Alex Bruce

[ArdeeBhoy]

They'll care what people like me think, when we make our voices heard.

Given you don't exactly strike me as an extreme radical, how exactly??

[Not Brazil]

Given you don't exactly strike me as an extreme radical, how exactly??

Use your imagination.:)

[DannyInvincible]

Shouldn't NI fans be boycotting all FIFA competition anyway?

[Predator]

Use your imagination.:)More 'imaginative' posters then? What about an open letter, or a petition? That ought to get things done.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Use your imagination.:)

Burning an effigy of Nigel next Tuesday??

[SolitudeRed]

Burning an effigy of Nigel next Tuesday??

Is Nigel the new pope :D

[ArdeeBhoy]

Given the response of some quoted on here from OWB, he might as well be....

[SolitudeRed]

Given the response of some quoted on here from OWB, he might as well be....

He must be a double agent its all part of a popeish plot!!

[BonnieShels]

Where's Guy? He's a lot to answer for.

[Not Brazil]

Burning an effigy of Nigel next Tuesday??

The bonfires are on Monday night.

I'll be spending my "11th Night" on the golf course, followed by a nice bottle of red at home.

I'll be spending the following day on same golf course, in mixed company, followed by another bottle of red at home.

I may be an outrageous bigot, and secretly watch the half hour 12th highlights programme on BBC NI later that night - which may well feature a well known "Orange Historian", who happens to be a self confessed cross dresser :nerd:, and who lives at the end of our street. I chuckle at the thought of him sitting in the BBC Studio wearing a nice frock (orange, of course).

I'll save my angst for Nige until the Faroes game.:)

[Not Brazil]

The exclusive hatred for Bruce from the OWC fans is purely because he chose the ROI first

I was half hoping a former ROI Manager might be our next Manager.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Fair enough, assuming he lasts till then.
But suspect the OWB posse will be rather more vigorous in their contempt for Nige, depends how thick-skinned he is?

[ArdeeBhoy]

I was half hoping a former ROI Manager might be our next Manager.

Steve Staunton?? Normally wouldn't approve of An Lu man, but in these days of enlightenment....

[Not Brazil]

What I am getting at is an online poll maybe, and flagging the will of the supporters, and their valid reasons, up to a friendly mainstream media outlet prior to the guy actually appearing in your shirt. I mean, if the only articulation of this will be the booing of a guy out there playing for you, N.I. fans are going to end up looking pretty bad, again.


My only "articulation" of my dissatisfaction of Bruce appearing in (and devaluing) a Northern Ireland shirt, will be to leave the ground, if he appears.

Others will boo him - my anger is at Worthington, moreso than Bruce.

[Not Brazil]

Steve Staunton?? Normally wouldn't approve of An Lu man, but in these days of enlightenment....

:D

I think we'll give Steve a swerve.

[ifk101]

:D

I think we'll give Steve a swerve.

In fairness his international record more than stands up to comparison with Nigel's.

But anyways I presume Brian Kerr is your favoured option for Nigel's replacement?

[Not Brazil]

But anyways I presume Brian Kerr is your favoured option for Nigel's replacement?

I think he is a realistic, and credible, prospect.

[Fergie's Son]

Might be a bit of a step down from the Faroe Islands though.

[Not Brazil]

Might be a bit of a step down from the Faroe Islands though.

Aye, that might be a problem, right enough.

[ArdeeBhoy]

My only "articulation" of my dissatisfaction of Bruce appearing in (and devaluing) a Northern Ireland shirt, will be to leave the ground, if he appears.

Others will boo him - my anger is at Worthington, moreso than Bruce.

Presumably you would know he's playing, 'in advance'. What would be the point of either entering (or leaving) the ground if that happens?
Though Bruce is unlikely to play before at least a friendly, I reckon?

[Not Brazil]

Presumably you would know he's playing, 'in advance'. What would be the point of either entering (or leaving) the ground if that happens?
Though Bruce is unlikely to play before at least a friendly, I reckon?

That's a good point, well made.

The second instalment on my Block Booking is overdue to be paid to the IFA - I'll be deferring payment on same, until I see the squad for the game against the Faroes.

