them. garvan and o'toole are unproven at international level so when does he fit them in? O'shea has been playing well for us at CB and we don't have much cover there either. Delap has had his chances.
There really arent that many great options out there
I'd say if Garvan, Whelan, Gibson, Miller and Andrews were put up for sale tomorrow Garvan would be sold at the highest price to the best team. Probably not really fair though because Garvan has plenty of years ahead of him. But, I feel if all those players were played in the same team it'd be Garvan dictating the play.

[DotTV]

That may be the case. Trap is aware of Garvan, so his chance may come. Looks like a good prospect so far. I think Gibson could be a great player for us....but only in 3 years time or so. he's still developing. he's been out on loan in belgium and he's been a bit unsettled over the last couple of years. One thing's for sure he was seriously rated coming through the youth ranks up north, hence the massive furore when he declared for the side of all things green and good.

[irishfan86]

That may be the case. Trap is aware of Garvan, so his chance may come.

The problem is that Garvan is again one of these attacking central players - the kind Trap doesn't really trust.

In that friendly against Nottingham Forest, Garvan was thrown on as one of the wide attacking players, which doesn't suit him at all...

I think Garvan is going to be a quality player, but I don't think it will be with Ireland while Trap is around.

[paul_oshea]

I do also think Gibson will be a good player. I think he is wise staying around United for a while, ferguson is loyal to those like fletcher and oshea that stick by him and stay with United. IF uniteds cup run continues tonight hopefully he will get some more time.

Great to see ferguson give him 15 minutes against villareal. He obviouslly sees something in the lad.

[CIT til i die]

Would any other country in the world start two centre midfielders in a world cup qualifying game who play in their clubs reserves. What is going on. Surely you wouldnt even have these players in your squad, never find give them a starting eleven spot.

Owen Garven is in brilliant form for Ipswich this year and deserves a chance. At least he plays week in week out in a competitive league. Andy reid is also a must. Most creative and talented player in Ireland and he isnt in the squad anymore.. sort it out Gio

[corkboy360]

This team will never perform even if Jose Mourinho or Alex Ferguson or whoever else were in charge. Now if we had some sort of Adolf Hitlor you might get something out of them.

[mypost]

Trap was watching our players at two games in England on Saturday. The early ko in the PL, and the late ko in the Championship, so that's that issue cleared up.

[pateen]

Trap was watching our players at two games in England on Saturday. The early ko in the PL, and the late ko in the Championship, so that's that issue cleared up.


Just saw that in another post about Martin Rowlands. But it said Trap watched Ipswich v Norwich on Sunday. That would include
Bruce,
Garvan,
Walters,
Doherty,
Hoolahan

and QPR vs WOLVES That includes:
Delaney,
Mahon,
Rowlands,
Foley,
Ward,
Keogh

That 11 Irish which is not bad.

Anyone know what the premiership game was?

[Closed Account]

Just saw that in another post about Martin Rowlands. But it said Trap watched Ipswich v Norwich on Sunday. That would include
Bruce,
Garvan,
Walters,
Doherty,
Hoolahan

and QPR vs WOLVES That includes:
Delaney,
Mahon, ?????????
Rowlands,
Foley,
Ward,
Keogh

That 11 Irish which is not bad.

Anyone know what the premiership game was?
If it was the early Premier game then he saw
Man City: Dunne, Ireland
QPR: Delaney, Rowlands
Wolves: Foley, Ward, Keogh
Norwich: Doherty, Bell, Hoolahan
Ipswich: Bruce, Norris, Garvan, Walters

Foley-Dunne-Bruce-Delaney
------Doherty------Ward

Norris-Ireland-Rowlands-Bell
------Garvan

Hoolahan-----
----------Walters(Keogh)

He watched players in nearly every position(goalkeeper), including Hoolahan playing behind a lone striker, an Andy Reid role if you like.
A few players out of position though, Norris isn't a right winger, Bell is. Walters has played better right wing this season, Keogh has played there too.