Rugby Union 2008

[Student Mullet]

Actually, does anyone know whether we need to beat Argentina to keep our seeding? That'll affect selection more than anything else.

[Schumi]

Actually, does anyone know whether we need to beat Argentina to keep our seeding? That'll affect selection more than anything else.I worked out a month or two ago that we'd need to have a better record than Scotland in these games to keep ahead of them because they play better ranked teams than us. It's possible Argentina have gained points since and that isn't true any more, I'd need to check. As it stood at the start of these games, we'd need a result against Argentina or Scotland not to beat Canada to keep the top 8 seeding, by my reckoning.

[pete]

Actually, does anyone know whether we need to beat Argentina to keep our seeding? That'll affect selection more than anything else.

George Hook mentioned something about losing by less than 15 points. I believe Scotlands narrow defeat means they are closer to Ireland after last weekend.

No matter how many injuries Ireland have Horgan should never play in the centre!

I agree that no realistic options to O'Driscoll in the short term. His kicking was much better than normal on Saturday as I think that is the worst part of his play.

[gspain]

It's disappointing and poor journalism that nobody knows for sure if we will be 8th or what we need for 8th.

We came into this series being told we needed to match Scotland. 2 defeats and a win over Canada is the best they can do. Even allowing for points difference somebody should have it for definite.

Anybody know what Argentina need for 4th spot?

Anyway we'll probably end up getting Scotland in our pool anyway.

[Schumi]

George Hook mentioned something about losing by less than 15 points. I believe Scotlands narrow defeat means they are closer to Ireland after last weekend.I don't think this is correct. It's a while since I read the points system but you can't gain points for losing and I'm pretty sure that Ireland and Scotland both lost no points over the weekend because New Zealand and South Africa are too far ahead. There's a page explaining the whole thing on irb.com somewhere.

[pete]

I don't think this is correct. It's a while since I read the points system but you can't gain points for losing and I'm pretty sure that Ireland and Scotland both lost no points over the weekend because New Zealand and South Africa are too far ahead. There's a page explaining the whole thing on irb.com somewhere.

Maybe if we lose to Argentina if means Canada have to stay within 15 points of Scotland? Sounds more logical than first suggestion...

:confused:

[gspain]

Maybe if we lose to Argentina if means Canada have to stay within 15 points of Scotland? Sounds more logical than first suggestion...

:confused:

:confused:

However we apparently got nothing for beating Canada.

I appreciate it is complicated but some journalist surely should have it worked out. Maybe we're lucky in football to have a Bert Kassis and a Lucian Marin to do all the complicated calculations for us. However UEFA also do bulletins on this stuff.

You would hope that Declan Kidney and the players are told exactly what is needed going into saturday's match. It could be the idfferenc ebetween kicking a penalty to secure a 2 point defeat rather than trying to win the game and losing the seeding by a narrow margin.

[Schumi]

All the details are explained here (http://www.irb.com/rankings/explain/index.html). Our current rating is 77.18 and Scotland's is 76.76. We play Argentina, rated 82.82 and Scotland play Canada, rated 69.12.

If Scotland beat Canada, their rating will be unchanged at 76.76. If we lose to Argentina, we lose 0.74 points and our rating will be 76.44 and we'll be unseeded. If we lose by more than 15 points, we lose 50% more points and will be rated at 76.08.

If we draw, we'll be rated at 77.44, if we win by less than 15 points, 78.44. In either case, we will be seeded. If Scotland don't beat Canada, we'll be seeded regardless of our result.

I hope this is kind of clear.

[gspain]

duplicate post - already explained better

[OneRedArmy]

I'd be gravely worried about our chances of beating Argentina, I'm not confident at all.

[pete]

All the details are explained here (http://www.irb.com/rankings/explain/index.html). Our current rating is 77.18 and Scotland's is 76.76. We play Argentina, rated 82.82 and Scotland play Canada, rated 69.12.

If Scotland beat Canada, their rating will be unchanged at 76.76. If we lose to Argentina, we lose 0.74 points and our rating will be 76.44 and we'll be unseeded. If we lose by more than 15 points, we lose 50% more points and will be rated at 76.08.

If we draw, we'll be rated at 77.44, if we win by less than 15 points, 78.44. In either case, we will be seeded. If Scotland don't beat Canada, we'll be seeded regardless of our result.

