Economic Recovery

[OneRedArmy]

The didn't serve the workers all that well during the boom. Many would've been better going it alone for the minimal legislative benefits compared with the productivity increases over the same time. And a greater percentage of them would already be on the dole now if they went on their own, rather than deciding whether or not to engage in talks. Swings and roundabout.

Also, I think you're underplaying the impact of partnership. The average wage improvement in benign inflation environment that it brought is almost unparalleled in the developed world.

The employers side made hay, and they still want it to be the workers that take the pain now (I don't see IBEC, ISME et al offering anything in the recent debates, it's all about reducing their burden at the expense of workers).Who do you mean by "the employers", directors/senior managements?

I agree they shared disproportionately in the upside, but they are probably sharing disproportionately in the downside now (leaving aside the absolute level of compensation).

I'm not sure what ISME or IBEC can offer (flexible working, temporary unpaid leave possibly?), for many of their members their only goal is survival.

[Macy]

I don't see how it makes jobs any more or less at threat? It had it's place, but the last two, probably 3 were too far. Not enough concessions and barely covering inflation in terms of wages.

You could remove the PRSI ceilings, and increase corporation tax - a tax on profits afterall, so companies in trouble would be protected and start ups don't pay it anyway. Only the worker should take the pain, especially the most vunerable lowest paid workers (hence the calls for lowering the minimum wage).

[pete]

The lower paid workers are the ones most at risk but to wage inflation. It may be unkind to suggest they take the hits with pay freezes & such but that is reality as Ireland cannot attract high volume manufacturing & assembly work anymore. Higher paid jobs while affect by wage inflation to some extent are a lot less vulnerable than the low paid versions.

I really think the country in a lot more serious trouble that the average person believes. The public sector do not seem to realise that without private sector taxes job cuts will happen whether they strike or not. We has the IT boom & the property bubble but I really don't have an idea what can drag us out of this recession. As a nation largely dependent on multinationals it is hard to know what industries will be looking to invest here in the future...

We are only now starting to see improvements to infrastructure after 10 years & we probably can't afford to keep spending like we have...

[Macy]

I think public sector workers do realise - in a lot of cases they're trying to firefight the mess left behind by the captains of industry who got us into the crap in the first place. Also you'd swear the public sector don't pay tax as well. What a lot of the public sector won't accept is being scapegoated for the mistakes of others, mainly people that were being hailed as hero's and leaders by the right when the house of cards was still being constructed.

[pete]

I think public sector workers do realise - in a lot of cases they're trying to firefight the mess left behind by the captains of industry who got us into the crap in the first place. Also you'd swear the public sector don't pay tax as well. What a lot of the public sector won't accept is being scapegoated for the mistakes of others, mainly people that were being hailed as hero's and leaders by the right when the house of cards was still being constructed.

Everyone is affected by the property developers & bankers "performances". The simple fact is we will soon be at 10% unemployment & rising. We are borrowing billions to pay for government spending. No one is saying this is the public sectors fault or making them scapegoats. This is simple Maths - borrowing billions to pay for wages cannot continue at current level. Increasing taxes will happen anyway but if it was the only option used they would be so huge would cripple the country as we have been there before.

[OneRedArmy]

I think public sector workers do realise - in a lot of cases they're trying to firefight the mess left behind by the captains of industry who got us into the crap in the first place. Also you'd swear the public sector don't pay tax as well. What a lot of the public sector won't accept is being scapegoated for the mistakes of others, mainly people that were being hailed as hero's and leaders by the right when the house of cards was still being constructed.
1) Fairly narrow view of why we got into this mess. In quite a number of cases the public servants work for Government departments whose actions or inactions contributed to the crisis.

2) Also, they sought to be benchmarked to public pay. Works both ways.

3) We have one of the highest public v private pay rates in the world, even excluding the benefits that many of us in the private sector don't have (bullet-prooof pension, Work Time Directive, sick day allowance, flexitime).

