Drogs penalty-possible FAI Smudge?

[Rovers Maniac]

This is looking more and more like the classic FAI smudge, Drogs have yet not got a penalty against them and the rumor is they won't be getting a 10 point deduction either like Cork. It seems because Drogheda were 'straight with the FAI' they will lessen the penalty to a much smaller deduction or a fine. This is also a rumor that is circulating on the Drogs forum and in the word of one poster "Europe is still on". It seems Drogheda are saying they are only in debt because of the stadium and not because they have given massive contracts to their players whom they can't pay now as well as not being able to pay the tax man.

I hope that the FAI do not pull this trick, but it is exactly the tone of some quotes by an FAI official the day after the news broke that Drogs were in trouble and it looks like happening now. Cork City got notification of their deduction within 8 days after they announced they would be applying for Examinership, but yet nothing from the FAI in relation to Drogs.

It is not a mandatory penalty of 10 points if you enter examinership it is up to a disciplinary committee instead to give the verdict. I think here we have one rule for one club and another for another. It should be the same as you have in England which is the a minimum points detuction. Interesting times ahead and i hope i proved wrong.

[Jeebus]

This is looking more and more like the classic FAI smudge, Drogs have yet not got a penalty against them and the rumor is they won't be getting a 10 point deduction either like Cork. It seems because Drogheda were 'straight with the FAI' they will lessen the penalty to a much smaller deduction or a fine. This is also a rumor that is circulating on the Drogs forum and in the word of one poster "Europe is still on". It seems Drogheda are saying they are only in debt because of the stadium and not because they have given massive contracts to their players whom they can't pay now as well as not being able to pay the tax man.

I hope that the FAI do not pull this trick, but it is exactly the tone of some quotes by an FAI official the day after the news broke that Drogs were in trouble and it looks like happening now. Cork City got notification of their deduction within 8 days after they announced they would be applying for Examinership, but yet nothing from the FAI in relation to Drogs.

It is not a mandatory penalty of 10 points if you enter examinership it is up to a disciplinary committee instead to give the verdict. I think here we have one rule for one club and another for another. It should be the same as you have in England which is the a minimum points detuction. Interesting times ahead and i hope i proved wrong.

Surely the 10 point deduction is mandatory or examinership????

[SMorgan]

Surely the 10 point deduction is mandatory or examinership????

No, the points deduction is not mandatory and it could be more or it could be less. I am of the opinion that Drogheda will received the same sanction that was imposed on Cork City.

Its natural that comparison will be made between Cork City and Drogheda United and I am sure a lot of people will be watching to ensure there is consistency in the handling of the cases.

Of course the 2 cases are different. Are we ever likely to get 2 identical cases?

Drogheda owe only 60% of the amount Cork did. However, Drogheda owe twice as much as Cork did to Revenue. As somebody once said, its not so much how much you owe, its who you owe it to. Owing money to the Revenue is better than owing it to the local drug dealer, but perhaps not a hell of a lot. They will pursue their money with vengeance.

The owners of Cork City disappeared before the club went into administration, but in Drogheda’s case they are still around. This is being presented as a positive by Drogheda's fans, but I am not sure. I am sure those involved at Cork City would have made the point that any sanction imposed would not punish those that caused the problem as they were well gone and don't care. Those that caused the problem at Drogheda are still there and in place and will have to deal with any sanction imposed.

There is also ownership of the grounds. Cork City don't own the ground they use, end of. Drogheda are taking comfort from the fact that United Park is theirs, but if anybody comes looking, its not really theirs. There is no doubt that Drogheda United has a significant interest in United Park that is likely to be considered an asset that can be disposed of should a creditor come looking. This, "we have sole use of the ground and we can sell the ground and use the proceeds to buy a new ground, but we don't own the ground" is unlikely to stand the test of a High Court case.

Also if Drogheda say that the ground is not theirs, then they are basically saying thay are assetless. Is it really in their interest to say that? I don't know.

