Bohs Court Case

[stojkovic]

That'd be the least of their worries if they have to pay back the €1m for all the other years.


I thought those payments were for consideration only and NOT subject to planning permission ?

[Candystripe]

Fair enough; if it's such a trivial sum, I'm sure you can pay it over?

The deal you got for McCourt (400k all in?) was needed to keep the banks at bay, and there's money owed to other clubs (Dungannon mentioned for one), so the money owed to UCD isn't the full extent of your problems. I'd suggest you go off and ask questions about Derry's financial situation before commenting again. And there's not many deals between eL clubs that have exceeded E30k either.


As a Derry city share holder who has seen the financial figures, why are you talking BS?

You know that the €30k is including Sammons sell on clause and do you know when we will be receiving that from Kilmarnock?

So the 400k saved us???????????????? So far we have only recieved £100k, this is know as normal between football clubs.

So someone who lives in Dublin and not a Derry fan knows the in's and out's of another clubs finances!!!!

As for our budget this season which is a lot smaller than last year when Fenlon came to destroy us is still under 24k a week which is less than half Corks,Pats, Drogs and Bohs budgets up until recently.

[OneRedArmy]

Pineapple Stu can you attribute your post as the rules require?

[Mr A]

Right, so how much do I get from this? Now that it's mentioned I do have a vague recollection of buying part of Dalymount one night while a bit ****ed.

[HarpoJoyce]

Pineapple Stu can you attribute your post as the rules require?

He doesn't follow any rules. He's a Maverick.
(I think this is why he refers to football clubs with the agricultural 'tits up'.)


I understand that posters are trying to explain some legal issues and fair play. But comparing these proceedings with the domestic home confuses things as the Family Home Protection Act 1976 protects both spouses (gender specific warning: usually the wife.) from having the home sold without their permission... and even then.
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0027/index.html
Consent of spouse
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1976/en/act/pub/0027/sec0004.html#zza27y1976s4


(I don't want to get into any detailed discussion on this only I just had a Judge Judy moment.)

[DmanDmythDledge]

Well as you have alot to say on it and "seem to know alot on our financial siruation" then maybe you can shed light on what our predicament actually is?
Just heard from the man himself (guess who) that the cheque from Derry arrived during the week. *******s wouldn't pay until John Delaney intervened. Tight arsed scumbags.

[OneRedArmy]

Just heard from the man himself (guess who) that the cheque from Derry arrived during the week. *******s wouldn't pay until John Delaney intervened. Tight arsed scumbags.What are you going to whinge about now?

[dcfcsteve]

Just heard from the man himself (guess who) that the cheque from Derry arrived during the week. *******s wouldn't pay until John Delaney intervened. Tight arsed scumbags.

But hang on - Pineapple Stu says you're still owed the money, and that we're in financial sh!t and can't afford to pay it !

Surely someone with his in-depth knowledge of other club's finances would know his own club's finances even more intimately, and have heard the minute the cheque landed at UCD...!?!

Don't tell me Pineapple Stu's got this all wrong....? :eek:

:o

[pineapple stu]

Nope, Delaney hassled and hassled Derry, and the cheque has finally arrived. No contradictions; I wasn't aware of the latest development until this evening. I've never claimed to be up to the minute; that's your claim. The cheque is still six months late though.

You can believe me or not about Derry, I don't care. But I've requested previous Derry fans who've challenged me on it to go off and look into the club's accounts before posting further, and none have. My source is the UCD club officials, who were told this during the previously mentioned heated meeting with Derry officials after the UCD-Derry game in August. MariborKev has posted (http://www.srfcultrasforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125675#post125675) on the Rovers forum that Derry will be having serious cut backs next year, despite what deluded Derry fans think; I think that's fairly good back up. I think you'll find my previous record in such matters to be quite good too.

[SwanVsDalton]

Nope, Delaney hassled and hassled Derry, and the cheque has finally arrived. No contradictions; I wasn't aware of the latest development until this evening. I've never claimed to be up to the minute; that's your claim. The cheque is still six months late though.

