FAI Fans Forum Abbotstown, Saturday

[A face]

Agree with initial post - attendance was terrible and while the FAI take a lot of heat, 4 of them took their entire saturday out to talk to fans - the fact that attendance was poor is disappointing.

Fran Gavin and Noel Mooney travelled to Cork after that and didn't finish up until after 10.00 or 11.00.

[Macy]

The reality of 60/70k viewers at 8pm on a Monday evening is a commercial failure.
Up against Eastenders and Corrie I would've thought that was pretty good going tbh. Whilst I appreciate the costs would be more for the football show, 8pm other week nights on RTE2 is brought in wildlife documentaries, so it obviously isn't that important a slot for them!

On the actual forum, I was under the impression it was invited, representative, fans rather than an open invite?

[dcfcsteve]

I find TG4's coverage amateur. Nothing to do with the language, i'd quite happily sit and watch it regardless, but the coverage is poor, not many camera angles covered, Charlie McGeever running from co-commentator to analyse before and after the game.

Setanta's coverage is probably the best, RTE's is good also. I just dont think TG4's is up to scratch, and McGeever laughing in commentary is cringeworthy, he does it all the time

I suspect their endless use of Charlie McKeever is due to a complete dearth of Irish-speaking individuals withe experience/knowledge of the league. As I raised previously in a thread on this matter, the contrast with Wales is astounding - where a large proportion of managers and players are interviewed in Welsh regularly.

If Roddy Collins learned a cupla focal he'd be on there regularly....:eek:

[OneRedArmy]

On the actual forum, I was under the impression it was invited, representative, fans rather than an open invite?3 fans from each club, left up to fans of each club to work out who they sent.

Email list was from previous Forum before the season, which itself was drawn from the previous NLSA/Fans forum lists.

If anyone from a club that wasn't represented wants to get involved suggest they call or email Noel Mooney. If anyone from a club doesn't know who represented their club, then I'd say Noel will also provide that info.

The big positive for me was that all 4 attendees are passionate about the League. Obviously there's a lot going on at the minute, some good, some not so good, but that gave me a bit of comfort.

[Massop 10]

Yeah it is invite only but each club is asked to send a 3 people to it. The realy funny thing is that Pats and Rovers who say they are BIG clubs didn't send anyone but Dublin City, a club that went under still showed an intrest and went !!! I would have also expected Drogheda to have been there with the situation up there they would have seen why they are in the trouble they are in. I suppose for some it is easier to bang on here than face the people they slag off day in day out. The good thing is that for us that were there it was shown how open things are now and clubs have to be honest which makes for a level playing field in the future.

[dcfcsteve]

I dont trust any of those ratings for TV or Radio programmes.

Out of the 100s of people who will read my post, does anyone have one of those ratings boxes in their house or know anyone who has one or has ever have one?

Surely it is in any broadcasters interest to hype up / warp the viewing figures, so they can charge full whack for the adds!

How scientific are these figures really?

Or are the add agenices in cohoots with the broadcasters and the whole thing is a bit of a pull the wook job or wha?

bhs

Whilst there will never be a 100% precise way of measuring ratings, as someone who used to work in both advertising and marketing the current system is relatively reliable.

There is so much money tied-up in the advertising industry, and the current system has been around for so many decades, that you can be sure it would be dropped like a hot stone if it was deemed seriously flawed or if a better system existed.

Those who handle the advertising budgets in big commercial companies aren't idiots, and have a lot of influence. If a small number of them demanded change (or even if only one huge advertiser like Procter & Gamble did) it would happen...

[stann]

What address was it sent to? PM me if you wouldn't mind.

Maribor, you might PM me with what Waterford United address the invite was sent to as well, there's obviously a communications break there somewhere. Thanks.

[Dodge]

On the attendance/non attendance, can anyone tell me where the FAI got their mailling list? I read about it here.

Any thing else come of the meeting apart from the RTE thing?


(and thanks to Kev for the update)

[KianD]

I thought every t.v bought in the last 10 yrs or so has one of them built into tthe t.v set,is this true??
Boy talk about going off topic,what were we talking about again????;).