My opinion is that both Shamrock Rovers and Cork City were in much stronger positions than Drogheda United are currently in. However, that's only my observation which may well be wrong. Some are arguing the Drogheda are in a much stronger position than Cork.

[brianw82]

Each case should be assessed on its own merits, but there should be some points deduction at least.
This is just to be fair, I'm not saying this because a points deduction for Drogheda increases our chances of getting into Europe/Setanta Cup, which is the impression I get from the lads above (correct me if I'm wrong, please!)

[tiktok]

It seems because Drogheda were 'straight with the FAI' they will lessen the penalty to a much smaller deduction or a fine.

Drogs fans seem to be basing this on the fact that they were straight with the FAI over the stadium issues. They're not gone into examinership because their planning permission was denied, they're gone into examinership because the owners of the club owe a huge amount of money to creditors and can't pay it, I'm not so sure they were straight with the FAI about that.

Only difference between Cork and Drogs is that Arkaga could pay the creditors buit didn't want to and wanted out. Hoey et all claim they can't pay the creditors but want to hang around.

Any points deduction is made by an independent commission, our deduction was "for entering examinership", who we had told beforehand about our issies etc., didn't come into it. If Drogs are treated differently, Id be disappointed.

[Dodge]

Relax, it took a couple of weeks for the FAI to act on Cork. I'd imagine it'll be the same with Drogheda.

(Oh, and we had this dramaqueen **** then too)

[Rovers Maniac]

Well Cork and the rest of the league were informed quicker than this. In both cases the people pumping the funds into both clubs stopped as it was no longer a viable investment and pulled the plug (V Hoey two friends don't have their names) so the similiarites are pretty clear in both cases.
An interview in the the Indo on the Friday after the news that they (Drogs) were in trouble, that i first seen an indication being set by the FAI that Drogs were not going to be treated as harsly as Cork, so i am not sure how independent the independent committee if the FAI are already give clear indications that the sactions will not be as harsh. It would appear the decision was has been made already. As i said before i hope i am wrong and they get treated the same as what Cork got treated. Going forward i would say a 10 point mandatory deduction in place a club should receive for going into examinership and then depending on each case the committee can issue the club with an increase on that if they see fit.

Rant over from this drama queen :) but i do hope all clubs are treated the same as it gives more confidence in the league from a fan perspective as well as the general public.

[thischarmingman]

I'm not saying this because a points deduction for Drogheda increases our chances of getting into Europe/Setanta Cup, which is the impression I get from the lads above (correct me if I'm wrong, please!)

Dear God let's hope not. I'm sure it would be great for Sligo but would be an absolute disaster for the league and a blow to the hard work of the last few years.

[higgins]

Rovers got no points deduction for entering Examinership.

The FAI make it up as they go along so nothing would surprise me here...

[tiktok]

Well Cork and the rest of the league were informed quicker than this. .

We weren't, it took a couple of weeks.

[tiktok]

Rovers got no points deduction for entering Examinership.

The FAI make it up as they go along so nothing would surprise me here...

That pre-dated the current licensing rules, didn't it?

[Rovers Maniac]

We weren't, it took a couple of weeks.

I am pretty sure it took 8 days but fair enough if it did. I suppose only time well tell.

[tiktok]

I am pretty sure it took 8 days but fair enough if it did. I suppose only time well tell.

You're right actually, it was eight days, that still gives Drogs until early next week though.

[OneRedArmy]

Talking about FAI sanctions is like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic with Drogs oweing the Revenue 750k.

They haven't a hope of getting a license for next season without a TCC.

[Inside Man]

The league would offically became an utter disgrace if Drogs got away with this. The FAI simply must imply a 10 piont deduction at least. They must be consistant with desicions. I remember Longford got 6pts last year for just sending a bloody letter in late to the revenue. Drogs owe them 750k. Bit of realism is needed. Drogs will get 10pts deduction.

[passerrby]

Talking about FAI sanctions is like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic with Drogs oweing the Revenue 750k.