You can believe me or not about Derry, I don't care. But I've requested previous Derry fans who've challenged me on it to go off and look into the club's accounts before posting further, and none have. My source is the UCD club officials, who were told this during the previously mentioned heated meeting with Derry officials after the UCD-Derry game in August. MariborKev has posted (http://www.srfcultrasforum.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125675#post125675) on the Rovers forum that Derry will be having serious cut backs next year, despite what deluded Derry fans think; I think that's fairly good back up. I think you'll find my previous record in such matters to be quite good too.

It's common knowledge that Derry will be looking to make cut-backs next year - and I think it's fair to say most fans have accepted it.

But even if Derry are on a dangerous slope (like everyone else except the students and maybe a couple of others) we're still some way away from the trouble Bohs are in.

[dancinpants]

It's common knowledge that Derry will be looking to make cut-backs next year - and I think it's fair to say most fans have accepted it.

Given the chairman made a lengthy statement to that effect... I would agree SvD. But Stu being Stu would love to tag everyone of us with his "deluded" label :rolleyes:

[Candystripe]

Nope, Delaney hassled and hassled Derry, and the cheque has finally arrived. No contradictions; I wasn't aware of the latest development until this evening. I've never claimed to be up to the minute; that's your claim. The cheque is still six months late though.



You's are fully paid now including the sell-on money we got.


How could it be six months late? We only sold Sammon on monday the 28th of July!

I thought you were good at maths :rolleyes:

P.S. Most Derry fans know our budget will be smaller next season as we were told about months ago. Living within our means is what we intend to keep doing and if it means we don't win the league thats fair enough.

[Réiteoir]

You's are fully paid now including the sell-on money we got.


How could it be six months late? We only sold Sammon on monday the 28th of July!

I thought you were good at maths :rolleyes:

P.S. Most Derry fans know our budget will be smaller next season as we were told about months ago. Living within our means is what we intend to keep doing and if it means we don't win the league thats fair enough.

Surely that should read League Cup in the last sentence there? ;)

[Dodge]

he hee he

[OneRedArmy]

Surely that should read League Cup in the last sentence there? ;)I'll take the League Cup any day over the futsal or whatever other pub League you'll be playing in next year.

[pineapple stu]

How could it be six months late? We only sold Sammon on monday the 28th of July!
We sold him to you last December; the second instalment of that was only paid this week, way after the agreed schedule.

I'm fully aware Derry are nowhere near being the next Bohs, but things are far from rosy up there and, as I said, but for the sale of McCourt, it would have been a lot worse.


But Stu being Stu would love to tag everyone of us with his "deluded" label
Not my label.

[Dalymountrower]

Care to explain the anomalies and inconsistencies littering the judgment?

It was one of the most thorough judgments I have ever heard and it was obvious that a great deal of consideration was given and a great deal of effort put into writing it up.

John Edwards, while only a short while on the bench, was one of the very top and most highly respected lawyers in the country for years.


If you read the entire judgement you will find that the equitable principles that he cited to hold in favour of Albion`s counter-claim are completely without precedent. None of the commercial lawyers I spoke to could name a similar case It looks to me that he also erred in reaching findings that were not specifically argued before him. Edwards acted as if he was still a lawyer advising clients .The reality now is that Bohs and Albion are still in the same position in that ageement is required from both sides to realise the others ambitions. The clock is ticking on Albions planning permission and Albion`s equitable interest in the Tramway end puts a hold on the Carroll deal. If Albion look for Specific Performance of their interest they will have to join the very long queue of such cases pending in the commercial courts. I would be surprised if there wasn`t a three way settlement with Albion ,Carroll and Bohs before this appears in the courts again. Carroll can of course pursue Bohs on simple contract debt grounds if he wants out of the picture or he can use the strong position he is now in to aquire the entire site plus shopping centre. Either way Bohs retain a substantial propety asset and maximum exposure amounts to a mortgage equating to 10% of the value of the assett. Any commercial company would be delighted with that level of gearing.
So.... sorry to disappoint the Rovers posters on this thread but we are, and will continue to be, considerably richer than you:cool:

[sonofstan]

If you read the entire judgement

How? it doesn't appear to be up on the Courts' Service site yet?

[OneRedArmy]

Either way Bohs retain a substantial propety asset and maximum exposure amounts to a mortgage equating to 10% of the value of the assett. Any commercial company would be delighted with that level of gearing.Talk about spin.....

Where do you get your 10% figure from?

Where do you propose to get a mortgage from?

