Trapattoni - Questionable?

[FarBeag]

I agree with everything that Third- Policeman and SkStu say in their posts. Until Trap gets up of his lazy arse and watches players like Garvan, O' Toole, McGann, A Reid etc play for their clubs, make his assessment on their ability then I have no faith in his ability as a manager. I dont care about his past, i care about how he goes about getting us to the world cup. This is not a difficult group and is certainly easier that the one we ended up with for that last EC .

He gets paid enough to do this job. All he appears to to is just turn up in Dublin a few days before a match and go with the players that are there. He can play the formation he thinks will take us to the WC but there are better players out there than some of the players he his using to achieve that goal.

[FarBeag]

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.


Exactly. If we had to play England even with the team they put out against Germany we would be hammered.

[Irish_Praha]

Exactly. If we had to play England even with the team they put out against Germany we would be hammered.

What has playing England got to do with anything? :confused:

[FarBeag]

What has playing England got to do with anything? :confused:

Sorry its off topic. Some people were suggesting(in another thread) that we may play them as one of our first games when the new lansdowne opens.

[Irish_Praha]

Sorry its off topic. Some people were suggesting(in another thread) that we may play them as one of our first games when the new lansdowne opens.

OK no problem. My point would be that if we don't improve quickly we will struggle to compete against any half-decent team. I am still happy that we have Trap as manager but I would also voice some concern over some of his methods, as outlines above. Here's hoping that it all falls into places on time and that we make it to SA.

I also think it would make sense for the FAI to start sounding out a replacement for Trap. They already know that he will at most be Ireland manager until Summer 2010. It would be good if they could announce his replacement before he is even gone.

[Jicked]

I also think it would make sense for the FAI to start sounding out a replacement for Trap. They already know that he will at most be Ireland manager until Summer 2010. It would be good if they could announce his replacement before he is even gone.

What on earth makes you think that? I cant think of why that would help, and almost every single example shows naming a successor whilst the incumbent is in office then it leads to very bad results.

As for those questioning Trap, as someone mentioned earlier I don't know how these people know anything about football. I find it hard to fathom that people are calling one of the greatest managers in the history of football a disgrace because he picks McShane over Foley as our second choice right back, or that he gives Andy Keogh 60 minutes on the wing to have a look at him. Some people really just seem clueless.

[Manc Irish Wolf]

A great debate and some very good points from all sides. Can't quite understand the objection of questioning Trap from some as surely the only way that we will fully maximise our potential and become world-beaters (which has to be the aim of any international team) is highlighting our weakneses and addressing them. As much of a legend that Trap is and however much he has our support, he is not flawless and deserves to be questioned as much as the next man if he is potentially jeapordising our qualification chances and long term development.

Personal issues are:

1) Strategy to fit the team or a team to fit the strategy - We know that he has a defensive pedigree playing essentially a back 6 with 2 sitting defenders and a front 4, however is this really the best strategy in light of our current players? (Of the back 6 only 2 players are first team regulars - this does not say a lot about the players availaible for the basis of such a strategy), the modern game (Would we not be better suited to a 4-3-3 with a defensive midfielder sat with more attacking fullbacks which has been adopted by Holland and Croatia recently) and the national mentality (this could be questionned as romantacism, however I personally think that there is something in a country's mindset which transaltes to the style of a country's play - The Italians are defensive, German's efficient, Brazillian's attacking and we play a more fighting style which is naturally to attack the opposition irrespective of size - this doesn't fit with a defensive style of play - would we not be better off breeding an attack minded attitude which when combined with good passing and self-belief can translate into the relative success we saw in 88, 90 and 02?.

2) Static Full Backs - Since Cafu all the top teams are playing with attack minded fullbacks as an additional prong to their attack. McShane and Kilbane are playing relatively static at the moment and seem to be pre-occupied with the rigidity of the roles and the areas that they are meant to be patrolling. With two sitting midfielders, surely we need another attacking element, especially as good ball playing full-backs are increasingly required to start attacks in the modern passing football game. Appreciate that I sound like a stuck record, however am convinced that Foley and Ward as our fullbacks would do a better job both defensively and in driving us forward into attack.