Not surprised but a bizarre ranking system.

Not confident about win on Saturday at all. Probably even worse kicking game than last Saturday. While Dempsey is better under the high ball (Argentina will be dropping in garryowens all game)would be tempted to play Kearney at full back for his big kicks. Overall would be surprised to see many changes from AB game.

[Schumi]

Not surprised but a bizarre ranking system.I think it's a decent enough system as they go. I don't see why the groups and seedings have to decided now though. Why can't they wait until after all the qualifying has finished?

[pete]

Why can't they wait until after all the qualifying has finished?

Is it because the top 8 nations do not have to qualify or has that already been decided by 1/4 finalists?

:confused:

[joeSoap]

I'm pretty confident of beating Argentina. My one change in the backline would be to drop Bowe for Earls. Bowe might be quick, but he's very limited from a footballing perspective and Earls offers more. O'Driscoll needs to be looked at seriously. I believe that the Irish centre partnership will be Earls and Fitzgerald in the not so distant future. I've watched Earls closely since he was an under 8 at Thomond, and make no mistake, his best position is as an outside centre. On current form, I would like to see a baclkine like this let loose, but its never going to happen;

Rob Kearney; Geordan Murphy, Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Ian Dowling; ROG, Tomas O'Leary.

Up front, I believe Flannery will start, and Jennings will come in with Wallace moving to 6. That would do for me.

So, I believe the team will be:

Dempsey, Earls, O'Driscoll, Fitzgerald, Kearney, O'Gara, O'Leary, Horan, Flnnery, Hayes, O'Connell, O'Callaghan, Wallace, Jennings, Heaslip.

That team will beat Argentina at home...no doubt.

[Schumi]

Is it because the top 8 nations do not have to qualify or has that already been decided by 1/4 finalists?

:confused:Top three from each group in the last world cup qualified automatically so it's got nothing to do with that. Some of the qualifying matches have already started actually.

Drawing out the groups closer to the competition would have created a bit of buzz about it too in the build up. I don't get it.

[Youths4Ever]

agree with dropping Bowe and bringing in Earls more attacking option having seen Horgan play a few times this year he should stay where he was last game.
Flannery should start only change would make to pack and if Thomas O'Leary starts a few less box kicks from the back of the scrum please

[pete]

Rob Kearney; Geordan Murphy, Keith Earls, Luke Fitzgerald, Ian Dowling; ROG, Tomas O'Leary..

Dowling is not good enough for International rugby as he is not quick enough. I think Bowe will stay in the team for some years.

[OneRedArmy]

Joesoap I'd assess Bowe the other way around, good footballer, not quick enough to be an international winger (one of the reasons he's been playing a bit at centre for the Ospreys).

I would've thought Dempsey would be dropped before Bowe, with Kearney being able to play at 15 where he's most dangerous.

Quinlan is the only change I'd make in the pack, I'd probably bring Ferris in for some added bulk and speed. There's no way Wallace is a 6 btw, nowhere near the bulk or physicality required.

[joeSoap]

There's no way Wallace is a 6 btw, nowhere near the bulk or physicality required.Don't agree at all. He has plenty of phsicality, tackles like hell and is without doubt the best ball carrier we have. All attributes for a blind side.

[pete]

Munster 16 AB 10 halftime. Great game & liked the Munster haka before ko.

[pete]

Munster 16 New Zealand 18. FT

Rokocoko scored with 3 minutes left. Great performance by Munster against half the team that started against Scotland. I thought they would overrun Munster in the second half but the ABs were lucky to win in the end.

[centre mid]

Awesome performance by Munster, save for some poor decisions from the ref they could have held out (amazing how the All Blacks get away with murder at the breakdown).

[MysticMon]

Great game, Munster i thought really had it. Fair play to them, just sooo unlucky in the end up.....disappointing, but, was a brilliant game and were not giving up easy!!!

[pete]

Awesome performance by Munster, save for some poor decisions from the ref they could have held out (amazing how the All Blacks get away with murder at the breakdown).

I think Munster did very well at the breakdown compared with Ireland who were beaten up in that area. In fairness the breakdown is IMO the ABs biggest strength - they recycle the ball faster than any other team.