[NeilMcD]

www.publicjobs.ie or maybe its too late

[irishultra]

we need to resort to drastic measures like what took place in riga and other parts of lativa.

maby then the goverment will get out of comfort zone

[Macy]

1) Fairly narrow view of why we got into this mess. In quite a number of cases the public servants work for Government departments whose actions or inactions contributed to the crisis.
You obviously haven't worked in the public sector if you think civil servants do anything other than directed. And most of the top boys are political appointments anyway (either explicitly or through manipulation). It's a convenient get out for the political class.


2) Also, they sought to be benchmarked to public pay. Works both ways.
Last benchmarking gave no increases, despite wages going up in the Private sector more than the national wage agreement, so it already has worked both ways.


3) We have one of the highest public v private pay rates in the world, even excluding the benefits that many of us in the private sector don't have (bullet-prooof pension, Work Time Directive, sick day allowance, flexitime).
There are lots of defined benefit pensions in the private sector too, it's just a pity that a lot of private sector workers allowed this to be eroded (and are now faciltating a race to the bottom on the pensions front by buying in to the IBEC/ISME/Right Wing calls for dismantling the public service pension). Most people I know have Sick pay and flexitime. Some of them have personal days that they don't have to explain at all on top of Annual Leave! Working time directive applies to all - people should organise if they are being exploited.
Public sector doesn't have other benefits such as health insurance, company cars that people in the Private Sector get.

[monutdfc]

3) We have one of the highest public v private pay rates in the world, even excluding the benefits that many of us in the private sector don't have (bullet-prooof pension, Work Time Directive, sick day allowance, flexitime).
I know somebody who took a 50% pay cut to move to the public sector, for basically the same job

[OneRedArmy]

I know somebody who took a 50% pay cut to move to the public sector, for basically the same jobAnd I know somebody who moved to the public sector, is working 30-40% less hours and got a payrise. And a better pension.

The facts are out there, the public sector is Ireland is one of the best paid in relation to the private sector anywhere in the world.

[pete]

The facts are out there, the public sector is Ireland is one of the best paid in relation to the private sector anywhere in the world.

The reason mainly seems to be pensions which of course were only considered for the first time in last years benchmarking review :eek:

I think defined benefit pensions are dead now as too risky if not 100% funded every year. Just look at Waterford Crystal where current employees likely to lose a huge amount if not all of their funds. Of course the state has not setup a scheme to protect such workers as mandated by EU law so guess the tax payer will have to foot the bill again.

It is easy to come up with public or private sector paid more examples but I would ask just one question - how does the state pay for current public sector numbers & wages?

[Macy]

There's only holes in pension funds because of a lack of regulation and protection for workers. The only reason defined benefits are closing is because of businesses wanting more profits at the expense of their employees entitlements.

All public servants pay into their pension - they cannot opt out. It costs the tax payer nothing extra, as anything going out is covered by what they are getting in in contributions from current civil & public servants (at the moment at least).

Maybe there should be compulsory pension requirements on all workers?

The public sector wage bill is always skewed because of the number of high income earners in it. Inevitably there are a higher percentage of professionals, high overtime occupations suchs the cops and prison officers, as well as the ridiculously overpaid politicians.

Public sector wages are paid from the tax take, which is also paid by the Public Sector worker (It's always the gross figure quoted for the wage bill, you can nearly half that).

[NeilMcD]

Check out the OECD report on the Irish public sector and civil service. The Sunday Indo has run a disgraceful campaign against both the public sector workers and stupidly they have also included ESB workers in this too. They should get their facts right before they go down a road of propaganda against the public sector. Just cause their boss is trying to shaft their pensions they are getting bitter against the public sector worker.

[Billsthoughts]

Check out the OECD report on the Irish public sector and civil service. The Sunday Indo has run a disgraceful campaign against both the public sector workers and stupidly they have also included ESB workers in this too. They should get their facts right before they go down a road of propaganda against the public sector. Just cause their boss is trying to shaft their pensions they are getting bitter against the public sector worker.

noticed this starting around the time of the budget. journalists lecturing people in not working hard enough. :)

the herald had a headline screaming about some department spending all their time looking at page 3 girls on the internet. backed up by the fact the sun website was one of the more popular sites visited.:rolleyes:

[pete]

Seems like the government has finally decided they need to make 2 billion in cuts. I suppose the unions can either part of that process or just wait for the government announcement.