3) Centre Midfield - Obviously a well-documented issue, however can't understand the reluctance to try out Garvan, O Toole or McCann. All three look the perfect model for the modern all-round centre-midfielders with Garvan and O'Toole looking brilliant against England at St Marys. If Trap does not feel that we have enough quality of player in this position, why not change the system and have Carlsey sitting so that we work with a tight back 5 allowing a more attacking midfielder like Reid to play, with duff and keane playing freer roles off Doyle in a 4-3-3.

4) Future development - There does appear to be little incentive for Trap to develop players for the future which is a worry. Naming and developing a sucessor internally would at least allow us to build a liverpool boot-room mentality and give us some consistency. Trap definitely needs to start justifying his wages and getting himself over to more matches to see these players for himself.

All in all, things do look good for the future, especially with the young talent we have comng through. Losing like we did on Wednesday is probably beneficial on the whole, as hopefully Trap will recognise the problems and appreciate the contribution that young talent with a fighting mentality from the lower leagues can make.

[irishfan86]

I don't think Trap should be criticized for not giving young players a chance per se, but rather for giving the wrong young players a chance!

Trap has faith in McShane (age 22), Darron Gibson (age 21), Andy Keogh (age 22), McGeady (age 22).

I don't look at his team and say, "I wish he brought through more youth."

I look at it and say, "why is he calling up these players (regardless of what age they are), when there are better players available?!"

[Splurge]

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.

Staunton was probably at 5 or 6 /weekend, didnt do him any good.

[danonion]

People who are Questioning Trappattoni havn't a clue about football to be honest.


This is a good debate and I probably shouldn't be picking on individual posts, but this kind of throwaway comment does not add anything to the discussion.

Why should we, the followers of the Ireland side have blind faith in the man in charge? I think people who don't question some of the obviously strange and substandard features of Trappattoni's reign "havn't a clue about football to be honest"

Yes we have 7 points from 9, but look at how fortuitous 4 of those points are .. Glenn Whelan scored a fluke goal against Georgia. If it wasn't for that goal which realistically belongs more on a goalkeeping bloobers real than anything else, Georgia would have scored an equaliser, rather than a late consolation. Against Cyprus, our central midfield (one of the things these posters who "havn't a clue about football" are criticizing) was SHOCKING.
We rode our luck and that game could have (and perhaps should have been) a draw. With those two games we were lucky to have 6 pointsl we could have easily had 2.

So bearing that in mind, how is it ignorant to question Trappattoni's methods?

Why is it wrong to question the fact that he doesn't go to football matches to see the players? If we are to avoid bizarre selection, he needs to go to games. Making that assertion is not evidence of one not having "a clue about football"

[Jicked]

The game against Cyprus clearly shouldn't have been a draw, we were worthy winners and perhaps he meant some people don't know anything about football if they thought otherwise.

As for questioning Traps methods, it is absolutely ridiculous to badmouth him because of the amount of games he goes to. Everyone has a method, a system, a way of working (except a Mr Staunton). Trapattoni's has seen him be one of the worlds most succesfull managers of all time. Now we have him at Ireland and people whinge because he doesn't watch every game in person. How big a difference would it really make if he went to games??

[Colbert Report]

The game against Cyprus clearly shouldn't have been a draw, we were worthy winners and perhaps he meant some people don't know anything about football if they thought otherwise.
As for questioning Traps methods, it is absolutely ridiculous to badmouth him because of the amount of games he goes to. Everyone has a method, a system, a way of working (except a Mr Staunton). Trapattoni's has seen him be one of the worlds most succesfull managers of all time. Now we have him at Ireland and people whinge because he doesn't watch every game in person. How big a difference would it really make if he went to games??


I watch every Ireland match and usually 5-6 Premiership matches every weekend. I guess I don't know much about football because I thought a draw would have been a much fairer result. Cyprus were all over us for most of the second half and we were very lucky to get three points in my humble opinion.

[Jicked]

All over us? Much better than us? Please, they had one scrambled opportunity that wasn't on target, and we had a few chances to score at the other end. it was nervy yes, but only because it was Ireland and we're used to watching us throw away those games.

Besides, what of the fact that Cyprus had taken Italy apart previously? Their having one big chance against us doesn't look as bad when you consider they repeatedly took Italy apart.

