Drogs penalty-possible FAI Smudge?

[higgins]

Rovers were deducted all points earned pre-examinership.


They had to punish you somehow so came up with the magic 8 points (which just happened to be your total at the time) for the accounts being the same two years running.

Rovers were not docked a single point for going into examinership.

[passerrby]

Any sources? Couldn't find any

(and don't mean this to be smartarsey, genuinely I've been looking for stuff on europe next year)

am 95% sure but will get confirmation and get back to you

[holidaysong]

Are Drogheda going to get a points deduction then or what? :confused:

[Rovers Maniac]

Are Drogheda going to get a points deduction then or what? :confused:

Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

[holidaysong]

Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

Thanks.

[Mr A]

Licsening Committee are to meet next monday in regards to it.

But will they only be discussing Drogheda I wonder...

[pete]

It is the Licencing Body (or similar one) that issues the points deduction so until they sit Drogs keep their points. It is correct the Examiner asked that City situation be decided quickly. I would be amazed is Drogs did not get 10 point deduction as it was explained that we got it for entering Examinership & as such nothing really to do with licencing or 65% rule which have yet to be decided.

From the outside Drogs look in much worse situation. CCFC would be gone if we did not sell Mooney (to pay Examiner up front) & we would not have been able to afford even modest repayment of debts if didn't have the potential for significant cut of Doyle transfer.

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

[HarpoJoyce]

It is the Licencing Body (or similar one) that issues the points deduction so until they sit Drogs keep their points. It is correct the Examiner asked that City situation be decided quickly. I would be amazed is Drogs did not get 10 point deduction as it was explained that we got it for entering Examinership & as such nothing really to do with licencing or 65% rule which have yet to be decided.

From the outside Drogs look in much worse situation. CCFC would be gone if we did not sell Mooney (to pay Examiner up front) & we would not have been able to afford even modest repayment of debts if didn't have the potential for significant cut of Doyle transfer.

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

Application for Examinership by Shamrock Rovers, Cork City and Drogheda United was always about protecting the name of the club and never about recognising responsibility towards their creditors.

I have defended Drogheda Utd.'s actions in recent years because I believe 'investment needs to be rewarded' (climbing up the table, increased European participation)
But now I'm with the Revenue Commisioners on this one. They have my best interets at heart.

[Rovers Maniac]

But will they only be discussing Drogheda I wonder...

Do you expect Harps to get punished?

[Dodge]

I still can't understand how Drogs can afford to pay the Examiner 250k up front & not afford to pay debtors. :confused:

Drogheda have some very wealthy directors behind them. Not that hard to understand surely?

[bohs til i die]

Drogheda have some very wealthy directors behind them. Not that hard to understand surely?




well it is when the debts are only 3 times the cost of examinership. If the 250k was used to service debts they could then look at saving money in other areas to reduce the debt further.

I have a feeling that they will hope to get the debt cleared at a cost of maybe 500k (including cost of examinership) because they know a 10 point hit wont really hurt them a lot. Then they will probably try to start with a clean slate next year without going part time. Maybe Im being too cynical here but when that Hoey dude keeps talking about next year like nothing much will change, they hoep to get the new ground etc, it strikes me as suspicious.

Also, they got a licence this year on the back of the new ground being in the pipeline, and know they wont get one next year unless they can produce all sort of sob stories.

[pineapple stu]

I have a feeling that they will hope to get the debt cleared at a cost of maybe 500k (including cost of examinership) because they know a 10 point hit wont really hurt them a lot.
In which case, you could well imagine the rich directors paying for examinership to get out of other debts, I suppose.

Though if the lads intend staying on with minimal changes, I can't see how Drogheda can get out of examinership, to be honest.

[Mr A]

Wasn't it touch and go that they would even get in to examinership without being wound up?

[pineapple stu]

Revenue objected, if that's what you mean. They'll presumably objcet to any non-100% settlement too, and Drogs have no sell-on clauses to butter any deals.