[OneRedArmy]

Awesome performance by Munster, save for some poor decisions from the ref they could have held out (amazing how the All Blacks get away with murder at the breakdown).Disagree, I thought the ref was excellent and very, very fair. He interfered less than any ref I've seen in a long time.


I think Munster did very well at the breakdown compared with Ireland who were beaten up in that area. In fairness the breakdown is IMO the ABs biggest strength - they recycle the ball faster than any other team.Completely agree.

Munster's aggression was the big difference between today's performance and Ireland's on Saturday. They hit every ruck like their lives depended on it and protected and re-cycled the ball extremely well.

As well as the seasoned players like Sheahan, O'Driscoll and Stringer, Ronan, Dowling and Murphy gave Kidney a timely reminder.

Dual-haka was brilliant.

[Angus]

Shame..

[Dodge]

Thank God for that - I really could not stomach another 30 years of this drivel

Couldn't agree more

[newbie]

i got in too late for the dual Haka - i was looking forward to it all day.

any links to it? YouTube dont have it up yet.

Great performance from Munster,you could see how much the NZ lads in the team wanted to overturn the ABs.

Roll on Saturday and hopefully the Ireland players can take something from this game,like how to throw yourself at a tackle!

[tetsujin1979]

i got in too late for the dual Haka - i was looking forward to it all day.

any links to it? YouTube dont have it up yet.


v=iVufrShzUBw

[OwlsFan]

but the ABs were lucky to win in the end.

Not sure about that. The AB's missed 3 relatively easy penos which should have left Munster playing catch up rugby.

Very enjoyable game, marred even so slightly by some Munster players feigning injury to break up the game. No one can fault the commitment of the players and it was a great spectacle. Pity I had no choice other than to listed to Rhyl "Yah" Nugent.

[joeSoap]

Massive occasion. Massive performance. Everything about the whole occasion was memorable.

As regards the game, Munster possibly deserved more. It was sickening to lose to a late try, although the Blacks should have been ahead by that stage. Sublime performances by Stringer, O'Driscoll and Warwick. Bad bad error by Mafi gave them the try at the end, but nobody was pointing the finger. I just wish Warwick had a go on the last play rather than kicking it dead, which made no sense. A couple of drives, central position and a drop goal to win? Now that would have been incredible.

[Jinxy]

I think Munster did very well at the breakdown compared with Ireland who were beaten up in that area. In fairness the breakdown is IMO the ABs biggest strength - they recycle the ball faster than any other team.

Yeah but Ireland were playing the actual All Blacks.

[ifk101]

Yeah but Ireland were playing the actual All Blacks.

:confused:

[OneRedArmy]

Yeah but Ireland were playing the actual All Blacks.There's no real difference to be honest. The ABs use squad rotation in most games anyway and their talent pool is so deep that it makes no difference what team they put out.

Put it this way, Munster were infinitely more weakened than New Zealand.

[pete]

Yeah but Ireland were playing the actual All Blacks.

Munster had some players making their debuts. If they wanted they could easily have beaten Ireland by another 20 points. Half the AB team yesterday started against Scotland.

[Dodge]

Munster had some players making their debuts. If they wanted they could easily have beaten Ireland by another 20 points. Half the AB team yesterday started against Scotland.

More than half the Munster team played the last Henieken Cup game. Whats the point in this stoopid argument?

[pete]

One of the best images shown on TV was when Munster were held up on the line & they showed a women jumping up & down with a "Try" banner. She was at least 30 seconds behind the other 24,000 odd people in realising it was not a score. :D

[Monkfish]

One of the best images shown on TV was when Munster were held up on the line & they showed a women jumping up & down with a "Try" banner. She was at least 30 seconds behind the other 24,000 odd people in realising it was not a score. :D

She was probably at the make-up counter in Brown Thomas today boasting about how she seen great goal scored by 'the claw' :)

End of the day All Blacks A's beat the Munster reserves. Whoopeee. :rolleyes:

[joeSoap]

Murphy in for Dempsey, Flannery in for Best and Ferris for Quinlan (suspended for 3 weeks) are the only changes, I've heard from the team. O'Kelly on the bench.

[Youths4Ever]

G Murphy, T Bowe, B O'Driscoll capt., L Fitzgerald, R Kearney, R O'Gara,
T O'Leary, M Horan, J Flannery, J Hayes, D O'Callaghan, P O'Connell, S Ferris, D Wallace, J Heaslip.