[Noelys Guitar]

All over us? Much better than us? Please, they had one scrambled opportunity that wasn't on target, and we had a few chances to score at the other end. it was nervy yes, but only because it was Ireland and we're used to watching us throw away those games.

Besides, what of the fact that Cyprus had taken Italy apart previously? Their having one big chance against us doesn't look as bad when you consider they repeatedly took Italy apart.

Here is the report on the game from the FIFA site

The victory kept the Irish second in the pool behind Italy, and went some way towards erasing the memory of their 5-2 defeat by Cyprus in UEFA EURO 2008 qualifying.

However, Cyprus dominated the play for long periods after half-time, and squandered a great chance to equalise when Dimitris Christofi blasted over the bar from five metres out after goalkeeper Shay Given blocked a shot from Michael Constantinou.

[weldoninhio]

Lads
I know some are worried and I can see why , but Trap is an A1 class manager just keep behind him and everything will be fine in the end and we can all look forward to a trip to SA on the back of him .

We have to back him ...........

Trap was an A1 class manager, in the 70s and 80s. Now he is an old man in semi-retirement. We will not get anywhere near to SA with him and that is the stone cold truth. With the players we have available we could do a decent job and push for qualification or even a playoff place, but with the players being picked we will be lucky to get third.

[livehead1]

With the players we have available we could do a decent job and push for qualification or even a playoff place, but with the players being picked we will be lucky to get third.
Yeh cos we got so close to qualifying the last time with different players selected :rolleyes:

How pessimistic are Irish people? There are some negatives in the last 6months but come on, just go with the flow at the moment. We're doing OK in the group and have a reasonbly settled side that has great respect for the manager. Just let them get on with it.

[tetsujin1979]

Trap was an A1 class manager, in the 70s and 80s.
Yeah, all he won in the 90's and 00's was the UEFA Cup twice (90/91 and 92/93), the Bundesliga (96/97), the German Cup (97/98), the SuperLiga (04/05) and the Austrian Bundesliga (06/07)
:rolleyes:

[John83]

Yeah, all he won in the 90's and 00's was the UEFA Cup twice (90/91 and 92/93), the Bundesliga (96/97), the German Cup (97/98), the SuperLiga (04/05) and the Austrian Bundesliga (06/07)
:rolleyes:
It's such a pity that he can no longer judge a player when he sees one because he's gone completely blind, as indeed you would if you'd seen as many naked footballers in dressing rooms as he has over the years. No wonder Jack and Mick are thinking about managing a ladies team. And if only his tactical systems weren't so out of date - no one plays defensively like that any more, certainly not world class managers like Mourinho and Capello and half the managers in Serie A. It's such a pity too that he's surrounded by idiots like the former Italy U21 manager and the head of Arsenal's youth development programme.

I think we should put him down before he kills himself getting out of the bathtub, taking a valuable bar of soap with him. We should install some assclown from the internet as manager, so we can play Steven Ireland and Andy Reid and return to the glory days of beating Wales and a small mountain in Italy.

[paul_oshea]

The only problem I have with weldoniniho, because everyone has a right to their opinion, is he wont post often, and in 5 months if we are doing well and sitting pretty we will never here from him again.

[carloz]

Trap was an A1 class manager, in the 70s and 80s. Now he is an old man in semi-retirement. We will not get anywhere near to SA with him and that is the stone cold truth. With the players we have available we could do a decent job and push for qualification or even a playoff place, but with the players being picked we will be lucky to get third.
id take a look at our group if iwas you mate. Our next game is Georgia at home, in all honesty a match we should win. That puts us 7 points ahead of third placed Bulgaria. So realisitcally we should be 7 points ahead of Bulgaria when they come to Croker. The turmoil they are in at the moment it is hard to see them beating us. Should we beat Georgia and not lose to Bulgaria then it would quite frankly be embarressing if we dont get second place.

[paul_oshea]

id take a look at our group if iwas you mate. Our next game is Georgia at home, in all honesty a match we should win. That puts us 7 points ahead of third placed Bulgaria. So realisitcally we should be 7 points ahead of Bulgaria when they come to Croker. The turmoil they are in at the moment it is hard to see them beating us. Should we beat Georgia and not lose to Bulgaria then it would quite frankly be embarressing if we dont get second place.

