View Full Version : Bohs Court Case
Only a few years back Derry City were robbed of a league title by Shels doing something similar and now, if we win our last 3 games, it's quite possible that we've been robbed of another title by Bohs doing the same.
I think I'm going to have to change the honours roll on my Derry City poster at home.
LOI titles won-2
LOI titles stolen by overspending Dublin Clubs in cahoots with the FAI-2:eek:
You'd swear you were spending millions less than them :rolleyes:
Steveoc
07/11/2008, 1:07 PM
Bad day for the league from the point of view of the negativity that will follow, especially if Bohs also end up in examinership - although I don't know if they can by virtue of their status as a private members club. On the other hand it probably means that next season will see the "cop-on" tablets being taken widely when it comes to running costs etc.
A much more sustainable league is now likely which ultimately will be good for the game here ( I hope).
dcfcsteve
07/11/2008, 1:08 PM
Steve doesn't get tones...
And it seems the only tone Dodge does is a patronising and generally incorrect one....
:ball:
dcfcsteve
07/11/2008, 1:10 PM
I'd feel sorry for you if you weren't overspending massively yourselves this season.
Define "massively"....?
Owing a few clubs what are relatively minor sums in Irish football does not equate to "massively".
pineapple stu
07/11/2008, 1:13 PM
Let's say that selling Pat McCourt possibly saved the club. Massive enough for you?
And I disagree that E30k is a "relatively minor sum" in Irish football. It's 5% or so of our budget we're missing, for a start.
I think I'm going to have to change the honours roll on my Derry City poster at home.
LOI titles won-2
LOI titles stolen by overspending Dublin Clubs in cahoots with the FAI-2
So you guys weren't spending big for either of those 2 titles and have an enviable track record of financial stability then?
Let's say that selling Pat McCourt possibly saved the club. Massive enough for you?
And I disagree that E30k is a "relatively minor sum" in Irish football. It's 5% or so of our budget we're missing, for a start.
Hmm. So if Derry don't pay that soon they won't get a license- correct?
pineapple stu
07/11/2008, 1:25 PM
Do you want the "In theory" answer or the "In reality" answer?
Partizan
07/11/2008, 1:26 PM
Bohs are fvcked. Liam Carroll will now sue them for the monies he has paid Bohs as the original deal made between the 2 parties was in fact fraudulant with Albion owning the tramway terrace.
Expect to see the FAI buying out Dalymount (again) to save Bohs. I dont shed the slightest tear for a club run so recklessly.
Longfordian
07/11/2008, 1:29 PM
The FAI don't have the cash to be buying Dalymount. They're on the hunt for a finance package themselves apparently.
McShels
07/11/2008, 1:31 PM
The last 3 champions Shels, Drogs and now Bohs have gone (will go) to the wall.
Shels didnt go to the wall, despite the wishes of a lot of posters from clubs around the country who have suffered their own financial problems this year!!!!!!!
Bottom line Shels are still here and hopefully back in the Premier next season
Partizan
07/11/2008, 1:32 PM
If the FAI dont have the cash, where does that leave Bohs?
1) extinction
2) obscurity in the 1st Division
jinxy lilywhite
07/11/2008, 1:34 PM
Picture this all the chairmen of Loi at a function. One says to the Other "You'll be next"
Fvckin joke of clubs. Nobody in the top tier can manage finances (Exceptions Pats (though being bankrolled) Shamrock Rovers and UCD).
If this is what clubs need to be brought back down to earth then so be it. Forget these European Pipe dreams folly that we can get a team in the group stages on the Champions league or UEFA cup.
No wonder the league is the laughing stock of Irish sport
randomcomment
07/11/2008, 1:34 PM
Actually Shels will more likely be in the A Championship than the premier league next season.....
Watch this space
Fvckin joke of clubs. Nobody in the top tier can manage finances (Exceptions Pats (though being bankrolled) Shamrock Rovers and UCD).
Would this be the same Rovers that asked their members to pay 2-5 years membership fees upfront last year?
Longfordian
07/11/2008, 1:37 PM
You seem to be very confident of this randomcomment, care to elaborate a bit?.
higgins
07/11/2008, 1:39 PM
Actually Shels will more likely be in the A Championship than the premier league next season.....
Watch this space
Rubbish!!
hoops1
07/11/2008, 1:41 PM
Would this be the same Rovers that asked their members to pay 2-5 years membership fees upfront last year?