Entirely untrue.

[Schumi]

On the actual forum, I was under the impression it was invited, representative, fans rather than an open invite?I got an e-mail from Alan Kearins (not sure of exact spelling, sorry) about this as I was at the last meeting but I also got an email from UCD so the clubs must have been asked to get some supporters' representatives along.

[dcfcsteve]

I thought every t.v bought in the last 10 yrs or so has one of them built into tthe t.v set,is this true??


Not true.

Just think about the electronic logistics of it for a start. How exactly would the TV communicate the information back to wherever it needs to go to be collated ? It would need some form of transmitter to send stuff out, not just receive it. And if TV's had a transmitter of some sort in them, you'd know all about it.

Also - I suspect it would be considered an unnecessary infringment of privacy for people to have their viewing habits recorded, stored and colated withoiut their permission. Wouldn't stand-up to any legal challenge I strongly suspect.

[pete]

Re: Attendance

I always get the impression the mailing list the FAI use isn't the best or else Supporters clubs don't see much gain from attending or not. I would have gone but was only asked last week & was too short notice.

[OneRedArmy]

Can people take the TV discussion off-topic?

On the address list, its clearly not ideal, so if you want to get on it email Noel Mooney.

As I said, the list originated from the people who were the FAI contacts at each club for the Eircom League section at the international games, which Soccerc was instrumental in setting up.

So blame him ;):D

Seriously though, if anyone knows Noel Mooney, he's an extremely open guy and he will be more than happy to add your name, or if there are already reps from a club, put you in touch with them so you can take things up directly with them.

[Macy]

I got an e-mail from Alan Kearins (not sure of exact spelling, sorry) about this as I was at the last meeting but I also got an email from UCD so the clubs must have been asked to get some supporters' representatives along.
Section O was represented. I was just querying it because of the line being taken about keyboard warriors saying stuff here and then not turning up to the meeting where they had the chance to ask the hard questions. Pretty hard to go if you weren't invited or asked to go as a representative, so people were hardly running from the fight.

[Angus]

Re: Attendance

I always get the impression the mailing list the FAI use isn't the best or else Supporters clubs don't see much gain from attending or not. I would have gone but was only asked last week & was too short notice.

Lads, in fairness, this site also had a banner advertising the event for the last 2 or 3 weeks - when searched, it brought up a set of instructions, including emailing Noel Mooney with required attendances.

Adam, is my memory accurate or am I going mad ?

[Boh_So_Good]

I dont know do they grasp the whole 'public', 'national broadcaster' and 'taxpayers money' thing.


But the amazing thing is neither does the Government. To see that Enviro Neo Con Eamon Ryan saying "RTE are correct in showing Eastenders" says to me there is something more going on here.

You do have to wonder some days if Freemason/Murdoch/Globalisation or some similar has to pulling the strings behind the scenes. RTE is actively working on destroying our national culture and industry. Why? Every penny RTE spends on imports they are robbing it from the TV and Film production company here. How expensive can it been to make a home-grown documentary consideing peoplecan do it on YouTube for free? Economics as well as any sense of public broadcasting service always takes second place to RTE getting as much Murdoch as posible into Irish homes.

Eastenders on the same time on RTE as BBC. Terrible US chick shows which get terrible ratings they fight to bid on... They are completely twisted and surreal in just about every way possible. Apparently RTE's latest cut back is that staff have make their own coffee. Poor dears.

I tell you the more I live, the more lies I see in media, the more destruction I see of nation states, the current communisation of banking the more I am starting think that David Icke was right after all.

[Dodge]

Lads, in fairness, this site also had a banner advertising the event for the last 2 or 3 weeks - when searched, it brought up a set of instructions, including emailing Noel Mooney with required attendances.

Since when is foot.ie supposed to be representative of LOI supporters? PLenty of clubs with no, or limited representation here.

[OneRedArmy]

Since when is foot.ie supposed to be representative of LOI supporters? PLenty of clubs with no, or limited representation here.It was a focus group.