It wouldn't be we started off better this time because we had hte luck of the draw and the easier games at home. We got a point away from home like we did against slovakia who are probably on an equal with montenegro when the campaign ends. IF we lose two away games to bulgaria and italy it will not quite frankly be embarassing if didnt qualify, but a reality that we might not actually qualify. 2 games will make all the difference.

I don't see how people seem to think that if you start off with wins against the two lesser nations in a group you are going to qualify. Just think back to NI when they started off brilliantly but then had the harder games to come and got found out. At the end of the day you can only judge at the end of the group, getting points against weaker nations at the start counts for NOTHING as its expected, no matter when you come up against them.

[ifk101]

Just think back to NI when they started off brilliantly but then had the harder games to come and got found out.

NI's qualification hopes ultimately died at the hands of Latvia and Iceland. BTW they lost their opening game of that campaign 3-0 at home to Iceland.

Anyways, of tradition, we are a very weak away side. Considering Bulgaria took 2 points from their 2 away games against Georgia and Montenegro, I'm happy we have 4 points from those 2 games. But there's a long way to go yet as you say.

[NeilMcD]

Bulgaria played Georgia away and drew and we won that match so we are 2 points up there. We are equal on the Montenegro away game as we both took a point there.

We have beaten Cyprus at home so they now have to match that and we have to match them drawing against Italy at home. If we beat Georgia at home they will have to match that also.

At the moment we are 2 points ahead of Bulgaria in my view.

[paul_oshea]

NI's qualification hopes ultimately died at the hands of Latvia and Iceland. BTW they lost their opening game of that campaign 3-0 at home to Iceland.

Anyways, of tradition, we are a very weak away side. Considering Bulgaria took 2 points from their 2 away games against Georgia and Montenegro, I'm happy we have 4 points from those 2 games. But there's a long way to go yet as you say.

Ya but the following week they bounced back with a great victory. Latvia also qualified for the euros didnt they the campaign before, so they wouldn't have been that poor.Anyway I spose my point was more geared towards the good start being a false hope/dawn.

We played georgia in what was a very bad time for htem and a game away from their home with about 3000 irish fans to 300 georgian fans. We are 2 points better off only because of circumstance I beleive.

Bulgaria also managed to score twice against Montenegro away from home. Scoring away from home has been a big problem for us, hence we never win :D

[paul_oshea]

At the moment we are 2 points ahead of Bulgaria in my view.

Yes exactly Neil, and thats only because of circumstance.

In the same way people are jumping on Trap after the poland result, people jumped on saying how great a return 7 from 9 etc etc was. They were relatively easy games in teh group and I explained them above. If we came away with 7 from 9 from bulgaria twice and italy once then we could start jumping up and down celebrating. However this isn't going to happen. We have done absoloutely nothing yet(given the opposition i mean), and very little more than we did with Staunton, bar a terrible result against cyprus away.

[ifk101]

It doesn't matter paul_oshea. It's 3 points in the bag. Sometimes you can be fortunate to play a side depleted by injuries. We benefitted from a FIFA ruling but we still had to go out and win the game. Don't particularly remember the game but besides from a free header and the goal at the end, I don't think they caused us much trouble. In other words it was a competent and organised display by our boys away from home.

[Brendan 82]

Yes exactly Neil, and thats only because of circumstance.

In the same way people are jumping on Trap after the poland result, people jumped on saying how great a return 7 from 9 etc etc was. They were relatively easy games in teh group and I explained them above. If we came away with 7 from 9 from bulgaria twice and italy once then we could start jumping up and down celebrating. However this isn't going to happen. We have done absoloutely nothing yet(given the opposition i mean), and very little more than we did with Staunton, bar a terrible result against cyprus away.

Completely underestimating Cyprus and Montenegro. The only bad side in this group is Georgia

[paul_oshea]

Completely underestimating Cyprus and Montenegro. The only bad side in this group is Georgia

Likewise I think you are underestimating georgia, they are a tough team to beat at HOME. I think montenegro are on a par with the likes of macedonia/slovakia etc. As the group games go on I beleive they will feature less(unless of course bulgaria implode).

