Is it time the players woke up to the situation?

[The Rebel Ram]

With Drogs now showing they are in trouble and the rest of the league in crisis is it not time for the players to wake up?
The whole world is in financial turmoil. Players are taking pay cuts but on the condition that they get back paid at the seasons end.
The league is obviously not able to cope with the current full time, even part time wages demanded.
The League will cease to exist unless wages are cut dramatically.

[Duffman]

TBH the players will always push it, its totally down to the clubs to cut their cloth. The league are doing what they can with wage caps so its really up to the clubs to come together and come up with something.

[BohsPartisan]

Players have mortgages, families, cars etc. like the rest of us. Its not their fault the clubs have pushed their expectations up over the last few years.

[The Rebel Ram]

Players have mortgages, families, cars etc. like the rest of us. Its not their fault the clubs have pushed their expectations up over the last few years.

Yes and so do the rest of us, I can't afford to give the club any more money.
The whole league needs to go part time with realistic wages and try to build again before it's too late!

[BohsPartisan]

Yes and so do the rest of us, I can't afford to give the club any more money.
The whole league needs to go part time with realistic wages and try to build again before it's too late!

I'm not disagreeing, just saying you can't blame the players for the situation. If you're offered the money you're gonna snap their hands off. The clubs got themselves into this mess.

[thischarmingman]

With banks now showing they are in trouble and the rest of the economy in crisis is it not time for insert your job here to wake up?
The whole world is in financial turmoil. Insert your job here are taking pay cuts but on the condition that they get back paid at the years end.
The economy is obviously not able to cope with the current full time, even part time wages demanded... and will cease to exist unless wages are cut dramatically.

Changed. Slightly.

Would you voluntarily turn down a better contract of your job offered it?

[gufcfan]

I am completely at odds to why this thread was stared.

If your boss gives you and your colleagues contracts for amounts, which may in time, put the business in jeopardy, by accepting those terms, should the business fall upon hard times, does some of the blame and responsibility fall upon your shoulders? I don't think so...

Plain and simple in my book.

[don ramo]

it is debateable if any university in the world has produced even one qualified economist that actually saw this coming, think of the league as the economy, these problems were known about years ago and just like the ecomomy were never addressed, no matter how many player leave more will come,
the league will probably have to drops its standards next year, one of two things have to happen either the players accept lesser wages (and guarantee a smaller sum per week rather than bet on a large one), or they will simply have to play elsewhere, and if one club want to pay the premaddonas let them, no player in this league should be earning over E3000 a week or even E2000, its simply not viable, but really who are we to tell the people running the bankrupt clubs how to run there business

[bigmac]

In fairness, lots of people have been warning that the banks' exposure to bad debts in the property market would come home to roost. Any economist in any university int he world could tell you that it's a bad idea to give loans to people and companies that you know won't be able to repay them, even if you reckon you can make a short term profit by selling on that debt to another company.
The levels of debt that escalated during the cheap credit era were created without any hedged position against a rise in interest rates and this was also flagged. There were plenty of economists out there who predicted that a rise in interest rates would have a huge snowball effect, particularly once the sub-prime market in the states started to go belly-up.

From a league point of view, yes the clubs need to sort it out themselves, but it doesn't help when the PFAI comes out stringly against any form of wage cap - even in the greater economy the trade unions realise that it's better to keep wages realistic than to have them astronomical for a year or two after which all the employers are bankrupt.

[ifk101]

If clubs are going to offer players full-time contracts, the wages the clubs offer must surpass what the players could earn by working full-time and playing part-time.

Additionally a footballer's career is short-lived and any full-time wages offered must take this into account.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Whats needed is strong management from boards to give an accurate wage figure. If I got a pay rise I'm not going to turn it down because " I may put the company in jepordy" F*ck that their problem, same with clubs.
Clubs got themselves into this mess by not having the balls to stand up to players and give them an honest wage. in some cases they are offering English Championship wages to conference players. Players are over paid but you can blame them for getting the best for themselves and their families

[don ramo]

245,469 EUR avearage championship wage :eek:

85,156 EUR average league 1 wage:eek:

62,615 EUR average league 2 wage:eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/4898392.stm

even in england there to unrealistic, so i cant see an end to the problem,

[neutrino]

Cant blame players for getting the best deal - it's not for them to worry where the money comes from.