Taking benchmarking increases in the good times & unwilling to accept cutbacks in line with the rest of economy in the bad times shows up the con job that process has been.

[Macy]

Seems like the government has finally decided they need to make 2 billion in cuts. I suppose the unions can either part of that process or just wait for the government announcement.
Has it? No one's seen sight of a plan, and the talks last week and the leaks were nothing but kite flying exercises.


Taking benchmarking increases in the good times & unwilling to accept cutbacks in line with the rest of economy in the bad times shows up the con job that process has been.
But last benchmarking gave no increase. I think there'll be movement on pay issues if it's part of an overall package that can be sold to members. It won't be passed, or even brought to members, if the sum total of 8 months of Government dithering is public sector pay cuts.

Are we actually in deflation yet? Because all I see are my bills going up - insurance products, health insurance, utilities. We, like many, have fixed rate mortgage, so no benefit there from falling rates. I'm not saying it won't happen, but O'Sullivan and Parlon are certainly contributing to the environment that will allow it to happen...

[pete]

Has it? No one's seen sight of a plan, and the talks last week and the leaks were nothing but kite flying exercises.


Some cuts will have to happen. Latest suggestion seems to be some sort of pension levy.

Friend is a teacher & he said they has vote last week on allowing union leaders to negotiate a pay cut which they rejected. There was no ballot on pay freeze or any other proposals. If the government but off the unions leaders with a few more semi state board or guango positions I am sure they will push the cuts through.

[Macy]

Some cuts will have to happen. Latest suggestion seems to be some sort of pension levy.
Something will be done, but basic pay won't be touched. Will be fun to see them try and implement overtime cuts in hospitals, prisons and the cops though.

[Macy]

Battery died on my player, but I believe the social partners are still yet to see this mythical plan. It seems their policy is to just see what IBEC and ICTU can come up with and then just referee the fight :rolleyes:

[pete]

Battery died on my player, but I believe the social partners are still yet to see this mythical plan. It seems their policy is to just see what IBEC and ICTU can come up with and then just referee the fight :rolleyes:

Would not be surprised. Leadership is a dirty word in the current government.

[hula4]

Something will be done, but basic pay won't be touched. Will be fun to see them try and implement overtime cuts in hospitals, prisons and the cops though.

it will be fun alright, and i hope it wont come to pass. overtime for us has been all but stopped unless in cases that cannot be avoided i.e. court etc, which means i will be lucky to earn 70% of what i did last year and i got my mortgage based on the strength of that.

obviously people think we dont do a whole pile either but i worked nights in dublin city centre the weekend just gone and due to not being able to get people in on overtime we were genuinely stretched very thin on a weekend that would normally not have been that busy.

im not trying to play the poor mouth but its looking like the way things will go we will be working harder for less money if these pay cuts come in.

we have already given up on the pay increase that was due to be 6% over the next 2 years and if we get a 5% reduction as well there will be serious opposition to it

[pete]

The next boom,mid 2012 for a bold guess,a boom which will reach its peak in 2014,and slow down in 2016

Bold prediction. Want to predict what will create the boom? As far as I can make the last 2 have been Dot.Com & Property.

[OneRedArmy]

How can a boom be sustainable? Didn't we just learn the folly of that?

[Poor Student]

I would have to say this:

The worst of it to continue through 2009
Slow recovery beginning in early 2010,which will speed up a bit nearing the end of 2010.

The next boom,mid 2012 for a bold guess,a boom which will reach its peak in 2014,and slow down in 2016

Based on what? That seems to be pure random speculation on your part.

[Dodge]

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/4b946536-2787-11de-9b77-00144feabdc0.html?nclick_check=1

Peter Sutherland argues that the Irish economy isn't in as bad a shape as is being reported

[NeilMcD]

Seems to me that he was probably one of the people who influenced and advised Lenihan.

[OneRedArmy]

Sutherland is one of the few Irish businessmen left with international credibility (Niall Fitzgerald is another). He's definitely worth listening to (not to say that you have to agree with him). He has an unbelievable CV.

Never mind Lenihan listening to him, put him in his job!!

[dahamsta]

He has an unbelievable CV.So does Bertie Ahern. Un-bloody-believable.