No matter what spin you want to put on things. We are the best finacially run club in the league
No matter what spin you want to put on things. We are the best finacially run club in the league
LOL. Of course you are
jinxy lilywhite
07/11/2008, 1:42 PM
Would this be the same Rovers that asked their members to pay 2-5 years membership fees upfront last year?
They've stayed off the radar this season dodge.
Back to Bohs.
What are the implications for them?
Would it be highly unlikely that they can continue?
If carroll gets his legals cost awarded to bohs and bohs will have to repay the money he leant? No judge would approve that to have a chance of survival should they want to go into examinership? would they
pineapple stu
07/11/2008, 1:46 PM
Tehy can't go into examinership because they have the assets to repay all debts. It just means selling Dalymount. Which is what they may well have to do. And so just as Rovers get a new ground, Bohs start off on the homeless route.
RonnieB
07/11/2008, 1:49 PM
They can share with Rovers, it would be like the perfect odd couple. One could make a show about it.
Longfordian
07/11/2008, 1:52 PM
You'd have to have Danny Dyer presenting that one.
Sheridan
07/11/2008, 1:52 PM
Picture this all the chairmen of Loi at a function. One says to the Other "You'll be next"
Fvckin joke of clubs. Nobody in the top tier can manage finances (Exceptions Pats (though being bankrolled) Shamrock Rovers and UCD).
If this is what clubs need to be brought back down to earth then so be it. Forget these European Pipe dreams folly that we can get a team in the group stages on the Champions league or UEFA cup.
No wonder the league is the laughing stock of Irish sport
You're right, once we revert to this lost Utopia of crap part-time teams playing to empty stadia and getting hockeyed in Europe every year I'm sure the league will cease to be a laughing stock. What the sporting public really want are neat balance sheets.
Bohs are ****ed in the short-term, the incompetence of their officers is beyond comprehension. They'll end up selling Dalymount for ~25m (possibly to Carroll himself, in return for writing off the loans.) It's how far they make that go that counts.
Should be enough for another couple of titles anyway.
Longfordian
07/11/2008, 1:55 PM
How much would Dalymount be worth without the shopping centre end and the access it provides is the question.
OneRedArmy
07/11/2008, 1:56 PM
You're right, once we revert to this lost Utopia of crap part-time teams playing to empty stadia and getting hockeyed in Europe every year I'm sure the league will cease to be a laughing stock. What the sporting public really want are neat balance sheets.
Bohs are ****ed in the short-term, the incompetence of their officers is beyond comprehension. They'll end up selling Dalymount for ~€25m (possibly to Carroll himself, in return for writing off the loans.) It's how far they make that go that counts.Sheridan the only thing I'd disagree with is the €25m valuation.
Landbank for development is probably worth maximum 40% of what it was worth at the height of the boom (original Carroll deal was €65m iirc so you're not far off), BUT even thats completely hypothetical as no bank will lend a cent for a property development in the near future. So unless someone ponies up the cash themselves, Dalymount is worthless in the short-term.
Edit: I'd forgotten, As Longfordian said, the lack of access to the site. Makes it even more worthless.
Partizan
07/11/2008, 1:58 PM
You're right, once we revert to this lost Utopia of crap part-time teams playing to empty stadia and getting hockeyed in Europe every year I'm sure the league will cease to be a laughing stock. What the sporting public really want are neat balance sheets.
Bohs are ****ed in the short-term, the incompetence of their officers is beyond comprehension. They'll end up selling Dalymount for ~25m (possibly to Carroll himself, in return for writing off the loans.) It's how far they make that go that counts.
Move in to a redeveloped Tolka with Shels??? Will the FAI bail them out again this time.
Partizan
07/11/2008, 2:00 PM
Sheridan the only thing I'd disagree with is the 25m valuation.
Landbank for development is probably worth maximum 40% of what it was worth at the height of the boom (original Carroll deal was 65m iirc so you're not far off), BUT even thats completely hypothetical as no bank will lend a cent for a property development in the near future. So unless someone ponies up the cash themselves, Dalymount is worthless in the short-term.
If as you say ORA that is the case, where does that leave Bohs?
up a certain creek paddle less
Tolka's already gone...