It seems that no club in the league can do basic financial management. If you dont have the money then dont spend it. The projected budgeting is farcical too. Some clubs budgeting on random figures pulled out of the sky. take your income from last year and budget on that.you can always release more money into the club if your making it and things are going well. The league has improved but that has been done on the back of incurring large debts. Speculate to accumulate is all well and good but it has never worked in this league and I cant see why any club would ever see it working.

[dublinred]

Not all the players are to blame, we lost Hughes and Faz to Drogheda recently , both players were well paid but were offered double your money deals with free rent apartments , it was Drogs rather than the players who were doing the pushing.

[Dodge]

Not all the players are to blame

As above, none of the players are to blame.

[jebus]

I'll add to this and say the main thing I despise about a club's fans when they have money trouble is the amount of them that call one of their own player's a Judas or scum for not accepting a pay cut. He has a contract and can understandbly expect that contract to be fulfilled, no matter the cost to the club. I've always asked people like that if they would accept (say) a 70% pay cut on their legally binding contract if their boss asked them to

[jinxy lilywhite]

I'll add to this and say the main thing I despise about a club's fans when they have money trouble is the amount of them that call on of their own player's a Judas or scum for not accepting a pay cut. He has a contract and can understandbly expect that contract to be fulfilled, no matter the cost to the club. I've always asked people like if they would accept (say) a 70% pay cut on their legally binding contract if their boss asked them to


Here Here

[pineapple stu]

Changed. Slightly.

Would you voluntarily turn down a better contract of your job offered it?
Excellent post. Club directors are to blame, pretty much solely.

I'd've banned Ronan Seery and Ollie Byrne from any involvement in the eL for five years (not sure when from; probably when the club went burst (sic) ), and would do the same now with Walsh at Cork and Hoey at Drogheda. It's slightly off topic, but the trail of debt left by these clubs is nonsense and could well threaten evey one's existance (bar Dublin City obviously).

[Trainee]

All clubs should sit down and agree on a cap on the amount a player is paid weekly ie all clubs agree that that they will not pay a player more than 1000 euro a week

It could work as only a few players are good enough to play in england(left them go) and the rest will have to accept if the want get payed for playing soccer.

[OneRedArmy]

If we say that players will always look after their short-term self-interest (as we all do) and that clubs will always look after their short-term self-interest (being as successful as possible), then what we need is an outside agency looking after the longer term interest, by say, introducing some kind of limit on spending.

Wait a minute........

[pineapple stu]

No, because all clubs are different.

Clubs individually should agree on a wage budget. But that's highly unambitious.

[Dodge]

245,469 EUR avearage championship wage :eek:

85,156 EUR average league 1 wage:eek:

62,615 EUR average league 2 wage:eek:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/4898392.stm

even in england there to unrealistic, so i cant see an end to the problem,
And that was 2 years ago, it has shot up since then. I know a guy who hasn't played first team football in England who "earns" 10k sterling a week witha championship side

[John83]

Cant blame players for getting the best deal - it's not for them to worry where the money comes from.
I agree.


It seems that no club in the league can do basic financial management...
That's not fair. Shamrock Rovers have been run on a tight ship since their fans took over. UCD are run at breakeven. Bray seem to be in okay shape. There are clubs living within their means.

[A face]

As above, none of the players are to blame.

Who is responsible for the books in each club? Who signed the cheques and gave the go ahead for the contracts? Who decided on the figures to pay players?

In Cork Citys case it was Aidan Tynan (http://dynimg.rte.ie/0000748710dr.jpg) who was responsible, he was previously involved in more scandal with Bord na cCon (http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/11/02/story46912.asp) in 2006. I looks like he is free to walk to third sporting organisation in Ireland to reek more havoc with them now. The guy just keeps getting away with it.

[jebus]

Who is responsible for the books in each club? Who signed the cheques and gave the go ahead for the contracts? Who decided on the figures to pay players?