They haven't a hope of getting a license for next season without a TCC.

at least five clubs started this season without one as they had been given intrem tcc which is a copout

[brianw82]

What's a TCC?

[HarpoJoyce]

What's a TCC?

Tax Clearance Certificate usually issued by the Revenue Commissioners.



at least five clubs started this season without one as they had been given intrem tcc which is a copout

passerby if the Tax Clearance Certificate was issued by the Revenue Commissioners and fell within the accepted dates of the License Application then there is no reason for the Licensing Authority to refuse it.

[Candystripe]

Dear God let's hope not. I'm sure it would be great for Sligo but would be an absolute disaster for the league and a blow to the hard work of the last few years.

Do you think that Drogs would do better than Sligo in Europe next season?

Drogs would be lucky to even have 11 part-time players playing 1st division football!I think that would undo all the good results from the last few years more so.

Another thing, if Bohs court cases go belly up then how will they pay the massive overdraft they used this season?

[pineapple stu]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Funny, I thought Cork were docked ten points almost as soon as the examiner was confirmed (the problems were obvious from a while back when Arkaga pulled out), so the original post occurred to me too, but I could well be wrong. In that case, we're just waiting for the next meeting of the FAI licencing committee. Can't see how they can avoid a ten point deduction.

[passerrby]

take your point harpo but you are either tax compliant or you are not and licensing originally stated that you could not receive a licence if you were not but soon changed there tune when they realised they would not have 22 teams starting the season hence the acceptance of the intrem one

[OneRedArmy]

As an aside, should the thread title not read "possible FAI fudge"?

Or is the OP Rico in disguise?

[SMorgan]

Is that a rhetorical question?

Funny, I thought Cork were docked ten points almost as soon as the examiner was confirmed (the problems were obvious from a while back when Arkaga pulled out), so the original post occurred to me too, but I could well be wrong. In that case, we're just waiting for the next meeting of the FAI licencing committee. Can't see how they can avoid a ten point deduction.

My recollection is that the Examiner went to the FAI in the days after his appointment to ask that the sanction against Cork City be speedily delivered, as having the issue hanging over the club, for a prolonged period, would obstruct him in securing the clubs future. The body concerned duly obliged.

Its not necessarily a good sign for Drogheda United if the Examiner doesn't make a similar request to the FAI early next week. That may well be an indication that he'll have difficulty getting investment for the club.

[Billy Lord]

Rovers got no points deduction for entering Examinership.

The FAI make it up as they go along so nothing would surprise me here...

Rovers were deducted all points earned pre-examinership.

[Student Mullet]

Rovers were deducted all points earned pre-examinership.

Yes but the reason given for the points deduction was filing incorrect accounts.

[Billy Lord]

Yes but the reason given for the points deduction was filing incorrect accounts.

But they only accepted that the accounts were bogus when the club entered examinership and the truth became inescapable. Just as Drogheda's accounts are/were fictitious if they haven't paid the taxman as required by law and/or FAI rules. The precedents are obvious, regardless of semantics.

[Student Mullet]

But semantics become important when dealing with a rulebook.

[roversforever]

Dear God let's hope not. I'm sure it would be great for Sligo but would be an absolute disaster for the league and a blow to the hard work of the last few years.

The same sligo that derry have failed to beat on 3 occasions this season......

[dcfc1928]

The same sligo that derry have failed to beat on 3 occasions this season......

The very same. But would Sligo compete to the same level as Derry, Pats, Cork and Drogs have in Europe over the last few seasons? It would be interesting to find out and if yous do get a place by default because Cork and Drogs have lived above their means then good luck.

[Dodge]

The very same. But would Sligo compete to the same level as Derry, Pats, Cork and Drogs have in Europe over the last few seasons?

Oh yeah Sligo could easily lose to an Armenian side or lose 5-0 in denmark. No bother

[dcfc1928]

Oh yeah Sligo could easily lose to an Armenian side or lose 5-0 in denmark. No bother

Could yous beat former UEFA Cup winners home and away for instance or hold the likes of PSG scoreless at home or score five away from home against Scotland's representatives? As I said it would be interesting.