Yes fortune and circumstance do play a huge part ifk, and they could yet play an even bigger part for us, where it becomes only a 2 horse race due to bulgaria going through turmoil. Hopefully that is the case, but hopefully we prove we can play as well.

[DeLorean]

Bulgaria played Georgia away and drew and we won that match so we are 2 points up there. We are equal on the Montenegro away game as we both took a point there.

We have beaten Cyprus at home so they now have to match that and we have to match them drawing against Italy at home. If we beat Georgia at home they will have to match that also.

At the moment we are 2 points ahead of Bulgaria in my view.

I like this post. It makes far more sense looking at it this way than having a glance at a very misleading group table. Having said that psychology is a big thing in football and it might serve us well running into an early lead. It puts massive pressure on Bulgaria not to slip up again and gets us into a winning habbit. True though, the only difference really between ourselves and Bulgaria so far is the 3 points we picked up in an empty stadium in Germany compared to their 1 point in the far more difficult Tblisi, we'll take what we can get though.

[paul_oshea]

I like this post. It makes far more sense looking at it this way than having a glance at a very misleading group table. Having said that psychology is a big thing in football and it might serve us well running into an early lead. It puts massive pressure on Bulgaria not to slip up again and gets us into a winning habbit. True though, the only difference really between ourselves and Bulgaria so far is the 3 points we picked up in an empty stadium in Germany compared to their 1 point in the far more difficult Tblisi, we'll take what we can get though.

Is that a monks one or an acquired behavior pattern regularly followed until it has become almost involuntary? ;)

[paul_oshea]

I like this post. It makes far more sense looking at it this way than having a glance at a very misleading group table. Having said that psychology is a big thing in football and it might serve us well running into an early lead. It puts massive pressure on Bulgaria not to slip up again and gets us into a winning habbit. True though, the only difference really between ourselves and Bulgaria so far is the 3 points we picked up in an empty stadium in Germany compared to their 1 point in the far more difficult Tblisi, we'll take what we can get though.

Thats what i said not what neil said.

[DeLorean]

Thats what i said not what neil said.

I may have been guilty of not reading every post in the thread!!! sensible point though regardless of who said it first.

[DeLorean]

Is that a monks one or an acquired behavior pattern regularly followed until it has become almost involuntary? ;)

Not sure what u mean?

[Irish_Praha]

I agree that our position in the table only looks so healthy because we have only played the lower seeded teams until now. However, it's good to have the points on the board and get off to a good start. This puts all the pressure on Bulgaria to pick up a some wins in their next few games.

Also, if I was to choose the 5 easiest games on paper from the possible 10 games I would choose the first 4 games as they are plus Montenegro at home instead of Bulgaria. At the start of the campaign I thought this easier start was perfect because it would give Trap the time to get to know the players and let the team take its shape before the serious business of playing Bulgaria, Italy and Cyprus away. Stephen Reid getting injured has put a spanner in the works and some of Traps decisions have been strange but hopefully they can keep picking up points and start improving their performances because they will need it for these three key games.

[DeLorean]

Exactly. It's ideal having the easy matches first once you get the points on the board. A win against Georgia at home is vital. Anthing less than 10 points from the 12 available would be borderline crap. The next 5 matches are going to be hugely difficult with Bulgaria/Italy providing the opposition in 4 out of the 5 and Cyprus away is arguably more difficult than Bulgaria at home.

[Qwerty]

I'm just wondering am I the only one who thinks Trapattoni isn't what he's cracked up to be? His decisions so far have been very strange and mind boggling at times. His football is negative and team/squad selections more than questionable. Andy Reid/Joey O'Brien aside, the fact that Darron Gibson is starting is an absolute joke. Glenn Whelan is not international standard. Andy Keogh is poor and again, not good enough to be anywhere near the team. Far better players are being left out of not only the team, but the squad.

Yes we have 7 from 9 points but all against C/D class international sides. I'd love to be enthusiastic about the guy but I've been around the game long enough to see through the cracks. He's no Jack Charlton I'm afraid. I think our current group position is false and going on current team selections and performances, I fully expect us to be exposed next season by Bulgaria and Italy. I cannot see this side getting results there, or in Cyprus for that matter.