If the answer to this turns out to be Peter Ridsdale in disguise :mad:

[don ramo]

That's not fair. Shamrock Rovers have been run on a tight ship since their fans took over. UCD are run at breakeven. Bray seem to be in okay shape. There are clubs living within their means.

ya these club deserve to be in the prem any club that spends within there means deserves to be in the prem, no point being good on the pitch if your ****e off it, clubs simply have to get in line and put the foot down and not grovel, im not saying players dont deserve to be on so much, its an industrial standard wage i suppose, but most clubs, simply put, are not in a poistion to pay the wages the player expect, so theyll just have to accept it or go foreign,

i thought the FAI were on about educational advantages for playing with a LOI club, like the rugby, as you play full time, the club will put you through coledge so that when your finnished playing you have a career set to go, surely that would be an acceptable propostion for lower wages,

[jebus]

That's not fair. Shamrock Rovers have been run on a tight ship since their fans took over. UCD are run at breakeven. Bray seem to be in okay shape. There are clubs living within their means.

Add Limerick and Wexford to that list, I think Dundalk are in okay financial shape as well, one of their fans might be able to verify that

[Dodge]

i thought the FAI were on about educational advantages for playing with a LOI club, like the rugby, as you play full time, the club will put you through coledge so that when your finnished playing you have a career set to go, surely that would be an acceptable propostion for lower wages,
For some. Most will laught it out of the room

[John83]

Sure. I didn't mean to imply that the clubs I mentioned were the only ones doing okay. I've seen Wexford's 2007 accounts, and they seem fine. I haven't really heard anything about Limerick or Dundalk, though a few people have mentioned Limerick as being well run right now.

[jebus]

Sure. I didn't mean to imply that the clubs I mentioned were the only ones doing okay. I've seen Wexford's 2007 accounts, and they seem fine. I haven't really heard anything about Limerick or Dundalk, though a few people have mentioned Limerick as being well run right now.

So if all goes to plan we'll have a Premier League next year of UCD, Bray, Rovers, Limerick, Dundalk and Wexford with 4 others? :D

[jinxy lilywhite]

Sure. I didn't mean to imply that the clubs I mentioned were the only ones doing okay. I've seen Wexford's 2007 accounts, and they seem fine. I haven't really heard anything about Limerick or Dundalk, though a few people have mentioned Limerick as being well run right now.


as far as we are made to believe we are ok and running at b/e or profit. But we are a private company and we have to take our chairmans word on it. Personally no financial news from dundalk is good news and i have no reason to disbelieve our chairman. From the outside eveything looks good

[higgins]

All clubs should sit down and agree on a cap on the amount a player is paid weekly ie all clubs agree that that they will not pay a player more than 1000 euro a week

Not really fair is it ?

I mean say Shels had millions in the bank and so did Finn Harps.
If Shels and Harps offer the best player in the league a job do you think he'd run off to Donegal ?

Your wage cap would kill the country teams.

Assuming they could afford the 1000 clubs like Bohs Shels Cork Pats Rovers etc would always have their pick of the best players.

My solution to this problem is to begin hitting teams on their infastructure,, force them into spending on their grounds so players wages can't 99% of where funds go to.

Our grounds are a joke.
The FAI should simply not award clubs like Drogheda a licence as they have not got a decent ground. For example had they invested in increasing the capacity over the last few years they wouldn't be left with only 2000 on Friday for a league winning game when they are short of cash!

[Magicme]

I know that we lost out on some good players this season as they were offered more money from other clubs when they were signing. They have since had to take pay cuts and are now on not much more or maybe nothing more than they would have gotten here. Our manager is given a budget, he has to stick to it and if a player pushes for more than our manager can afford to give him he is told to go get it somewhere else.

So essentially, our team suffers because players are told they are going to get bigger wages elsewhere but then those clubs cant afford to pay them and they are in reality no better off.

You can add us to the list of clubs working with our means so will see you in the Premier next year Dundalk!

[jinxy lilywhite]

I know that we lost out on some good players this season as they were offered more money from other clubs when they were signing. They have since had to take pay cuts and are now on not much more or maybe nothing more than they would have gotten here. Our manager is given a budget, he has to stick to it and if a player pushes for more than our manager can afford to give him he is told to go get it somewhere else.