How would you service the repayments on that mortgage given you don't generate cash, you burn it?

Unless Liam Carroll's financial wellbeing is a lot better than media reports say he'll look to void the contract and get repayment of monies advanced. I can't see his bankers letting him turn down the option of effectively selling back land at 200-300% of its current market value.

[Dalymountrower]

Talk about spin.....

I have a view you have a view, call it spin if you like

Where do you get your 10% figure from?

At the outside 4mill exposure, already have overdraft facility up to that amount. Consevative value of land without Albion portion 40 mill

Where do you propose to get a mortgage from?

Whoever gives the the most competitive rate

How would you service the repayments on that mortgage given you don't generate cash, you burn it?

We`ll have to stop the ritual cash burning alright, a reduced playing panel and a more realistic wage structure would be a start

Unless Liam Carroll's financial wellbeing is a lot better than media reports say he'll look to void the contract and get repayment of monies advanced. I can't see his bankers letting him turn down the option of effectively selling back land at 200-300% of its current market value.

I don`t understand your point, if Carrolll wants to pull out he can, if he wants to stay in the game he`ll have to cut a deal with Bohs. If Albion want to proceed on the basis of their existing planning then they also have to cut a deal with Bohs. The only certainty is that when the dust settles on this mess Bohs will either have a valuable piece of land, no takers and a difficult , if manageable debt, or a large wad of cash in the tens of millions. Obviously it could be better but not a disasterous position by any means

[hoops1]

If you read the entire judgement you will find that the equitable principles that he cited to hold in favour of Albion`s counter-claim are completely without precedent. None of the commercial lawyers I spoke to could name a similar case It looks to me that he also erred in reaching findings that were not specifically argued before him. Edwards acted as if he was still a lawyer advising clients .The reality now is that Bohs and Albion are still in the same position in that ageement is required from both sides to realise the others ambitions. The clock is ticking on Albions planning permission and Albion`s equitable interest in the Tramway end puts a hold on the Carroll deal. If Albion look for Specific Performance of their interest they will have to join the very long queue of such cases pending in the commercial courts. I would be surprised if there wasn`t a three way settlement with Albion ,Carroll and Bohs before this appears in the courts again. Carroll can of course pursue Bohs on simple contract debt grounds if he wants out of the picture or he can use the strong position he is now in to aquire the entire site plus shopping centre. Either way Bohs retain a substantial propety asset and maximum exposure amounts to a mortgage equating to 10% of the value of the assett. Any commercial company would be delighted with that level of gearing.
So.... sorry to disappoint the Rovers posters on this thread but we are, and will continue to be, considerably richer than you:cool:


:D:D: Thats the spirit.

[Boh_So_Good]

Funny I seem to recall myself and a lot of other Bohs supporters supporting Rovers in their own court case against the GAA.

[pete]

Given that Albion have already paid money to Bohs as per their contract on what basis were Bohs looking to have that contract cancelled? From what I have read Albion have not breached their contract.

:confused:

[dfx-]

Funny I seem to recall myself and a lot of other Bohs supporters supporting Rovers in their own court case against the GAA.

There's a difference between an act of bigotry and an act of business stupidity on an impressive scale.

Youz tried to sell something twice, ffs.

[OneRedArmy]

Who knew a stand with 4 rows of seats (or whatever that comedy stand they wanted to develop with Albion had) would prove to be such a problem.

I remember thinking at the time it was a ridiculous proposal.

[A face]

I remember thinking at the time it was a ridiculous proposal.

I was saying the same. From the drawing of the stand it seemed very poor and it was a bit strange that Bohs did agree to it at the time. I thought they were getting short changed at the time to be honest.

[topia]

I was saying the same. From the drawing of the stand it seemed very poor and it was a bit strange that Bohs did agree to it at the time. I thought they were getting short changed at the time to be honest.



does anyone have the plans of that stand handy by any chance????

[shantykelly]

I don`t understand your point, if Carrolll wants to pull out he can, if he wants to stay in the game he`ll have to cut a deal with Bohs. If Albion want to proceed on the basis of their existing planning then they also have to cut a deal with Bohs. The only certainty is that when the dust settles on this mess Bohs will either have a valuable piece of land, no takers and a difficult , if manageable debt, or a large wad of cash in the tens of millions. Obviously it could be better but not a disasterous position by any means

the land is only worth what some one is willing to pay for it, thats what drove the property boom and the unsustainable prices. developers were willing to take huge loans and buy land at artificially inflated prices in the hope of making a quick turnaround on the development. if no one is willing to buy your ground, its worth **** all to youse. and in the current climate in the construction industry, no one will looking to buy it off youse any time soon.