I don't think anybody there would claim to represent the totality of views of supporters of their respective clubs. I've actually no idea how you would achieve this democratically and still end up with a workable amount of people in the room.

[Bald Student]

In 2008 revenue in the League grew by 51%,wages by 26%


Was there any more detail on this point? From the figures in the Genesis Report, a 50% increase in league revenue adds up to an increase of 8 to 10 million euro.

It seems to me that attendances in the league haven't grown by anywhere near 50%. Was there any breakdown of where this money came from?

[Dodge]

It was a focus group.

I don't think anybody there would claim to represent the totality of views of supporters of their respective clubs. I've actually no idea how you would achieve this democratically and still end up with a workable amount of people in the room.
I thought they were looking for 3 representatives from each club?

[A face]

Lads, in fairness, this site also had a banner advertising the event for the last 2 or 3 weeks - when searched, it brought up a set of instructions, including emailing Noel Mooney with required attendances.

Adam, is my memory accurate or am I going mad ?

Noel requested that was put up earlier in the week, and it was the first that alot of us heard of it. The email method is the correct one as it contacts the groups who would be most likely to attend. The thing is fans of the clubs who weren't there need to ensure that this list is up to date.

Also, it would have helped if people mentioned it on here when they heard of it on 9th of Sept, but such is life.

[dcfcsteve]

Was there any more detail on this point? From the figures in the Genesis Report, a 50% increase in league revenue adds up to an increase of 8 to 10 million euro.

It seems to me that attendances in the league haven't grown by anywhere near 50%. Was there any breakdown of where this money came from?

I imagine a sizeable chunk of it was accounted for by increase in prize money, increase in Euro qualification mioney, CPO money etc. I also wonder if they put a notional value against MNS or not ?

Attendances would only have increased by a small amount.

[OneRedArmy]

I thought they were looking for 3 representatives from each club?
They were, but I'm not sure if that gets you much closer to democratically representing the views of all a particular club's fans?

[Dodge]

It doesn't but it gives a far better view than if 6/7 clubs are represented

[HarpoJoyce]

Noel requested that was put up earlier in the week, and it was the first that alot of us heard of it. The email method is the correct one as it contacts the groups who would be most likely to attend. The thing is fans of the clubs who weren't there need to ensure that this list is up to date.

Also, it would have helped if people mentioned it on here when they heard of it on 9th of Sept, but such is life.

Thanks for replying to Angus in the first place A Face. For myself, I checked among some of the usual syuspects at my club and two supporters of my club were going. Representative of me or not.

But why would I mention that the FAI are holding a public meeting on this website. That would only encourage the anti-FAI, anti-Irish Football element. There's enough of them at my club already.

[OneRedArmy]

It doesn't but it gives a far better view than if 6/7 clubs are representedSorry, crossed purposes.

Yes, totally agree that more clubs should have been there, hopefully there will be better representation at the next one now that more people know about it.

But, by the same token, it sounds like some people were contacted, couldn't go/didn't want to go and didn't bother trying to get people to go in their stead. The buck stops with those people in that case.

[Ash]

Just checked the email list, dunno if this was mentioned already in the post but
the only Clubs who did not have a contact email on it were : Monaghan, Kildare, Cobh, Shels, Waterford & Sporting Fingal.

And of those missing from the list, Shels had a 2 reps there

[John83]

Was there any more detail on this point? From the figures in the Genesis Report, a 50% increase in league revenue adds up to an increase of 8 to 10 million euro.

It seems to me that attendances in the league haven't grown by anywhere near 50%. Was there any breakdown of where this money came from?
That figure was surprising to me too (about 8 million is right). It was queried, and Smith said 30% of it (I think he meant 30 of the 51%) was from investment (and not directors' loans or anything - proper investment).

[John83]

Thanks for replying to Angus in the first place A Face. For myself, I checked among some of the usual syuspects at my club and two supporters of my club were going. Representative of me or not.