If Bruce is included, I'll not be paying it.

Following the IFA fiasco with the Carling Cup, viz a viz travel arrangements etc, I have no intention of attending any Northern Ireland friendly matches for the foreseeable in any case.

Changed times for me, from when I spent my hard earned dosh on travelling all over the place to watch Northern Ireland play in friendlies.

[ArdeeBhoy]

With you on the friendlies thing, well definitely the home ones.
A complete waste of time and effort unless you're close to the venue.

[Not Brazil]

With you on the friendlies thing, well definitely the home ones.
A complete waste of time and effort unless you're close to the venue.

I live approx 3 miles from Windsor Park.

I attended a friendly match there last night.

International friendlies are crap - whether they are 3 miles away, or 3,000 miles away.

However, my decision not to attend any friendly Internationals is not primarily based on the crapiness* of the fayre on offer.

*if that's a word.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I think he is a realistic, and credible, prospect.

I was talking to someone about Kerr recently and said I thought that'd be a shrewd move from the IFA for a couple of reasons. It could well happen.

[Not Brazil]

I was talking to someone about Kerr recently and said I thought that'd be a shrewd move from the IFA for a couple of reasons. It could well happen.

Indeed.

Kerr has been very helpful to the IFA in recent years, and enjoys a good relationship with them (apart from the match against his charges;) ) - there are plenty of people within the corridors of Windsor Avenue who would think highly of him.

I think he'd be a good choice - on various levels.

[CraftyToePoke]

My only "articulation" of my dissatisfaction of Bruce appearing in (and devaluing) a Northern Ireland shirt, will be to leave the ground, if he appears.

Others will boo him - my anger is at Worthington, moreso than Bruce.

NB, do you mean you will be walking out for the last time? Or that you will walk out every time he appears?

And is there any awareness amongst Worthington and his superiors of how much of a mess this will actually make? They must be aware of how upsetting this will be for the supporters, so why carry on with it for a very run of the mill player?

Seems a lot more trouble than its going to be worth to me.

[Fergie's Son]

Aye, that might be a problem, right enough.

Let's call it a lateral move.

[DannyInvincible]

Without Kerr having any professional interest in the eligibility row whatsoever, he's had (hypocritical and petty) pops at the FAI about it in the Irish media. I'd dread to have to listen to him go on about it if he ever became involved with the IFA in an official capacity. And that wouldn't be just because of his accent!

[Charlie Darwin]

I could see Kerr doing a Steve McLaren and showing up to the first press conference with a thick Belfast accent.

[Not Brazil]

Let's call it a lateral move.

Aye, ok, whatever you think.

[drummerboy]

I think it would be a good move if the IFA appointed Kerr. Apart from the fact that his father was a Belfast man, it would certainly help stop the flow of nationalist players declaring for the Republic. I always thought he deserved another campaign with Ireland.

[Not Brazil]

NB, do you mean you will be walking out for the last time? Or that you will walk out every time he appears?

And is there any awareness amongst Worthington and his superiors of how much of a mess this will actually make? They must be aware of how upsetting this will be for the supporters, so why carry on with it for a very run of the mill player?

Seems a lot more trouble than its going to be worth to me.

I'll be waiting to see our squad for The Faroes game in August - in Bruce is in it, I'll not be paying the second part of my Block Booking installment (currently overdue), and will not be attending.

Beyond that, I'll play it by ear. We could have a new Manager soon, who might see things differently re: Bruce and his ilk.

Regarding Worthington and the IFA Muppet Battalion, they will be aware of the depth of feeling amongst some of our support - I know at least two Senior IFA Officials who regularly keep abreast of fans opinions on forums. It should be noted that some fans are happy enough for Bruce to be included.

More and more, I feel that International football is being demeaned - not just by things like Bruce, but for other reasons also.

When I was a kid (many moons ago), it was the greatest honour in the game to represent your country at any opportunity.

It's not like that any more, for many players.

It's lost something over the years.

[Not Brazil]

I could see Kerr doing a Steve McLaren and showing up to the first press conference with a thick Belfast accent.

He has done several press conferences and speeches in Belfast as a guest at events hosted by the IFA - I have even had the pleasure of interviewing him at one such event.