[charliesboots]

If you read the entire judgement....

I was in Court for the entire judgment and I stand by my original post

[jimhacker]

I don`t understand your point, if The only certainty is that when the dust settles on this mess Bohs will either have a valuable piece of land, no takers and a difficult , if manageable debt, s


The land is only valuable if some wants to, or is able to, buy it.

As a football pitch it's worthless.

And the debt - how exactly will that be managed given the pitiable gate receipts and the existing borrowings costing €100,00 p.a. in interest alone?

[bigmac]

are you about 6 or what....:rolleyes:

Where's that ignore button :confused:

We won't know unless Dalymount is auctioned off now, will we. :rolleyes:

[CuanaD]

Given that Albion have already paid money to Bohs as per their contract on what basis were Bohs looking to have that contract cancelled? From what I have read Albion have not breached their contract.

:confused:

I think I know the answer to this - There was no signed contract - only a series of proposals & verbal agreements in principal. Albion were paying money on the assumption that a deal would be finallised eventually.

[CuanaD]

As for the worth of Dayler - it was worth 65M at the time of the deal - at the moment it would still be worth over 40M & I'd expect that value to bounce back up to 50M quite soon after the property market stabilises.

As for that - the property market has just been through a 6-months of nothing - basically no sales, but it is now coming out the other end - sales have just resumed (in the last 3 weeks!) at both ends of the scale - ie I know of a <3M house closing and numerous >500k closing in the past weeks (none of which were moving 3 months ago). There will be another 3-4 weeks of quiet movement before Xmas & sales should resume reasonably in late Feb. (Ive been through a few of these property booms & busts & they all follow a fairly predictable pattern). Expect prices to increase in 2009 by 4%+ (could be up to 6% I think)

[Dodge]

As for the worth of Dayler - it was worth 65M at the time of the deal - at the moment it would still be worth over 40M & I'd expect that value to bounce back up to 50M quite soon after the property market stabilises.


1) The Danninger deal was for €40m plus a stadium in harristown.

2) The same deal won't be offered to anyone else as a significant portion of it isn't Bohs to sell. The access factor cannot be underestimated

The rest of your financial outlook is wildly optimistic

[OneRedArmy]

As for the worth of Dayler - it was worth 65M at the time of the deal - at the moment it would still be worth over 40M & I'd expect that value to bounce back up to 50M quite soon after the property market stabilises.

As for that - the property market has just been through a 6-months of nothing - basically no sales, but it is now coming out the other end - sales have just resumed (in the last 3 weeks!) at both ends of the scale - ie I know of a <3M house closing and numerous >500k closing in the past weeks (none of which were moving 3 months ago). There will be another 3-4 weeks of quiet movement before Xmas & sales should resume reasonably in late Feb. (Ive been through a few of these property booms & busts & they all follow a fairly predictable pattern). Expect prices to increase in 2009 by 4%+ (could be up to 6% I think)Are you Tom Parlon by any chance?

This post is hilarious.

[pete]

As for the worth of Dayler - it was worth 65M at the time of the deal - at the moment it would still be worth over 40M & I'd expect that value to bounce back up to 50M quite soon after the property market stabilises.


Without planning permission Dalymount is not worth a fraction of those numbers. Carroll was speculating that site would be rezoned in 2011.



As for that - the property market has just been through a 6-months of nothing - basically no sales, but it is now coming out the other end - sales have just resumed (in the last 3 weeks!) at both ends of the scale - ie I know of a <3M house closing and numerous >500k closing in the past weeks (none of which were moving 3 months ago). There will be another 3-4 weeks of quiet movement before Xmas & sales should resume reasonably in late Feb. (Ive been through a few of these property booms & busts & they all follow a fairly predictable pattern). Expect prices to increase in 2009 by 4%+ (could be up to 6% I think)

I am still waiting for the soft landing but those numbers far too optimistic. Unemployment is increasing quickly so hard to see house prices rising while that continues & over supply not cleared.