But why would I mention that the FAI are holding a public meeting on this website. That would only encourage the anti-FAI, anti-Irish Football element. There's enough of them at my club already.
**** off Harpo. You were on the mailing list that got the notice. You replied to none of the emails, including ones which indicated a vacancy when Pineapple Stu dropped out last week. It seems you didn't even read them - three of us went, not two.

[Bald Student]

That figure was surprising to me too (about 8 million is right). It was queried, and Smith said 30% of it (I think he meant 30 of the 51%) was from investment (and not directors' loans or anything - proper investment).
Thanks,
I'd be a little weary then of presenting the information in this format:


In 2005 revenue in the League grew by 2%, wages by 23%
In 2006 revenue in the League grew by 5%, wages by 15%
In 2007 revenue in the League grew by 15%,wages by 31%
In 2008 revenue in the League grew by 51%,wages by 26%


since the column on the left includes a large amount of capital income and the one on the right contains current expenditure.

[Dodge]

Did the revenue "leap" include grants (from government bodies etc)?

[Magicme]

Just checked the email list, dunno if this was mentioned already in the post but
the only Clubs who did not have a contact email on it were : Monaghan, Kildare, Cobh, Shels, Waterford & Sporting Fingal.

And of those missing from the list, Shels had a 2 reps there

I myself only spotted it on here but as had other things to do couldnt go. The only other person from our club that would normally be able to go to these things had bigger fish to fry like welcoming his new daughter into the world! ;) @ monutdfc

[John83]

There was no further breakdown of the revenue increase, Dodge, but it was clear that something like that would be included.

Smith seemed competent (he's an ex Ernst & Young auditor) and focussed on getting clubs to run at break even or better. He didn't give a great deal of information for confidentiality reasons, but I'm inclined to give him time and judge him on the basis of club accounts over the next two or three years. Negatives on the financial side:
1) The reports he's working off are supplied by the clubs - he doesn't get the audited reports until January. There's still room for a club to game the system a bit there, but hopefully they can beat the idea of doing it right into clubs.
2) He was pretty scathing on the quality of some of the audited reports. Fortunately, he seems willing to follow that stuff up.

He put a lot of emphasis on how bad clubs cashflow analysis is - the inability to look ahead and see that those three weeks without a home game need a bit of saving for seems to be a rare talent.

[OneRedArmy]

Did the revenue "leap" include grants (from government bodies etc)?
If it was infrastructure related grants then I would imagine it should've been excluded. Not sure though.

Bear in mind when considering this info that Padraig Smith also openly questioned the accuracy of some clubs accounts (none named) and said he had been in discussion with certain clubs auditors about the quality of their reports.

Edit: John 83 beat me to it!

[Dodge]

There was no further breakdown of the revenue increase, Dodge, but it was clear that something like that would be included.
Thanks, I thought it might exaplin a large rise, but like ORA I'd expect it not to be included



He put a lot of emphasis on how bad clubs cashflow analysis is - the inability to look ahead and see that those three weeks without a home game need a bit of saving for seems to be a rare talent.
I think the fact some clubs don't have anything to save hurts them (but I agree with your point...)

[MariborKev]

Edit: John 83 beat me to it!

I mentioned it on the first page;)

[Buile Shuibhne]

Just checked the email list, dunno if this was mentioned already in the post but
the only Clubs who did not have a contact email on it were : Monaghan, Kildare, Cobh, Shels, Waterford & Sporting Fingal.

And of those missing from the list, Shels had a 2 reps there

I saw the thread here and linked to it on our MB.

I've been on the FAI/ League mailing list for a fair few years now in my capacity with the Shels website. I was also the Shels supporters's contact for the international tickets.

We didn't get any invites to the fans forum last February either, nor was any attempt made to contact any Shels supporters through the club itself. Like Saturday's one, we only found about it here, contacted Noel Mooney and invited ourselves.

At the February forum, we went out of our way to pass on our contact details so we wouldn't be overlooked again. But we were.

[Mr A]

I saw the thread here and linked to it on our MB.

I've been on the FAI/ League mailing list for a fair few years now in my capacity with the Shels website. I was also the Shels supporters's contact for the international tickets.