He always spoken at such events in his strong Dublin accent.

[Stuttgart88]

The spectacular growth of the EPL and UCL has undermined international football in many ways. I think international football at the finals stage is still a great draw, but the qualification process could do with a revamping perhaps. I believe that the club game in Europe may well have plataued and may even fall back a bit because of tighter financial regulation (starts this season, but the real impact will be felt a few years from now) and a worsening economic outlook. I think this may well redress the balance a little. I hope so.

[Fergie's Son]

I think it would be a good move if the IFA appointed Kerr. Apart from the fact that his father was a Belfast man, it would certainly help stop the flow of nationalist players declaring for the Republic. I always thought he deserved another campaign with Ireland.

I do not believe it would stop the flow of players. That's a much more fundamental issue that won't go away with Kerr being appointed manager.

[DannyInvincible]

I do not believe it would stop the flow of players. That's a much more fundamental issue that won't go away with Kerr being appointed manager.

That's true, and whilst it's fundamentally a matter of national identity/non-identification with the entity that is NI, there are clearly those from nationalist backgrounds who are happy to settle with playing for NI even if they don't really see themselves culturally as "Northern Irish" or British. Niall McGinn plays for the IFA, but it would surprise me very much if he ever referred to himself as British or "Northern Irish" (even if he is officially exercising his legal right to British nationality in order to play for them). I think Kerr would be a shrewd appointment by the IFA in that wavering players from nationalist backgrounds would be able to associate with him as an Irish Irishman as opposed to a British Irishman, if you will. It might help remove a stigma for some who just want to play international football for the sake of playing football.

Personally, I wouldn't play international football simply for the sake of playing football because I think there's something more to it than just kicking a piece of leather around a patch of grass, but that's just me. If I was a professional footballer, I'd be eligible to play for NI, but playing for NI wouldn't interest me at all, even over the possibility of receiving one or no caps for Ireland. Obviously, not all individuals from nationalist backgrounds will think this way. In many ways, it's a tribal game, and I happen to enjoy it more for that. Sure, it's possibly bringing politics into it at worst, or culture/identity into it at best, but that doesn't have to be anything malignant or poisonous so long as you respect diversity. I think it would be boring otherwise. Why would we bother affiliating with any national team if we weren't going to discriminate (benignly) with regard to our cultural preference?

In saying all that, I would, of course, oppose Kerr's appointment with wholehearted staunchness and vigour! :p


Beyond that, I'll play it by ear. We could have a new Manager soon, who might see things differently re: Bruce and his ilk.

If it's Kerr, who knows? If we're to judge him at his word, he might object to selecting the likes of Bruce, but if we're to judge him by his actions...


More and more, I feel that International football is being demeaned - not just by things like Bruce

Yes, that sub-human piece of...erm, stuff! :p

[CraftyToePoke]

I think it would be a good move if the IFA appointed Kerr. Apart from the fact that his father was a Belfast man, it would certainly help stop the flow of nationalist players declaring for the Republic. I always thought he deserved another campaign with Ireland.

I dont think it would help stop that flow, having said that, I dont think Nigel Worthington helps either. But it is a bigger matter than who the manager is.

[Not Brazil]

If it's Kerr, who knows? If we're to judge him at his word, he might object to selecting the likes of Bruce, but if we're to judge him by his actions...


I wasn't specifically thinking about Kerr - I can think of other potential Northern Ireland Managers who I believe would take a harder line with mercenaries like Bruce.

[TrapAPony]

I'd say Jim Magilton will be the next N.Ireland manager.

[Not Brazil]

I'd say Jim Magilton will be the next N.Ireland manager.

Joined up with his mate Michael O'Neill at Shamrock Rovers until the end of the season, I see.

[DannyInvincible]

Osarusan; I caught your post before you deleted it, so, in case there was any doubt, I thought I'd provide reason for my assertion that "there are clearly those from nationalist backgrounds who are happy to settle with playing for NI even if they don't really see themselves culturally as "Northern Irish" or British".