[forza rovers]

so was the decision made today?

[WoodquayBoy]

10 point penalty just announced, effective immediately. I'll be up to Sligo next year to watch them in Europe, putting provincial rivarly aside, come on the Bit O Red

[HarpoJoyce]

so was the decision made today?


10 point penalty just announced, effective immediately. I'll be up to Sligo next year to watch them in Europe, putting provincial rivarly aside, come on the Bit O Red

Bring 'Jumbo' Brennan back!

[sligoman]

We're not there yet, seems FAI will help Cork (http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/soccer/mhideyojsnsn) get into Europe if they finish 4th, so hopes of Cork getting European licence improved a bit. We need 4th to guarantee it, hope Pat's win tomorrow and then we'll go to Cork on Friday 2 points clear;).

[Inside Man]

We're not there yet, seems FAI will help Cork (http://www.breakingnews.ie/sport/soccer/mhideyojsnsn) get into Europe if they finish 4th, so hopes of Cork getting European licence improved a bit.
Unfair if true. No other way of putting it. They didn't stay within the rules and they deserve to sit out their punishment. Can't see eufa allowing this.

[Mr A]

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

[blackholesun]

Unfair if true. No other way of putting it. They didn't stay within the rules and they deserve to sit out their punishment. Can't see eufa allowing this.

Disgrace if true, if there is such a rule in place then it should be applied to which ever clubs goes into administration or examinership.

Personally I think thought that this is just waffle so not as to scare off any "investors" :rolleyes: who might be sniffing around Drogs and wouldnt like to hear that this will also apply to Drogs.

I think Platini's "its the cheats who are winning" quote is telling and I cant see UEFA allowing a fudge of this rule.

bhs

[Rovers Maniac]

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.


Not sure if it is a story at all, i would be fearful if the FAI were handing out the license but it is UEFA and they seem pretty strict although i hoped the FAI would clarify things by now. They can hardly turn around and say we won't support one of our clubs if they finish in a European place but not sure how much support they could actually give Cork to getting the UEFA license.

Not even the FAI could attempt a fudge of this proportion and if it did come form a FAI official it is fairly disgraceful.

[Student Mullet]

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.Good point.

[Trainee]

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

Going into examinership is a 10 point deduction, only further action that can be taken is the FAI licencing committee not to award a club a licence next year.

Cork have come out of examinership and If they are able to comply with the licence committee requirments to get a prem licence, FAI will grant them one and no further action will be taken( I reckon they will get a prem licence next season)

Drogs have get out of examinership to have a chance of prem licence and then the ground will be a problem as its not prem standard(too early to say but if Drogs get out examinership in a reasonable shape by Dec and agree a ground share they may have a chance to get a prem licence)

[MariborKev]

Are the 2009 licence application not submitted at this stage,AFAIK the deadline was last week?

Could be a few interesting ones to consider.......

[blackholesun]

Going into examinership is a 10 point deduction, only further action that can be taken is the FAI licencing committee not to award a club a licence next year.

Cork have come out of examinership and If they are able to comply with the licence committee requirments to get a prem licence, FAI will grant them one and no further action will be taken( I reckon they will get a prem licence next season)

Drogs have get out of examinership to have a chance of prem licence and then the ground will be a problem as its not prem standard(too early to say but if Drogs get out examinership in a reasonable shape by Dec and agree a ground share they may have a chance to get a prem licence)

Agreed, at this stage would be amazed if Cork are not in the premier next year but would be surprised if Drogs were.

bhs

[srfc1928]

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.
Exactly
This would be a disgrace if true.

[Jofspring]

If Drogs go down and Shels don't get promoted two out of the last three LOI Champions will be playing in the First Divison come next season :eek::rolleyes:

[BulmersKid]

Bloody hell. On one hand they're saying clubs have to run themselves properly, on the other they're saying clubs should escape a Euro ban for screwing themselves up.