Replacements: R Best, T Buckley, M O'Kelly, A.N. Other, E Reddan, P Wallace, K Earls.

[OneRedArmy]

Last chance/another chance no. 478 for Murphy.....

Changes otherwise speak for themselves but Kidney lets end the fiddling and put our best back (Kearney) in his best position (15).

[joeSoap]

Well, in fairness to Murphy he just spent the last 6 and a half years under a coach (EOS) that clearly didn't rate him and wasn't given a protracted run in the side. I don't think anyone can argue that he is undoubtedly one of the most skilful players we have ever produced, and you don't last 10 years at a club like the Leicester Tigers unless you've got what it takes. I think he'll be fine.

As for Kearney at full back, I don't think it really matters as he'll rotate with Murphy. Murphy would be a bit more creative coming in to the line, but Kearney offers better kicking options which are vital with the ELV's.

[Macy]

Well, in fairness to Murphy he just spent the last 6 and a half years under a coach (EOS) that clearly didn't rate him and wasn't given a protracted run in the side. I don't think anyone can argue that he is undoubtedly one of the most skilful players we have ever produced, and you don't last 10 years at a club like the Leicester Tigers unless you've got what it takes. I think he'll be fine.
I don't think you can completely blame EOS - Murphy fooked up enough defensively to make it a decision that could be easily justified.

[paul_oshea]

Ireland lack any pace in the backs, very poor. This is a very inept performance.

[dfx-]

England 6-42 South Africa

Powerful, impressive stuff from the Springboks against a truly inept England.

New Zealand beginning to bottle it again.

[OneRedArmy]

Ireland lack any pace in the backs, very poor. This is a very inept performance.I know I'm in a small minority as I argued with everyone on my way out of the game, and after, but by and large I thought it was a very good performance.

Firstly, let's set the context, the national expectation is ridiculous. Argentina have a great record against us and are ranked higher and have been for quite a while. They are also probably the most physical side in the world.

Right from the first minute we fronted up to them and knocked the back at every breakdown. It was tremendous stuff from 1-8. We nullified their scrum (no mean feat) and our lineout was much better.

The first half was spent softening them up and then possession turned our way in the second half and we proved the adage that defending is much tougher than attacking as despite them putting more subs on they were knackered with 10 to go and we killed the game.

Our success was evidenced by the number of brawls, punch-ups and off the ball stuff. We got under their skin and they don't like it up them.

Sure O'Gara was poor, O'Leary hesitant & O'Driscoll clueless but let's remember forwards win games and our pack put in a huge performance to win an important game.

It was enjoyable to see an old-fashioned war of attrition and if you want to see the backs throw it around like a womens basketball team, the Super 14 starts again in the spring.

[pete]

Even taking the opposition into consideration I still think it was a poor performance & no signs of improvement by Ireland from last year.

The lines of running by the backs was terrible & kicking even worse.

I suppose for the 6 Nations Ireland will be playing poorer sides like England & Scotland so might get a few tries.

ELVs seem to have widened the gap between north & south. Usually the northern teams win a few games in the Autumn.

[Jinxy]

Argentina would have minced us if Hernandez and Contepomi were playing.

[OneRedArmy]

Argentina would have minced us if Hernandez and Contepomi were playing.How? Their backs were absolutely anaemic and clueless. If our running lines were bad, theirs were non-existant.

[shakermaker1982]

Happy with the result but as a spectacle it was a poor showing from both sides. Argentina are a hard side to break down but we didn't seem to have many ideas on how to make the hard yards other than give it to Wallace (another solid performance and to be fair it always takes two men to take him down) or give it to O'Gara to kick it.

I was at the WC game last year in Paris and it didn't surprise me one bit how nasty the match was yesterday. Argentina got away with murder in that final group game (sly punches at various Irish players and numerous other off the ball incidents that went unnoticed by the ref and the television cameras) and it was fair to say that O'Gara did not forget or forgive!!!

Concerns?

1) Rory Best is not an international hooker and seems to panic every time he has a lineout. He's fine everywhere else but on a pressure throw he seems to freeze up. Flannery needs to stay fit.

2) BOD - superb defensively but going forward? Seems to have lost yard of pace so will opt to kick instead of take his man on. Fingers crossed this was just a knock.