So essentially, our team suffers because players are told they are going to get bigger wages elsewhere but then those clubs cant afford to pay them and they are in reality no better off.

You can add us to the list of clubs working with our means so will see you in the Premier next year Dundalk!

Don't say that magicme. Can i not have a season where I don't have to go to the KCP. Oh please jesus, buddha and alllah please don't promote Monaghan. I'll do anything.

[Magicme]

Don't say that magicme. Can i not have a season where I don't have to go to the KCP. Oh please jesus, buddha and alllah please don't promote Monaghan. I'll do anything.

:D I think you are safe enough. Only way you will see us again next year is if you stuff it up yourselves or we get drawn in one of the cups again.

Am kinda sick of Oriel myself so although it goes against all that is holy, I am kinda hoping you get promoted!

[jinxy lilywhite]

:D I think you are safe enough. Only way you will see us again next year is if you stuff it up yourselves or we get drawn in one of the cups again.

Am kinda sick of Oriel myself so although it goes against all that is holy, I am kinda hoping you get promoted!

& I wish Monaghan self sustainability

[Magicme]

Is this what they call a "truce"??? :D

Thanks Jinxy, you may find it hard to believe but I was very annoyed at the prospect of yourselves going bust a few seasons ago, mainly coz I liked when we would beat you at KCP but also coz I hate to see any clubs in trouble so in these troubled times that is the best wish you could have for any club.

[oldyouth]

It's very possible that next year we will have a top tier of perhaps 16 financially sound clubs from the 2 divisions(which would have a vast difference in ability to compete) and a 2nd tier from the remainder/A Championship teams.

Obviously the distinction between divisions should reflect footballing ability but I fear that is quickly becoming unachievable.

[sadloserkid]

The blame is 100% with the clubs.

And regarding our own situation we've done fine this year and have kept our expenditure to a minimum (sight seeing trips to see what are apparantly the finest two pitches in the country notwithstanding) we'd be no better off than the Longfords or Kildares of this world were it not for Chairman McCarthy (we'd obviously still have a few more fans than Kildare). While I'm pleased that it looks like we'll manage a full season without a public financial crisis my natural pessimism isn't allowing me to get carried away just yet.

[pineapple stu]

But we are a private company and we have to take our chairmans word on it.
Aren't you a co-op? If you're a company, you can get your accounts on the CRO. But I've been there with no joy. :)

[passerrby]

& I wish Monaghan self sustainability

thanks and I in return wish you all the luck you deserve

[oldyouth]

The blame is 100% with the clubs.

And regarding our own situation we've done fine this year and have kept our expenditure to a minimum (sight seeing trips to see what are apparantly the finest two pitches in the country notwithstanding) we'd be no better off than the Longfords or Kildares of this world were it not for Chairman McCarthy (we'd obviously still have a few more fans than Kildare). While I'm pleased that it looks like we'll manage a full season without a public financial crisis my natural pessimism isn't allowing me to get carried away just yet.
The problem in basing your financial position on a benefactor such as your chairman and our own Mr. Wallace is that their wealth has to be under pressure from the current financial situation. I would not doubt their intention to provide long term support to the clubs but they may have to cut back.

[jinxy lilywhite]

Aren't you a co-op? If you're a company, you can get your accounts on the CRO. But I've been there with no joy. :)

No the Co-Op was disbanded in late 2005 or early 2006. Gerry Matthews took over the club then. I tried the CRO but I don't know the holding company. Dundalk Fc isn't listed and i don't think Mr Matthews would be set up as a sole trader.

Stu is not difficult to get accounts for private companies? Are there disclosure requirements less than that of a public company? Its been over 2 years now since I looked at company law that I quite forget.

BTW: Cheers Mons for the support, though I've a funny feeling we'll be in the first next season

[sadloserkid]

The problem in basing your financial position on a benefactor such as your chairman and our own Mr. Wallace is that their wealth has to be under pressure from the current financial situation. I would not doubt their intention to provide long term support to the clubs but they may have to cut back.