A clear signal that there will be no further sanctions on CCFC as well for licensing violations.

Why should they be punished twice for the same cime. They were punished for licensing violations. They got a 10 point deduction.

Anyway, for they way the club has orgainsied itself on and off the filed since their owners left them high and dry, I think that they should get some reward for turning things around.

Its not their fault that the league is so badthat a team with a 10point decution can still qualify for Europe. If they are good enough to qualify on merit then let them. They should not be disqualifed by a technicality off the field that has nothing to do with performances on the field.

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.

[Battery Rover]

Are the 2009 licence application not submitted at this stage,AFAIK the deadline was last week?

Only the structural part of licensing. Staff, youth development etc

Financials not due in until 31st January

[Mr A]

Why should they be punished twice for the same cime. They were punished for licensing violations. They got a 10 point deduction.

Anyway, for they way the club has orgainsied itself on and off the filed since their owners left them high and dry, I think that they should get some reward for turning things around.

Its not their fault that the league is so badthat a team with a 10point decution can still qualify for Europe. If they are good enough to qualify on merit then let them. They should not be disqualifed by a technicality off the field that has nothing to do with performances on the field.

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.

Of course, the fact that they're still in the running for Europe has a lot to do with spending vastly more than was coming in... I know that Cork were screwed by the Arkaga guys, but changing ownership should not be a ticket to escaping the consequences of your actions.

If the FAI wants to be taken seriously on the issue of regulating the clubs financially then there has to be more than a slap on the wrists for issues like this.

[OneRedArmy]

As I think someone said above, UEFA issue the European licenses, so its their call.

Thankfully.

[bohs til i die]

Why should they be punished twice for the same cime. They were punished for licensing violations. They got a 10 point deduction.

Anyway, for they way the club has orgainsied itself on and off the filed since their owners left them high and dry, I think that they should get some reward for turning things around.

Its not their fault that the league is so badthat a team with a 10point decution can still qualify for Europe. If they are good enough to qualify on merit then let them. They should not be disqualifed by a technicality off the field that has nothing to do with performances on the field.

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.


If you look at England for example, several clubs have gone into administration towards the end of a season knowing the points deduction wont affect them but then the FA copped on and carried the points deduction forward to the following season.

Cork and Drogheda wont be relegated, they'll spend more then they should and the penalty in one case might not actually matter one bit if one of the two clubs gets into Europe. They'll return at the start of next season having had their debts wiped for a fraction of the cost and with a decent chance of winning trophies.

Why should clubs then get themselves in order if they can pull strokes like this?

As much as this comes down to clubs acting in a proper fashion, it also needs the FAI to put rules and regulations in place which make sure a club is punished accordingly.

[dublinred]

Why should they be punished twice for the same cime. They were punished for licensing violations. They got a 10 point deduction.

Anyway, for they way the club has orgainsied itself on and off the filed since their owners left them high and dry, I think that they should get some reward for turning things around.

Its not their fault that the league is so badthat a team with a 10point decution can still qualify for Europe. If they are good enough to qualify on merit then let them. They should not be disqualifed by a technicality off the field that has nothing to do with performances on the field.

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.

Its obvious from the size of the debts whcih required examinership in both cases that Cork and Drogs were living well above their means for most of the season prior to going into examinership , Galway , Sligo and other clubs had to offload players to comply with regulations and both would be higher up the table if they didn't have to do this , whatever about the FAI I can't see UEFA allowing clubs to spend money they don't have to qualify for Europe , it would be like Hull City signing Ronaldo and Torres paying them and no-one else for a few months get enough points and then apply to write off the other debts built up to thier local creditors and the taxman take a 10 point deduction and still qualify for the champions league then use the money this generates to pay off the remaining debts.

[Duffman]

Anyway its about time the FAI helped the Eircom League of Ireland clubs out.


I'm up for correction but didn't the FAI do just that years ago when they bought up Drogheda and Corks grounds for them?