Into an already FAI owned AUL complex in clonshaugh? maybe, but as above the FAI need every penny they can get to pay for Lansdowne.
jinxy lilywhite
07/11/2008, 2:01 PM
How much would Dalymount be worth without the shopping centre end and the access it provides is the question.
Without that access its worth a hell of a lot less. Actually since they wouldn't have that a lot of people wouldn't be interested. I think bohs will have to come to some pre arranagement with who ever owns its which could cost them a fortune.
Without that access its worth a hell of a lot less. Actually since they wouldn't have that a lot of people wouldn't be interested. I think bohs will have to come to some pre arranagement with who ever owns its which could cost them a fortune.
Thats what they tried to do, and Albion stood their ground.
mypost
07/11/2008, 2:05 PM
They can share with Rovers, it would be like the perfect odd couple. One could make a show about it.
They wouldn't be able to find Tallaght, yet alone play there. :D
It's somewhere south of Cabra. :D
A lot on here seem to know the intimate details of Bohs' finances so I'd like to hear from one or more of you exactly what the actual judgement was that was handed down today?
- How is that interpereted?
- Did Albion actually pay a penny for the land behind the tramway end - if so how much. If not how much is due to Bohs?
- Have Costs been awared either way today?
- How many million euro drops Carroll has actually given Bohs to date (if any)?
- What this in reality means to the original deal?
- The valuation impact with regard to the slow down but also considering that the recent council planning zoned Phibsboro as ok for high rise development (something that wasnt in effect at the time of the original deal),
- And why is access an issue (as per a previous poster) considering that there would be ample access from the other end of the ground.
- And why are some of you saying they bought the league considering they aparently didnt have anywhere near the top budget in the Premier Division - someone elsewhere said 4th or 5th.
Curious to see what this actually means to Bohs and the league in general
Anyone?
galwayhoop
07/11/2008, 2:19 PM
Shels didnt go to the wall, despite the wishes of a lot of posters from clubs around the country who have suffered their own financial problems this year!!!!!!!
Bottom line Shels are still here and hopefully back in the Premier next season
ok i was trying to make a point with a short post, so seen as you need to have specifics and exacts on this site....
2006 champions... shels... spent/borrowed money they didn't have, ran up debts to all and sundry... got relegated by the league... lost all their players
2007 champions... drogs...spent money they didn't have, ran up debts to all and sundry... entered examinership... probably lose all their players
2008 champions... bohs...spent money they didn't have, could potentially be facing debts of 6m, could lose their ground... probably lose all their players
now that we have a more indepth run down is it any less embarrassing??
A lot on here seem to know the intimate details of Bohs' finances so I'd like to hear from one or more of you exactly what the actual judgement was that was handed down today?
Its 130 pages long. My friend was in court and picked out some titbits for me.
- How is that interpereted?
Bohs were very unhappy with the decision
- Did Albion actually pay a penny for the land behind the tramway end - if so how much. If not how much is due to Bohs?
Albion have paid over 1 million to Bohs so far
- Have Costs been awared either way today?
No. Deferred to later date.
- How many million euro drops Carroll has actually given Bohs to date (if any)?
- What this in reality means to the original deal?
The original deal is dead, as the details have been altered. Bohs can't sell the same thing twice.
- And why is access an issue (as per a previous poster) considering that there would be ample access from the other end of the ground.
There is not ample access from the other end of the ground
- And why are some of you saying they bought the league considering they aparently didnt have anywhere near the top budget in the Premier Division - someone elsewhere said 4th or 5th.
Bohs had easily one of the top budgets in the league. No one knows the figures of all clubs but common sense would tell you that only Cork, Drogheda or Pats could claim the top spot form Bohs.
galwayhoop
07/11/2008, 2:28 PM
- The valuation impact with regard to the slow down but also considering that the recent council planning zoned Phibsboro as ok for high rise development (something that wasnt in effect at the time of the original deal),
the area could be zoned for building up to the moon but the land in reality is, in the current environment worth €0 on the open market. harsh but true.
perhaps it could have a paper value of somewhere between €10 - €15 million but the reality is that there are no purchasers/developers/speculators out there at the moment and even if they were there is no bank that would fund them.
even if a bank did fund them they would not fund the construction costs and hypothetically lets say there was a bank that funded both of these (land purchase and development) any potential purchasers would not get the funding they needed to buy the apartments or open up their businesses - therefore the developer (if there was one) would not take the chance.