We didn't get any invites to the fans forum last February either, nor was any attempt made to contact any Shels supporters through the club itself. Like Saturday's one, we only found about it here, contacted Noel Mooney and invited ourselves.

At the February forum, we went out of our way to pass on our contact details so we wouldn't be overlooked again. But we were.

Jeez, take a hint FFS!

[the-blue-harp]

But the amazing thing is neither does the Government. To see that Enviro Neo Con Eamon Ryan saying "RTE are correct in showing Eastenders" says to me there is something more going on here.

You do have to wonder some days if Freemason/Murdoch/Globalisation or some similar has to pulling the strings behind the scenes. RTE is actively working on destroying our national culture and industry. Why? Every penny RTE spends on imports they are robbing it from the TV and Film production company here. How expensive can it been to make a home-grown documentary consideing peoplecan do it on YouTube for free? Economics as well as any sense of public broadcasting service always takes second place to RTE getting as much Murdoch as posible into Irish homes.

Eastenders on the same time on RTE as BBC. Terrible US chick shows which get terrible ratings they fight to bid on... They are completely twisted and surreal in just about every way possible. Apparently RTE's latest cut back is that staff have make their own coffee. Poor dears.

I tell you the more I live, the more lies I see in media, the more destruction I see of nation states, the current communisation of banking the more I am starting think that David Icke was right after all.

im with you on that!

[pete]

Smith seemed competent (he's an ex Ernst & Young auditor) and focussed on getting clubs to run at break even or better.

He talked a good game at the last Fans Forums but the clubs spending & 65% rule is his sole role in the FAI. It cannot be seen as a success.

[HarpoJoyce]

Alot of posters have 'follow-up' questions. There is no reason these questions remain unanswered. Contact a League of Ireland club, and ask them to clarify your query.

[OneRedArmy]

He talked a good game at the last Fans Forums but the clubs spending & 65% rule is his sole role in the FAI. It cannot be seen as a success.If you mean sole role as in the only thing he does, then no, its not his sole role.

That aside, as an example, the salary cap had nothing to do with Cork imploding and wouldn't have saved them.

Its the first year its been mandatory, so its early days. Per the above, he also admitted it won't be fully effective until the quality of annual accounts improved.

Something that I'm not sure has been highlighted above sufficiently, was that the FAI said that they have deliberately taken the decision not to intervene in a nanny state way in the operations of clubs. This was the theme of most of the day. They are requiring them to operate within the framework of licensing and the rules (eg salary cap) but broadly they don't want to take a more active role in controlling exactly what clubs spend their money on etc. This was questioned during the day a few times (some people asking why the FAI didn't intervene earlier when they knew, which they admitted, that some clubs would fold).

The response was that that was going down the road of franchise football and that, at the present time, that wasn't what they wanted to do (they would prefer to "help" clubs with advice) but if they kept screwing up they would be forced to take a more active role in financial management of clubs.

Time will tell I suppose.

[dahamsta]

HarpoJoyce, please respond to John83's comments (http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=1039102&postcount=79) or retract yours. A PM will be sent pointing to this post.

[Macy]

That aside, as an example, the salary cap had nothing to do with Cork imploding and wouldn't have saved them.
The way the FAI facilitated the avoidance of the 65% cap had everything to do with Cork imploding, and Drogs for that matter. No non-legally binding guarantee, no stupid wages busting the 65%, no clubs going belly up and not being able to pay their players.

[HarpoJoyce]

**** off Harpo. You were on the mailing list that got the notice. You replied to none of the emails, including ones which indicated a vacancy when Pineapple Stu dropped out last week. It seems you didn't even read them - three of us went, not two.

I have to reply to your abusive comments. Which legitimises them of course.

I contacted member of the UCDAFCSSC board, on Thursday by Mobile telephone (my service provider is Meteor.). He assured me that there was a number of represententives going to the meeting on Saturday and that it was not neccessary for me to go.

I did read some of the emails.
But why would I want to read emails yourself, if they contain content like the post quoted.