[BulmersKid]

Of course, the fact that they're still in the running for Europe has a lot to do with spending vastly more than was coming in... I know that Cork were screwed by the Arkaga guys, but changing ownership should not be a ticket to escaping the consequences of your actions.

If the FAI wants to be taken seriously on the issue of regulating the clubs financially then there has to be more than a slap on the wrists for issues like this.

If that is the case so, every club (with the exception of two in Rovers and UCD) should punished in the same way for, as you put it, "spending vastly more than was coming in... "

Just cause cork went down the examinership route to reign in their finances, shouldn't be a factor in weather they compete in Europe or not. If they are awarded A UEFA licence then they should be allowed play.

All the examinership process did was aggree a payment system with the creditors. All but one agreed to this system(the revenue), and the High Court thought it was fair as well.

[BulmersKid]

I'm up for correction but didn't the FAI do just that years ago when they bought up Drogheda and Corks grounds for them?

Bought Drogs stadium. The Munster FA always owned Turners Cross, where every local pub league final is played

[Jeebus]

Just cause cork went down the examinership route to reign in their finances, shouldn't be a factor in weather they compete in Europe or not. If they are awarded A UEFA licence then they should be allowed play.

All the examinership process did was aggree a payment system with the creditors. All but one agreed to this system(the revenue), and the High Court thought it was fair as well.

Fcuk it, in that case i think every club should go down this line next year:rolleyes:

So you thinks it ok for a club/company to spend way above their means, gain an advantage on their competitors, and then apply to the courts to go into examinership in order to pay their creditors a small fraction of what they owe them?

[pete]

AFAIK City won't get a licence if the players are no paid. It is not up to the FAI to police other business debts.

We have already started to pay the creditors more money as they get a cut of Setanta Cup prize money. They will also receive cut of LOI position prize money. If Kevin Doyle is sold in January it is very likely that we will have paid the creditors back close to all the monies owed.

[Dodge]

I'll be astonished if either Cork or Drogheda are in europe next year. UEFA have far stricter financial guidelines than the FAI

[pineapple stu]

We have already started to pay the creditors more money as they get a cut of Setanta Cup prize money. They will also receive cut of LOI position prize money. If Kevin Doyle is sold in January it is very likely that we will have paid the creditors back close to all the monies owed.
I can't see how that can be true at all.

Creditors were what - E1.3m? About 10% was paid up front, averaging Revenue (15%) and others (7½%), so E1.17m is left. They get 50% of the Setanta earnings (E75k to them) and of the league prize money (another E20k to them?). So you've still got E1.1m, give or take, to clear from Kevin Doyle's sale. What's your sell on clause? It'd want to be damn good to fetch that much!

[pete]

I can't see how that can be true at all.

Creditors were what - E1.3m? About 10% was paid up front, averaging Revenue (15%) and others (7½%), so E1.17m is left. They get 50% of the Setanta earnings (E75k to them) and of the league prize money (another E20k to them?). So you've still got E1.1m, give or take, to clear from Kevin Doyle's sale. What's your sell on clause? It'd want to be damn good to fetch that much!

10% from Doyle which should be good for E1m conservatively. I also believe the 1.3m included players wages up to end of the season which I believe will or have been paid.

[pineapple stu]

E10m for Doyle "conservative"? Don't think so. Possible yes, but not conservative. Though I didn't realise it was that high.

I've heard the "players' wages have been paid; it was all a glitch" line before.

[Mr A]

Will the players receive the 70% they're owed for the time in examinership? And will they continue to be paid after the end of the season? And don't the creditors only get half of the 10% sell on clause?

[pineapple stu]

Yeah, forgot about that. So he'd have to go for E22k to clear the balance.

[BulmersKid]

I can't see how that can be true at all.