Bingo. Our is less of a liability in the media too (though I'll concede that he could be up to all sorts in his own local press...) :)

[pineapple stu]

Stu is not difficult to get accounts for private companies? Are there disclosure requirements less than that of a public company? Its been over 2 years now since I looked at company law that I quite forget.
You get accounts for private companies through the CRO. There's less detail in them, however - in particular, you've no P&L account compared to public company accounts. You can do a business name search for Dundalk FC and see what company operates the business name. I did it about two years ago and found it was a co-op, but I might have a look again if it's changed.

[micls]

I'll add to this and say the main thing I despise about a club's fans when they have money trouble is the amount of them that call one of their own player's a Judas or scum for not accepting a pay cut. He has a contract and can understandbly expect that contract to be fulfilled, no matter the cost to the club. I've always asked people like that if they would accept (say) a 70% pay cut on their legally binding contract if their boss asked them to

Any fan who would react like that is an idiot

No player should have to go through what our playrs for example or going through this year. Trying to work out how to live, pay mortgages etc on 30% of their wages. Now I have great respect for the way our players have reacted to the circumstance but they just shouldnt have to.

Take Gamble, offered an improved contract to keep him away from Pats and now on 30%.....

No one is at fault but the people in charge. For example take Tynan. I know for a fact that 2 of our players(one now gone) offered to sign contracts this year for much less than Tynan gave them. One wanted to stay on and offered to take a pay cut to do so....Tynan gave him a ay increase.

Another was signing and offered to sign for x amount. Tynan gave him 60% MORE than he asked for. Its financial stupidity and recklessness like this that has gotten us where we are.

The players are not the problem

[blackholesun]

The players are not the problem

Hhhmmm, well that not 100% true, some players along with their agents are playing one club off against others to jack up the salaries. Yes, its mainly the idiot clubs agreeing to silly money for some above average players who are mainly to blame but some players are partly to blame too.

Sure look at Kearney snaking off to Shels for the money, he can hardly cry the poor mouth now can he!

bhs

[OneRedArmy]

The players are not the problemGiven what Fran Gavin told the media on Saturday (and the attendees at the Fans Forum earlier) that 75% professional contracts expire at the end of this season, then I'd re-phrase that: The players have a problem.

Stephen McGuinness said quite a few were coming to him asking if they should be taking part-time jobs.

But your original point stands, this wasn't the fault of the players.

[jebus]

Hhhmmm, well that not 100% true, some players along with their agents are playing one club off against others to jack up the salaries. Yes, its mainly the idiot clubs agreeing to silly money for some above average players who are mainly to blame but some players are partly to blame too.

Sure look at Kearney snaking off to Shels for the money, he can hardly cry the poor mouth now can he!

bhs

Nonsense. A player has every right to look out for the best deal, and the best deal is up to the clubs involved. It could be 2k a week, it could be 500 a week, the player has no say in that

[micls]

Hhhmmm, well that not 100% true, some players along with their agents are playing one club off against others to jack up the salaries. Yes, its mainly the idiot clubs agreeing to silly money for some above average players who are mainly to blame but some players are partly to blame too.

Sure look at Kearney snaking off to Shels for the money, he can hardly cry the poor mouth now can he!

bhs

Rubbish. Playing the clubs off against each other :rolleyes:If we had competent people in charge the clubs would offer what they could afford and leave it at that.

Why exactly cant he cry 'poor mouth'?
Kearney left for shels because he was offered more money and wasnt being offered what he thought he deserved by us. A time when we actually used some common sense not to try to compete with Shels.

He came back cos he hated it up there and was given more money by Tynan and co that he was on originally with City.

He has every right to cry 'poor mouth', he was given a contract and it should be adhered to, end of story.


Given what Fran Gavin told the media on Saturday (and the attendees at the Fans Forum earlier) that 75% professional contracts expire at the end of this season, then I'd re-phrase that: The players have a problem.

Stephen McGuinness said quite a few were coming to him asking if they should be taking part-time jobs.

But your original point stands, this wasn't the fault of the players.

Big change coming alright....well hopefully. The players, along with man others will have to adapt to a new more difficult time, take part time jobs etc. Once their current contracts are fulfilled I dont have a problem with that