[Sheridan]

Sutherland is one of the few Irish businessmen left with international credibility (Niall Fitzgerald is another). He's definitely worth listening to (not to say that you have to agree with him). He has an unbelievable CV.

Never mind Lenihan listening to him, put him in his job!!
I'm beginning to wonder if Planet D4 is actually in this universe.

[Macy]

Sutherland is one of the few Irish businessmen left with international credibility
I thought he was under pressure in the UK after "overseeing" Fred the Shreds reign as a non-exec director of RBS?

[pete]

Sutherland is one of the few Irish businessmen left with international credibility (Niall Fitzgerald is another). He's definitely worth listening to (not to say that you have to agree with him). He has an unbelievable CV.


I agree. Overall one of the few high ranking internationla irish business people.

It would seem one of the strengths of the Presidential format of government is that you get to recruit the best people for the jobs instead of beinbg stuck with Dept of Finance drones.

[Macy]

I agree. Overall one of the few high ranking internationla irish business people.

It would seem one of the strengths of the Presidential format of government is that you get to recruit the best people for the jobs instead of beinbg stuck with Dept of Finance drones.
Part of the reason we're in this mess is because too many vested interests at the heart of Government, between Builders, developers and healthcare privateers. We don't need more that are part of even more insidious groups like Bilderberg.

[Sheridan]

I agree. Overall one of the few high ranking internationla irish business people.

It would seem one of the strengths of the Presidential format of government is that you get to recruit the best people for the jobs instead of beinbg stuck with Dept of Finance drones.
Have a look at the Senate to see how highly-qualified government appointees are...

[pete]

Have a look at the Senate to see how highly-qualified government appointees are...

I am not talking about politicians. I am not saying it is perfect by any means but in the US they can appoint experts in their field for say 2 years who have already made their money in the private sector. For example: If the head of say the Dept of Finance was useless could the Minister remove him? Surely if the Minister has the same advisors who helped him create the mess advising him (I am not absolving politicians for the mess) how to get out of it it does not suggest a successful outcome.

[Sheridan]

People who made their money in the private sector are at least as culpable for the current mess as those in government, I think we've handed them enough money and power via the bailouts as it is. Wealth != expertise.

[Macy]

I am not talking about politicians.
The Taoiseach already has 11 nominee's to the senate, and he can nominate two of those to cabinet (except a Tánaiste or as Minister for Finance). FF chose to waste them on failed polticians, future party prospects, and in the case of Harris, as payback to INM.

[OneRedArmy]

Sutherland is one of the few Irish businessmen left with international credibility (Niall Fitzgerald is another). He's definitely worth listening to (not to say that you have to agree with him). He has an unbelievable CV.

Never mind Lenihan listening to him, put him in his job!!


I'm beginning to wonder if Planet D4 is actually in this universe.


I thought he was under pressure in the UK after "overseeing" Fred the Shreds reign as a non-exec director of RBS?


People who made their money in the private sector are at least as culpable for the current mess as those in government, I think we've handed them enough money and power via the bailouts as it is. Wealth != expertise.In fairness to Sutherland, he isn't some fly-by-night property developer.

Yes, his has a history in big oil and investment banking, but he was Attorney General in his 30s and is an advisor to the Vatican and the UN.

Nobody is perfect, but compared to the incumbents and what else is out there, he's streets ahead intellectually.

[Macy]

Morning Ireland discussing how Sutherlands reputation has been damaged by being on the RBS & Goldman Sachs boards, and that his days at BP are numbered (even if he survives todays AGM). He's up to his oxters in the whole financial system, not the type of person we should be hooking up with now.

Edit - He's just been described as "shoddy goods" by someone from the torygraph

[OneRedArmy]

Morning Ireland discussing how Sutherlands reputation has been damaged by being on the RBS & Goldman Sachs boards, and that his days at BP are numbered (even if he survives todays AGM). He's up to his oxters in the whole financial system, not the type of person we should be hooking up with now.

Edit - He's just been described as "shoddy goods" by someone from the torygraphAre you arguing he's worse than the incumbents? Brave statement.

If you disallow everyone involved in a meaningful way in the financial system you have an immediate practical challenge of who manages and leads going forward.