Shane Duffy used to be part of the IFA set-up. I could attempt to get a direct quote from him if you wish. Otherwise, the words of his father, Brian, should prove informative: http://www.u.tv/Sport/IFA-to-investigate-Duffy-exit/311475fb-af49-487e-bda8-76d9391eff81

Conclusions could also be drawn from the following comments from players (including Duffy) who were once in IFA teams:


“No disrespect to Northern Ireland, but I would rather be playing for my country.” - Shane Duffy.

“It’s the best honour you can get to represent your country; it’s always been a dream of mine to play for Ireland.” - Marc Wilson.

“It was unbelievable, you know, making the debut for your country. Everyone from Derry wants to play for Ireland. I grew up supporting Ireland, so it was a natural choice for me.” - Darron Gibson.

As for Niall McGinn, I said it would surprise me, and it would. He "admitted" to being an Ireland fan himself and knowing the part of the world he comes from, I just couldn't imagine him referring to himself as Northern Irish, never mind British. Even if he does happen to play for the IFA.

'co. down green' has similarly shared anecdotes on here of guys he knows who work for the IFA but play football with him in Ireland gear and wouldn't be seen dead outside of their work in NI gear. I think he might even have mentioned one who travels to Ireland games with him, although possibly I imagined that. Their interaction with the IFA is just a job; not an indication of national identity. I'd argue that for many of those from a nationalist background who play for the IFA, they approach it in much the same fashion; as just playing football. That's just my hunch, but I think most posters from the north would be in agreement.

[osarusan]

As for Niall McGinn, I said it would surprise me, and it would. He "admitted" to being an Ireland fan himself and knowing the part of the world he comes from, I just couldn't imagine him referring to himself as Northern Irish, never mind British. Even if he does happen to play for the IFA.

I didn't mention the others, only McGinn.

But you don't actually have any evidence (apart from him saying he's an Ireland fan) that actually shows he's playing for a team for which he feels no 'cultural' affinity?

[DannyInvincible]

You'd quoted both sentences, if I recall correctly, so I'd assumed you were referring to both others and McGinn.

I've just my own instincts to go on, which is why I said it would surprise me. I didn't make a strict assertion with regard to McGinn. What I said would leave open the possibility (albeit unlikely, in my mind; yes, I admit, I'm going on a hunch) that he does actually identify as Northern Irish and would distinguish him from others who clearly don't.

[Predator]

I didn't mention the others, only McGinn.

But you don't actually have any evidence (apart from him saying he's an Ireland fan) that actually shows he's playing for a team for which he feels no 'cultural' affinity?No actual evidence, big deal. I could be wrong, but I think it's safe to assume that McGinn would have little affinity with the brand of Northern Ireland as proffered by the IFA, hence the bowed head of his we often see before games. Not to mention the admission of being an Ireland fan after playing Ireland. You see footballers are real people, who live in the real world.

Also, if being seen as British or Northern Irish was not an issue for these players, why was there such a clamour about travelling on an Irish passport alone? Probably just some old rubbish argument. Maybe.

[osarusan]

I've just my own instincts to go on, which is why I said it would surprise me. I didn't make a strict assertion with regard to McGinn.

Not here maybe (though I'm not sure I'd agree with that either).

But in your blog, you make what I'd consider a pretty strict assertion.


For reasons of pragmatism, the offer of a greater chance of first-team international football with the IFA might even convince certain players to remain in the IFA set-up permanently. Even full Northern Ireland international, Niall McGinn, recently made it known that he was actually a Republic of Ireland fan in the immediate aftermath of Northern Ireland’s 5-0 loss to their neighbours, but he chose to declare for the IFA. The fact that some players place the inevitable risks that come with extra competition behind their national identity in their list of priorities is demonstrative of their allegiance.

What you're doing here is basically saying that McGinn chose to play for a national team for which he has little or no cultural affinity because it gave him a chance to play more international football. That's a pretty serious assertion to make, and I'm not sure it's fair to do that based on your 'hunch', which itself seems at least partly informed by 'knowing the part of the world he comes from.'

[CraftyToePoke]

Not here maybe (though I'm not sure I'd agree with that either).

But in your blog, you make what I'd consider a pretty strict assertion.