So far I don't rate the guy and I fear that the stuff that the Redbull Salzburg fans were saying about him are beginning to ring through. Anyone else worried about some of the stuff that's going on?

I think the only really questionable decision has been that to exclude Lee Carsley given the other ( lack of ) options available.

Besides that our table position is accuarate, we've won 2 and drawn 1. Bulgaria have drawn 3. They didn't beat Georgia we did ( thank you FAI :D ). They couldn't do any better against Montenegro that we did. They clearly settled for a point at home to Italy before the first kick. Bulgaria are in crisis mode and hopefully they'll keep their coach and contnue that crisis a bit longer.

We usually play better against better teams so I'm not afraid of Italy or Bulgaria. We have a real shot this time around.



Our away game to Cyprus could be out hardest...

[paul_oshea]

Gibson came on for the last 15 minutes including injury time today, he was decent in fairness whenever he got the ball. Great to see he looks up and tries to hit a pass on the ground no matter what the distance.

[NeilMcD]

Thats what i said not what neil said.

I make good points too, listen to me

[DeLorean]

I make good points too, listen to me

Now Neil, Mr O'Shea did make the point first and it was outrageous behaviour on my part to suggest otherwise!!!;)

[irishultra]

I think the only really questionable decision has been that to exclude Lee Carsley given the other ( lack of ) options available.

Besides that our table position is accuarate, we've won 2 and drawn 1. Bulgaria have drawn 3. They didn't beat Georgia we did ( thank you FAI :D ). They couldn't do any better against Montenegro that we did. They clearly settled for a point at home to Italy before the first kick. Bulgaria are in crisis mode and hopefully they'll keep their coach and contnue that crisis a bit longer.

We usually play better against better teams so I'm not afraid of Italy or Bulgaria. We have a real shot this time around.



Our away game to Cyprus could be out hardest...

do we?

[mypost]

Last year, Andy Maradona was playing (poorly) for Ireland, under a poor manager. But, at least said manager went to watch his players' matches. It led to him getting sacked 2 years early, and finishing 10 points behind the qualifiers. This year, we're 3 points behind the group leaders with a game in hand.

Even Brazilians question the selections of the Brazil coach. Trappattoni has won everything in football, Andy Maradona has won f'all, whilst playing for the glamourous Charlton Athletic, the world beaters of Nottingham Forest, and is currently struggling to get into a mediocre Sunderland side. Go figure. :rolleyes:

[Qwerty]

do we?

I think we do, not many wins mind you but if Bulgaria lose points to bottom seeds then draws will probably suffice. It is early days, we have a 2 pt advantage over Bulgaria right now IMO, it's not much but they are not a happy outfit.

[paul_oshea]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

[DeLorean]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

Stating the obvious but it would completely depend on who we get.

[Qwerty]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

Our record is poor in the play-offs results-wise but apart from Holland all the rest were pretty close. It all depends on who we get and how the team develops between now and then, if there is a then. Trapp appears to have stopped the slide but now we have to improve and build on what we have done.

[Jicked]

Yes exactly Neil, and thats only because of circumstance.

In the same way people are jumping on Trap after the poland result, people jumped on saying how great a return 7 from 9 etc etc was. They were relatively easy games in teh group and I explained them above. If we came away with 7 from 9 from bulgaria twice and italy once then we could start jumping up and down celebrating. However this isn't going to happen. We have done absoloutely nothing yet(given the opposition i mean), and very little more than we did with Staunton, bar a terrible result against cyprus away.

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

[DeLorean]

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

Because a lad might have a different opinion to your all knowing self doesn't necessarily mean they don't watch any football and don't have a clue. Maybe some of us are being a bit harsh on Trapp but basically the jury's out for me. What he's done in the game up to now is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, that meant a lot when we made the appointment first but it rests there. It's all about gettin it right for Ireland now. If Staunton was judged on the Czech Rep and Slovakia home matches in the last campaign he would have looked to be doing a decent job, of course this would have been completely deluded but if you take Trapps first 2 qualifiers I'd say fair enough we're going in the right direction but if I was to just take the last 2, Cyprus in particular and Poland then I would find it difficult to see any improvement at all.

[irishfan86]

I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.

Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?