Some people seem to think the answer lies in appointing career academics, however in my experience many are academics precisely because they can't manage and lack effective team dynamics.

Who would you appoint to run the banks and the regulatory bodies?

[Macy]

Not necessarily everyone involved in the financial system, just people like Sutherland who I do not trust to put national interest ahead of business interest. I'm not sure anyone's worse than the current incumbents, but Sutherland is cut from the same laissez faire cloth.

[OneRedArmy]

Not necessarily everyone involved in the financial system, just people like Sutherland who I do not trust to put national interest ahead of business interest. I'm not sure anyone's worse than the current incumbents, but Sutherland is cut from the same laissez faire cloth.

Hurling from the ditch?

It's a very real problem.

[Macy]

Hurling from the ditch?
I don't trust Sutherland, member of Bilderberg, director of RBS, director of Goldman Sachs, underpressure as chair of BP. I don't see him as a great white hope for Ireland, but if you see that as hurling from the ditch fair enough.

[Sheridan]

The likes of Sutherland and his legion have been engaged in what was basically a prolonged criminal conspiracy against the people of Ireland and the peoples of Europe. When something like that collapses, you don't try to reconstruct it, you wipe the slate clean and punish the wrongdoers.

[pete]

The likes of Sutherland and his legion have been engaged in what was basically a prolonged criminal conspiracy against the people of Ireland and the peoples of Europe. When something like that collapses, you don't try to reconstruct it, you wipe the slate clean and punish the wrongdoers.

I am not going to defend any one but what exactly did they do wrong. Seems like a broad sweeping statment above. :confused:

[eamo1]

Interesting conspiracy theory Sheridan,care to elaborate?Is this like that Zeitgiest film on youtube about the fianancial system in America?Is it a similar conspiracy to that your referring to?Summarise if you dont want to go into detail.I do think theres something dodgy going on.
The crisis was let go this far down the crapper-they didnt have collective world meetings about it till last November.

[OneRedArmy]

I don't trust Sutherland, member of Bilderberg, director of RBS, director of Goldman Sachs, underpressure as chair of BP. I don't see him as a great white hope for Ireland, but if you see that as hurling from the ditch fair enough.Its the failure to name realistic alternatives.


The likes of Sutherland and his legion have been engaged in what was basically a prolonged criminal conspiracy against the people of Ireland and the peoples of Europe. When something like that collapses, you don't try to reconstruct it, you wipe the slate clean and punish the wrongdoers.Populist conspiracy theory.

Over 50% of new mortgages in Ireland the period 2003-2006 were investment loans.

Endemic greed caused what happened and the people of Ireland shoulder a fair bit of the blame themselves. The meedja have consistently played the populist card (what a surprise, tell the people what they want to hear, sell more papers/get more listeners) and tried to blame a small cabal of individuals.

Whilst these people should shoulder their responsibility and be held accountable, the amount of handwashing and retrospective amnesia in Ireland is unbelievable.

[NeilMcD]

I agree with you there ORA and in addition to iI have one problem which is that they say things like we all lost the run of ourselves and we are all the blame etc. Well sorry I did not lose the run of myself and I know lots who did not. I did not take out a mortgage or a car loan and I do not have any debt of any kind. I did not decide to have kids I could not afford. In fact I did not do anything that I could not afford and all my outgoings are sustainable.

[pete]

Whilst these people should shoulder their responsibility and be held accountable, the amount of handwashing and retrospective amnesia in Ireland is unbelievable.

Well said.

I would say it also suits the politicians (both government & opposition) to point the fingers at "the bankers". Exhibit A: Noel Dempsey FF Ard Fheis speech.

[Macy]

I would say it also suits the politicians (both government & opposition) to point the fingers at "the bankers". Exhibit A: Noel Dempsey FF Ard Fheis speech.
I can see how it suits the Government, but I don't see how it suits the opposition? All this happened on FF/PD/Green watch. The banks were a major part of the problem aided and abetted by Government - it just so happens that the main benificaries were the developers and builders who are major backers of FF.


Its the failure to name realistic alternatives.
I don't actually recall agreeing with the premise in the first place tbh.