[Red&White Rover]

I don't know how Sligo Rovers would be bad for the league in Europe?

We play nice football, nice little ground, we'll have a decent amount of fans. Not to mention how good we could have been this season, if we'd had a small portion of Luck come our way at various times...

I'm lost as to how we'll be a "disaster" to the league...

[tiktok]

But would Sligo compete to the same level as Derry, Pats, Cork and Drogs have in Europe over the last few seasons?

Would Cork and Drogs now compete to the same level as Derry, Pats, Cork and Drogs have in Europe over the last few seasons? For the record, CCFC were rubbish in Europe this season, we managed a home 2-2 draw and then lost 4-0 away.

We'll have four teams earning coefficient points next season for the first time.
Bohs, Pats, Derry from the league.
Potentially Galway if they won the cup.
Sligo, Shamrock Rovers, Drogs, CCFC in contention if Galway don't win the cup, but with CCFC and Drogs unlikely (IMO) to get a UEFA licence.
As it stands and looking at how the teams involved will be set-up next season, Sligo are probably the best option for that fourth spot.

[Mr A]

Considering the state of the league, the co efficient is the least of our bloody problems.

[Dodge]

Could yous beat former UEFA Cup winners home and away for instance or hold the likes of PSG scoreless at home or score five away from home against Scotland's representatives? As I said it would be interesting.
Yous being Pats? Yeah I'd say our run this year was equal to yours a few years ago. Fine runs both of them. Just hate the way fans of certain club have selective memories about european campaigns.
If Sligo get in next year, I wish them the best. They'll be doing it for themselves and not the league.


I'm lost as to how we'll be a "disaster" to the league...
It wouldn't be, regrdless of the results. Some people just like complaining about everything on the internet. Every Irish club that has entered europe has had disappointing results.

[Rovers Maniac]

TO be honest i started the thread and i suppose i was thinking more of the getting into the setanta cup the UEFA Cup. Anyway if Galway win their semi final my understanding is they will get into the UEFA Cup? So all this talk of us being a disaster will be folly.

[Dodge]

Galway would need to either win the Cup, or lose to Bohs in the final. If they lost to Pats in the final (howver ridiculous that seems) they'd get nothing

There's no way I can see Drogheda getting a licence for europe next year, and if there's a similar rule to the rule that stops UK clubs entering europe if they've been in administration it'd mean that Cork couldn't enter europe either.

[pineapple stu]

I think we're going to have to start getting used to not drawing with Kiev from now on, to be honest. Complaining that Sligo won't do as well as clubs have done in the past few years shows an amazing ignorance as to what actually caused those few good results.


Every Irish club that has entered europe has had disappointing results.
Curse that disappointing home draw against the Bulgarian team with two senior internationals. :)

[sligoman]

Galway would need to either win the Cup, or lose to Bohs in the final. If they lost to Pats in the final (howver ridiculous that seems) they'd get nothingWhy's that? I was under the impression that if Galway got past Derry then they were guaranteed the 4th spot in Europe no matter what. This makes things a bit more interesting for us now*:)

*Although I still expect Derry to beat Galway anyway

[GenerationXI]

Would Cork and Drogs now compete to the same level as Derry, Pats, Cork and Drogs have in Europe over the last few seasons? For the record, CCFC were rubbish in Europe this season, we managed a home 2-2 draw and then lost 4-0 away.

We'll have four teams earning coefficient points next season for the first time.
Bohs, Pats, Derry from the league.
Potentially Galway if they won the cup.
Sligo, Shamrock Rovers, Drogs, CCFC in contention if Galway don't win the cup, but with CCFC and Drogs unlikely (IMO) to get a UEFA licence.
As it stands and looking at how the teams involved will be set-up next season, Sligo are probably the best option for that fourth spot.