Creditors were what - E1.3m? About 10% was paid up front, averaging Revenue (15%) and others (7½%), so E1.17m is left. They get 50% of the Setanta earnings (E75k to them) and of the league prize money (another E20k to them?). So you've still got E1.1m, give or take, to clear from Kevin Doyle's sale. What's your sell on clause? It'd want to be damn good to fetch that much!

From the little I know, the debt of 1.3m also inlcde the players wages to the end of the season. I am open to correction on this. This will have to be paid if Cork are to get a Premier Divison license, otherwise they will be relegated like SHels were.

Now Tom Coughlan, the new ower is suppose to have stumped up the money to pay the players.

The rest, however much that is, is being payed back on future revenues brought in on 50% sell-on clause from future sales of Doyle, O'Donovan, Bennett, Long and Meyler and prize money.

Already around €100k is should be paid back to the creditors from setata cup prise money and gate receipts.

And as pete says, Doyles protential transfer will clear a huge slice of the debt.

As I said all examinership did for City was agree a payment plan. And it the creditors are happy with that, don't see why other fans should be upset.

[pete]

Will the players receive the 70% they're owed for the time in examinership? And will they continue to be paid after the end of the season? And don't the creditors only get half of the 10% sell on clause?

I believe so.

Maybe E10m is a big high now I checked exchange rate. I'll revise to E7.5m or 6m queens money.

Given the players were on 30%+ wages their portion of the debt would be fairly high - I would guess something like 50%.

[pineapple stu]

I believe so.

Maybe E10m is a big high now I checked exchange rate. I'll revise to E7.5m or 6m queens money.
Which would mean the creditors get 5% (half of 10%), or E400k. A long way from clearing the creditors, as per your OP.

Seriously doubt the players were owed E600k in the two weeks between gonig to 30% wages and the E1.3m figure being announced. I'd say it includes minimal wages.


From the little I know, the debt of 1.3m also inlcde the players wages to the end of the season. I am open to correction on this. This will have to be paid if Cork are to get a Premier Divison license, otherwise they will be relegated like SHels were.

As I said all examinership did for City was agree a payment plan. And it the creditors are happy with that, don't see why other fans should be upset.
On the first part, seeing the the FAI are trying to circumvent UEFA rules to get you into Europe, I wouldn't be surprised to see a fudge on that issue. An agreement to defer is enough, for example.

On the second part, assuming it was still directed at me, I'm not saying I'm upset or not, I'm just challenging Pete's suggestion that creditors will be almost entirely paid if Doyle goes.

[BulmersKid]

Fcuk it, in that case i think every club should go down this line next year:rolleyes:

So you thinks it ok for a club/company to spend way above their means, gain an advantage on their competitors, and then apply to the courts to go into examinership in order to pay their creditors a small fraction of what they owe them?

Other clubs mighten be as lucky if they enter administration/examinership.

Debts do still have to be paid. Ask Shams fans. They are still paying off debts occured when they went into administration

What they pay is a small fration up front. The rest later.

Cork were just lucky they don't own their own ground otherwise that would have been sold. The only asset they had was players contracts and sell-on clauses.

The creditors decided to take a slice of potential earnings from the sell on clauses.

[BulmersKid]

On the second part, assuming it was still directed at me, I'm not saying I'm upset or not, I'm just challenging Pete's suggestion that creditors will be almost entirely paid if Doyle goes.

Not directed at anyone in particular. There just seems to be a lot of bitterness about the way sucessful Cork got out of examinership.

All they did was use an assest they had to try to pay off a debt. Now this culd make more for the creditors. It could make less. Its a gamble. But if they are happy to agree who are we to judge them.


Seriously doubt the players were owed E600k in the two weeks between gonig to 30% wages and the E1.3m figure being announced. I'd say it includes minimal wages.

Its hard to know. I don't know the exact figures of who was owed what. But if you are to believe that City were paying 75k every forthnght in wages. 3 months wages equals 450k.

That 1.3m is a newspaper calculation. So will alway sbe sensationised or incllude more than it should.