in short as a development venture the site has no real value, in real terms, in todays market.
the lands only value is in it's current use.
father ted
07/11/2008, 2:41 PM
Look Dfx where would the craic be without them . I cant think of any rhyme for
in Harristown/abbotstown farm! Maybe they could sell to Mick Wallace as well
and
ground share with Wexford .Would enjoy the odd weekend in Courtown
ofjames
07/11/2008, 2:50 PM
is there any way bohs can buy albion out of their deal and keep to the terms agreed with carroll.
of course that assumes bohs being able to raise the millions required to do this
is there any way bohs can buy albion out of their deal and keep to the terms agreed with carroll.
of course that assumes bohs being able to raise the millions required to do this
Bohs tried, and Albion rejected.
jinxy lilywhite
07/11/2008, 2:55 PM
it's not uncommon for people who hold access like what albion do getting pretty close to what the whole site is actually worth. Access is worth a lot of money.
OneRedArmy
07/11/2008, 2:57 PM
it's not uncommon for people who hold access like what albion do getting pretty close to what the whole site is actually worth. Access is worth a lot of money.USED to be worth money.
Nothing is worth any money anymore (comparatively ;) )
bigmac
07/11/2008, 2:59 PM
perhaps it could have a paper value of somewhere between 10 - 15 million but the reality is that there are no purchasers/developers/speculators out there at the moment and even if they were there is no bank that would fund them.
Disagree - if you're talking of a figure that low compared to the original 65 estimate, then there are plenty of people out there who'd pay that for the site. Even to sit on for 10 years, there are a lot of people who'd view it as a more stable investment than most in the current climate.
OneRedArmy
07/11/2008, 3:02 PM
Disagree - if you're talking of a figure that low compared to the original 65 estimate, then there are plenty of people out there who'd pay that for the site. Even to sit on for 10 years, there are a lot of people who'd view it as a more stable investment than most in the current climate.Who?
Where are these people going to get the money?
None of the current Irish developers paid more than a nominal amount of each development with their own money.
Rιiteoir
07/11/2008, 3:03 PM
They wouldn't be able to find Tallaght, yet alone play there. :D
It's somewhere south of Cabra. :D
iirc - it's somewhere in North Wicklow
McShels
07/11/2008, 3:07 PM
ok i was trying to make a point with a short post, so seen as you need to have specifics and exacts on this site....
2006 champions... shels... spent/borrowed money they didn't have, ran up debts to all and sundry... got relegated by the league... lost all their players
2007 champions... drogs...spent money they didn't have, ran up debts to all and sundry... entered examinership... probably lose all their players
2008 champions... bohs...spent money they didn't have, could potentially be facing debts of 6m, could lose their ground... probably lose all their players
now that we have a more indepth run down is it any less embarrassing??
I didnt ask for specifics, I was just correcting what you stated that Shels went to the wall which was crap!!!!
I know what happened to Shels and we got what was coming to us,simple as.
My problem with it and always will be is the absolute delight some "fans" from a lot of clubs "danced on our grave". But we are now (hopefully) going to return to the premier league and begin to build our way back to the top of the LOI tree
ofjames
07/11/2008, 3:09 PM
lads, take a look at the following link
http://www.dublincity.ie/SiteCollectionDocuments/Chapter6%203%20Phibs%20Village%20Centre%20Pg%2082-85.pdf
it is taken from the council's Local Area Plan for Phibsborough and displays images of the development they envisage (and which they presumably only will grant permission for) in phibsborough village.
as you will see, the plan they have is to knock the shopping centre and create a public plaza that stretches from the main road right through what is now dalymount turf all the way through to the school end.
surely if this is the development that will take place on these sites in the future, it renders the issue of access to the land bohs own far less relevant to the value of their plot?????
My problem with it and always will be is the absolute delight some "fans" from a lot of clubs "danced on our grave".
Hello there! I laughed when you went tits up. Still do.
iirc - it's somewhere in North Wicklow
Worst comeback ever. particularly with todays news
BohDiddley
07/11/2008, 3:14 PM
What a truly revolting spectacle.
An eL club loses a critical case against a property developer and the verdict is greeted with unbridled joy and the usual half-baked, ill-informed gloating from the boards' rabble of self-appointed football finance gurus. Ugly.
If anyone thinks this is good for the league, then you are as misguided as the people who put Bohemian FC in this position.
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