God don't wish that on any of us. It looks like they'll avoid relegation too if Drogs do get their deduction. I'm sickened.:(

What of Bohs? I saw on the congratulations thread people were bringing things up about them having bought the league etc. Can anyone say with certainty A) What teams are in financial trouble which will incure sanctions from the FAI? B) Who is likely to be relegated as a consequence of such irregularities?

[Dodge]

Why's that? I was under the impression that if Galway got past Derry then they were guaranteed the 4th spot in Europe no matter what. This makes things a bit more interesting for us now*:)


The cup losers only ever get in if they lose the final to the league champions (i.e. double winners). EUFA rank the Cup winners ahead of 2nd in league.

So if, for example, Pats beat galway in the FAI final, and the league table finished as

1 Bohs
2 Pats
3 Derry
4 Sligo

The Euro qualifiers would be (depending on licenses etc etc) Bohs, Pats, Derry. Sligo

Presuming the 1,2,3 in the league is Bohs, Pats, Derry (or Derry/Pats) and Galway lose the semi on Sunday, 4th will be guarenteed Europa League ;)

[scej]

The cup losers only ever get in if they lose the final to the league champions (i.e. double winners).

I thought part of the new UEFA Cup criteria was that losing cup finalists no longer qualify, even if they lose to the league champions.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Cup)

Cup winners who have already qualified for European competition via league placing will no longer hand their UEFA Europa League slot to the losing finalist. Their place in the competition will instead devolve onto the highest-placed team in the league not yet in European competition.

[Dodge]

That wasn't implemented. It was proposed but didn't receive enough votes AFAIK. Wiki doesn't reference anything, and the original BBC report that announced it has been changed

So, AFAIK, its status quo with regards to cup final losers

[sligored]

I thought part of the new UEFA Cup criteria was that losing cup finalists no longer qualify, even if they lose to the league champions.

From Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA_Cup)

Cup winners who have already qualified for European competition via league placing will no longer hand their UEFA Europa League slot to the losing finalist. Their place in the competition will instead devolve onto the highest-placed team in the league not yet in European competition.

man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

[Dodge]

man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

It only works with teams who have qualified for Champions League. So if Cardiff lost to Man U, they'd have been in.

man City qualfied for europe through the UEFA Fair play spot

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

man city finished behind portsmouth in england last year but man city ended up in europe and i am pretty sure cardiff did not despite being cup runner ups.

Portsmouth didn't qualify for Europe through the league. They came mid table. City only got in on the fair play or by playing Intertoto or something like that.

Not sure if this is the way it works but this was my impression of how it worked

If the winners of the cup have qualified for the Champions League (double winners thus in Ireland) tbe place for the cup final goes to the runners up as the CL qualification is seen as better then the qualification for the cup.

If they finished in a place for the UEFA Cup in the league the Cup is seen as greater so they are seen to have taken the UEFA spot that was there for winning the cup and then the UEFA spot for the league goes to the next placed team

[holidaysong]

If the winners of the cup have qualified for the Champions League (double winners thus in Ireland) tbe place for the cup final goes to the runners up as the CL qualification is seen as better then the qualification for the cup.

If they finished in a place for the UEFA Cup in the league the Cup is seen as greater so they are seen to have taken the UEFA spot that was there for winning the cup and then the UEFA spot for the league goes to the next placed team

Correct.

And as Dodge stated, it was proposed that cup runnners-up couldn't qualify for the Europa League but it wasn't actually implemented.

[passerrby]

Correct.

And as Dodge stated, it was proposed that cup runnners-up couldn't qualify for the Europa League but it wasn't actually implemented.

afaik it is in after next season

[Dodge]

Any sources? Couldn't find any

(and don't mean this to be smartarsey, genuinely I've been looking for stuff on europe next year)

[Rovers Maniac]

afaik it is in after next season

Pretty sure the new rules were being brought in with start of this new Europa League or whatever it is called now. But that is open to correction but i thought that was the one thing i gathered from the whole thing. :o:)