Do I have to like everything he's done?

I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.

There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:

-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).

There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.

Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.

[Jicked]

Because a lad might have a different opinion to your all knowing self doesn't necessarily mean they don't watch any football and don't have a clue. Maybe some of us are being a bit harsh on Trapp but basically the jury's out for me. What he's done in the game up to now is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, that meant a lot when we made the appointment first but it rests there. It's all about gettin it right for Ireland now. If Staunton was judged on the Czech Rep and Slovakia home matches in the last campaign he would have looked to be doing a decent job, of course this would have been completely deluded but if you take Trapps first 2 qualifiers I'd say fair enough we're going in the right direction but if I was to just take the last 2, Cyprus in particular and Poland then I would find it difficult to see any improvement at all.

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?! If we're to make it to the WC we'll need every drop of experience that a wily campaigner like him has accrued. He's the veteran of so many (succesfull) campaigns that he knows exactly what needs to be done to be a success. He's always worked this way, and it has always worked. Over 30 years. Its incredible that people would question him when he has proved time and time and time again that his methods work. I really don't believe that you think there was no improvement between a second string XI going down 3-2 to Poland, when you consider the depths we plummeted to against San Marino, Cyprus, Slovakia etc



I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.

Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?

Do I have to like everything he's done?

I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.

There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:

-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).

There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.

Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.


I too am a fan of his system, it's one that will get the best out of resources, making best use of our talented wide players and the guile of our two front men whilst giving our oft-troubled defence a little extra protection. Its common sense not to be pretending that we have Maradona in the middle of the park who can pull the strings for us, we've tried Reid in that role before and its failed consistently, why stick with it?

First off, using the word 'persists' is really tabloid/sensationalistic/Dunphy-esque talk. He played him against Cyprus (who others have thought we should have beat easily and so hardly a great test supposedly), and then picked him again in a friendly. Considering Trap has already used a few other players in the CM position Gibson now holds, how can you honestly say he is constantly persisting with it?!
I fail to see how its 'very worrying' that he persists with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership. Whelan has been good so far for us, and those belittling him as little more than a Stoke reserve are way off, he's done a fine job thus far. Gibson hasn't been as effective. But he's young, obviously has the qualities that Trap likes and thinks he can mould in to a player of some worth for us. Considering what I said above about his experience being key, its great that he's now ear marked Gibson to play a role in this team. It wont happen overnight, or over two games, but by the end of the campaign he could be quite a good player for us. What do we get from chopping and changing to a new in vogue player each week, when the alternatives are hardly offering a different class (and Trap is right about Carsley, there's absolutely no chance of him being around in 2010)


Then there's Andy Keogh as a winger. As said before, this guy is a veteran campaigner of 30 years. If he decides to look at a player for 60 minutes, in a friendly, and that player is realistically the third choice right sided midfielder, is it really worth getting our knickers in a twist? Come on, giving him an hour in a friendly to see if he can cover in the result of two injuries, before hauling him off, how is that anything other than a minor, uncontroversial and instantly forgettable selection.


It really worries me how the knives are out for Trap. We're absolutely blessed to have him, I can't think of a realistically better alternative. People moaning about the team, and second guessing Trap over trivial things such as whether or not Andy Keogh should be third choice winger or not just adds to a negative air around the whole squad, and the games/weeks they are over for.

[Colbert Report]

Great post by the lad above me there. I do have to disagree with you about one thing though. Carsley is putting in ninety minutes for Birmingham every match and is their main player, from what I've read anyway. South Africa 2010 is really only what, nineteen months away? He won't lose his legs that fast. Certainly I can see your point about him not being around by 2010, but if we continue playing the young Gibson in the middle we won't get to the world cup finals anyway. I think Gibson is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he's not ready for this stage quite yet. He needs to go out on loan to a Championship team and get ninety minutes a week for an extended period of time before we start penciling him in for the starting central midfield role.

It worries me too that the knives are out for Trap already. In fairness to him, Steven Reid is done for the season and who else can he pick for the central midfield role? Andy Reid is a great great player but clearly not the defensive, tough tackling midfielder needed in Trap's system. Carsley, however, fits this role perfectly. If he were ten years younger he'd be in the starting line up, no question about it.