[charliesboots]

Without planning permission Dalymount is not worth a fraction of those numbers. Carroll was speculating that site would be rezoned in 2011.



I am still waiting for the soft landing but those numbers far too optimistic. Unemployment is increasing quickly so hard to see house prices rising while that continues & over supply not cleared.

Off topic - Wait for the massacre of people in retail and service industry after Christmas and then we'll start talking about recovery.

On Topic - Dalymount without the Connaught Street access and with the economic downturn is worth an enormous amount less than what it was when the deal was done with Carroll.

[Kingdom]

While this is very off topic (and I'm sorry for that:o) is there any chance Dalyer could be redeveloped in its current state. An all seater 7/8k stadium?

[Dodge]

While this is very off topic (and I'm sorry for that:o) is there any chance Dalyer could be redeveloped in its current state. An all seater 7/8k stadium?

If someone was willing to pay for it...

[pete]

While this is very off topic (and I'm sorry for that:o) is there any chance Dalyer could be redeveloped in its current state. An all seater 7/8k stadium?

Shels could lump in their 1.5m & pay for 1000 seats :p

Might be an opportunity for the FAI to pursue a 2 stadium Dublin policy by getting Shels in to share/rent. Doubt Bohs have given up on selling stadium yet though.

[BohDiddley]

Shels could lump in their 1.5m & pay for 1000 seats :p

Might be an opportunity for the FAI to pursue a 2 stadium Dublin policy by getting Shels in to share/rent. Doubt Bohs have given up on selling stadium yet though.
You may remember that wheeze was tried a few years back and met with near-total opposition (though it was a neat dummy in advance of the real deal to sell Dalymount). Even in the wake of the court case, why Bohs should see themselves as equals to them in property terms is anyone's guess.

As a southside team, it would make much more sense to have them share Tallaght.

[Kingdom]

Thaniks for the replies men. I've always liked Dalymount, and while I completely understand why Bohs were/are keen to cash in on Dalyer, I always thought it to be perfect for a small scale fully seated stadium. A good LoI stadium I suppose. I know you're probably pulling the p!ss Pete, but the more decent stadiums in the league the better I would have thought.
Again completely O.T

[Dodge]

As a southside team, it would make much more sense to have them share Tallaght.

They're more city centre than Southside. Dalymount is far closer to Rngsend than Tallaght

[bohs til i die]

1) The Danninger deal was for €40m plus a stadium in harristown.

2) The same deal won't be offered to anyone else as a significant portion of it isn't Bohs to sell. The access factor cannot be underestimated

The rest of your financial outlook is wildly optimistic


The original deal for the ground was worth €58.5 Million

This involved €25 million stadium in Harristown
The balance in cash, paid in stages over the initial 5 years and the rest upon our leaving Dalymount

There is also penalty clauses if Liam Carroll's side of the agreement isnt kept such as if his company causes a delay in us leaving Dalymount.

[Dodge]

Thanks for clarifying that

[BohDiddley]

They're more city centre than Southside. Dalymount is far closer to Rngsend than Tallaght
Last I checked, Ringsend was emphatically south Dublin. Southside is southside. What's it to you anyway? Worried about your option on the municipal stadium?

[hoops1]

Why do the bohs board treat their fans like arseholes?
http://www.photoshopshowcase.com/ViewFlashMedia.aspx?AID=181913&AT=3

[bohs til i die]

Why do the bohs board treat their fans like arseholes?
http://www.photoshopshowcase.com/ViewFlashMedia.aspx?AID=181913&AT=3

The fancy dress idea was mooted months ago. It was a bit of fun. Regardless of how people dressed on saturday it wouldnt have changed a thing and I really do think some of you fools ought to get a sense of humour.

[shantykelly]

Why do the bohs board treat their fans like arseholes?
http://www.photoshopshowcase.com/ViewFlashMedia.aspx?AID=181913&AT=3

that actually looks like a good bit of craic. especially petr cech on the pitch.

[Founders]

Why do the bohs board treat their fans like arseholes?
http://www.photoshopshowcase.com/ViewFlashMedia.aspx?AID=181913&AT=3

Lets be honest that looks better than a bunch of grown men running around in circles on the tolka pitch:o