[John83]

I apologise to everyone for taking this thread slightly off topic. There will be no further posts by me regarding this.


I contacted member of the UCDAFCSSC board, on Thursday by Mobile telephone (my service provider is Meteor.). He assured me that there was a number of represententives going to the meeting on Saturday and that it was not neccessary for me to go.
As indicated in Ciaran's email of the Wednesday, Oct 8, 2008 at 1:42 PM, which stated in response to the call for a third rep,
"If no one else is available, I'll go. Has there been an agenda circulated yet?"
That email was sent to you.

Clearly you felt that you'd been denied representation by this tyrannical declaration :rolleyes:, leading to the remark,
"For myself, I checked among some of the usual syuspects (sic) at my club and two (sic) supporters of my club were going. Representative of me or not."
Three fans volunteered to give up most of their Saturdays to attend that meeting. Ciaran outright declared that he was happy to step aside if someone else wanted to go. I know I was, and I suspect the third would have too given his limited availability. You sent a text to one person, who seems to have assured you of what you already knew via email. This is sufficient basis to attack the others' input of time and effort to represent UCD supporters' opinions as best we could, disseminate information for the benefit of other fans and offer suggestions to help the league? It's motivation enough to publicly undermine us and imply that we are blanket anti-FAI, when our contribution to this fans' forum and the aftermath has been nothing but positive and constructive?


But why would I want to read emails yourself, if they contain content like the post quoted.Quote one email from me - ever - which has been abusive. I reacted angrily above to an attack on my integrity, and I stand by it.

It is you who are abusive, ignorantly attacking people's well-intentioned efforts without contributing anything positive of your own, accusing people of negativity when it's all you offer yourself.

[dahamsta]

Thank you both. Take it to PM if you have anything further.

[the-blue-harp]

big brother is watching you, let that be a lesson to you all;)

[A face]

Initiatives suggested at Fans Forum, Abbotstown, 11th October 2008.

1, Adverts on buses
2, Generic Posters
3, Signage to Grounds
4, Attitude of Stewards/Groundstaff
5, Weekend Special Offers- local & national; communicated to the press
6, Schoolboy/Affiliation offer
7, New League logo & design- run a nation wide schools contest to have the kids submit entries and thereby the getting schools, kids and their parents involved.Prizes could include a visit by some of the players from the league and international set up to the school.
8, Food Outlets at Grounds/mobile kiosks
9, MNS Highlights at Internationals
10, Car Stickers
11, Next Fixture signs at all grounds
12, Link CPO’s to their GAA & Rugby counterparts
13, Tourist Market- link to Bord Failte and advertise at Hotels etc
14, Increase 1st division profile
15, Live Streaming on Web of matches
16, League sleeve patches on general sale
17, PA- Overall improvement required plus could they read team in sequence
18, Consistency in fixture dates
19, Ex league players in UK used to promote the league
16, Use of old club programmes in doctors/dentists waiting rooms etc
17, Trappattoni to comment on high standard of the League
18, Pre-season open days at all League Clubs so that fans can watch training, meet players etc
19, Billboard campaign to announce start of the season
20, Freshers Week promotion at all colleges
21, Better use of local media
22, Penalty Shoot out between fans at half-time
23, 5 minute focus on 1st division on MNS

1.Clubs PRO to compile a database of young fans (from school visits or young supporters clubs)

One criteria on the application form is their favourite player
Now along with D.O.B from database a simple query could be written that would pop up a message to club CPO say 10 days before fans birthday.
Have postcard size pictures of players printed and get that player to sign card (pre bday message printed)
Young fan gets card in post from favourite player who remembered their birthday.

2. An underage (U12-13) all Ireland weekend tournament.
Winners of underage leagues invited to attend a weekend competition.
Families to host visiting players in selected location.
LOI clubs would sponsor players as mentors to clubs that do not have a LOI club e.g. Rovers could mentor Sligo teams, as well as Roscommon, Leitrim.
Raise leagues profile among towns that may not have LOI sides but are close to teams.
Also an economic spin off to hosts town/village. Dublin could have a separate weekend in the capital.