What you're doing here is basically saying that McGinn chose to play for a national team for which he has little or no cultural affinity because it gave him a chance to play more international football. That's a pretty serious assertion to make, and I'm not sure it's fair to do that based on your 'hunch', which itself seems at least partly informed by 'knowing the part of the world he comes from.'

Well, for a man who was'nt getting involved, Osarusan, you are up to your apricots in it now.

[ArdeeBhoy]

I'd make Danny right on that point.
And why is it 'a pretty serious assertation' or does that even matter?

[The Fly]

What you're doing here is basically saying that McGinn chose to play for a national team for which he has little or no cultural affinity because it gave him a chance to play more international football. That's a pretty serious assertion to make, and I'm not sure it's fair to do that based on your 'hunch', which itself seems at least partly informed by 'knowing the part of the world he comes from.'

My younger brother played football with Niall McGinn for a short time a number of years ago, during which he explained, quite freely, that the main reason he played for Northern Ireland was for careerist reasons; believing that he would have little chance of playing international football with the Republic of Ireland.

You only have my word for that though, so I suppose you can take from it what you will.

[Fergie's Son]

Some good points Danny Invincible. I'd like to have a think and get back to you but overall I mostly agree with you.

[DannyInvincible]

Not here maybe (though I'm not sure I'd agree with that either).

But in your blog, you make what I'd consider a pretty strict assertion.



What you're doing here is basically saying that McGinn chose to play for a national team for which he has little or no cultural affinity because it gave him a chance to play more international football.

Am I? I don't think I'm asserting anything with certainty any more than I'm simply engaging in conjecture, or educated guesswork, you could say. Why would it be all that serious anyway? If there was any danger to come from McGinn being "exposed", it would have come in the aftermath to him admitting to being an Ireland fan himself.

I don't actually think I've excluded, either in this thread or in the blog piece, the possibility that McGinn might possess some degree of affinity, wherever or whatever it might spire from, with his team-mates and the team for whom he plays. It's obvious he feels nothing for the Northern Irish and British cultural symbolism and regalia that surrounds the team though. If he identified as either of those, I'd argue it wouldn't bother him. (Not ignoring you republican unionists, but c'mon...) The reason I mentioned Niall McGinn there in the blog was to demonstrate how players from nationalist backgrounds (and he undeniably is from a nationalist background) might still play for NI even though they might primarily identify as Irish. Sure, I wasn't to know that the Fly's brother had spoken to him, but you could you could have put two and two together as to his reasoning.

What does his admission that he supports Ireland say to you? How would you interpret it? To me and surely anyone knowledgeable of the dynamics and reality of life across both communities in the north, that's an implicit declaration that he sees himself as Irish first and foremost. And, quite often within the nationalist community, that is to the exclusion of considering oneself "Northern Irish" or British, although that's not to say that McGinn feels in no way attached to some idea of "Northern Irishness", but it just doesn't seem likely, and the Fly's words pretty much confirm it.

We all know the nature of the situation in NI. If we know he supports Ireland - and this isn't under dispute - would it not be fair to assume he'd have chosen to play for Ireland if he'd felt the FAI would have entertained him or if the potential sterner competition for a place hadn't been a concern? He comes from a Catholic nationalist background in Donaghmore in rural Tyrone. My own father is from rural Tyrone. Whether that might provide some insight into the thinking or general mindset of local nationalist community is up for debate, I suppose, but that's why I referred to knowing the area from where McGinn was coming. It's an area which is very proud of its Irish heritage and that includes interest in the Irish language, Gaelic names, games, dance and so forth. McGinn also used to play GAA for the local club and for the Tyrone county team at minor level. He curls up to being on the verge of squatting when 'God Save the Queen' is played before games and he could well be one of those players who travels on solely an Irish passport. He currently plays his club football with Celtic, a club that is very much associated with the Irish nationalist community and for whom the tricolour is a near-official icon. Considering all that, it just wouldn't spell out "Northern Irish" to me.

http://i437.photobucket.com/albums/qq94/bhamilton82/gstq.jpg


Some good points Danny Invincible. I'd like to have a think and get back to you but overall I mostly agree with you.

Cheers. Would be great to hear them.