Financial Crisis

[dahamsta]

It's not like motor insurance though ORA, they don't have to give you a quote. I went to BOI, AIB, EBS and IN last year and all bar one basically told me to feck off. My circumstances are unusual, but my track record is excellent and my wife's is pretty much incredible given the idiocy of the last decade. There's no logical reason why they would turn us down - particularly BOI, who we had both banked with for decades and did actually "preapprove" us - so it has to have been policy with little regard for actual circumstances.

EDIT: I should add that while I agree with you at a very basic level on the idiocy of consumers in the past decade, I believe that the banks carry a far greater responsibility for this position. Banks are supposed to be experts on finance, and have (or had) a position of trust in the financial business. Normal people can't afford finanicial advisors, so they went to the banks in the belief that they would be advised appropriately. Of course they were mistaken, and they won't do it again, but they were just naive. The banks weren't naive, they knew exactly what was happening and turned a blind eye to it.

[Macy]

That said, I do feel there's an element of damned if you do, damned if you don't, in that people howled that the banks were lending too much and thats what got us into this mess (which is completely correct), now the banks are supposedly inhibiting the country getting back on its feet by coming over all sensible about lending money....
Aye, and shows we haven't reached the bottom of the market in terms of prices.


This country needs to get over its property ownership at all costs mentality IMO.
It needs the legislation to provide the tenants rights that will change that. But sure where would the builders/ developers have been without people desperate to buy houses?

[OneRedArmy]

But sure where would the builders/ developers have been without people desperate to buy houses?Doing something that was actually productive!

Totally agree though. Its a simple indicator that expectation is we're not at the bottom yet, or at least being prudent (there's a word that hasn't been used for 15 years.....) there should be an expectation of further falls.

[OneRedArmy]

Anyone see the banner outside Anglo this morning? Bankers, trade unionists and politicians (some named, usual suspects) are traitors and wasters and "the people" are heroes. No mention of developers or builders....... wonder who put it up :)

[Fr Damo]

No, didn't see the banner, but I saw futureshock and the bit after wards with Kenny. Finally, the notion that we should up skill & up sell and the that higher value jobs would get us out of this has been hit for six.
90,000 jobs in the public sector and 150,000 construction jobs "created" during the boom so we could sell houses to each other is mind blowing. That's was about 12% of the work force at that time.

"Real" jobs imo (manufacturing) have been in decline since 2001& that should be in neon lights. PS and beards were you watching??
I think we have to have further falls in terms of costs but the risng boats of the US and China are going to drive the Dollar and oil upwards that in turn feeds inflation here. Steel is up 30% in 2010 (more to come) yet the mills are at 60% capacity (of the boom). All we need now is rising inflation in Germany and France and interest rates start to rise and the piigs will fly over the moon.

[tetsujin1979]

Anyone see the banner outside Anglo this morning? Bankers, trade unionists and politicians (some named, usual suspects) are traitors and wasters and "the people" are heroes. No mention of developers or builders....... wonder who put it up :)
similar one in Blanchardstown, can't remember the exact wording, but it's something like "Support Quinn Insurance workers, keep <really massive amount of euros> away from the dole"
think it was a billion, but it might not have been

[tetsujin1979]

here's the banner outside Anglo Irish Bank: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?pid=4634346&id=263390727244&fbid=393555717244
Click the image to open a zoomed in version

[dahamsta]

Class. That cherry picker wouldn't have been cheap, who's responsible? If it's the socialists I'll lost interest and respect instantly.

(Not because of their ideals, but because of the way the express them.)

[Macy]

No, didn't see the banner, but I saw futureshock and the bit after wards with Kenny. Finally, the notion that we should up skill & up sell and the that higher value jobs would get us out of this has been hit for six.
90,000 jobs in the public sector and 150,000 construction jobs "created" during the boom so we could sell houses to each other is mind blowing. That's was about 12% of the work force at that time.

"Real" jobs imo (manufacturing) have been in decline since 2001& that should be in neon lights. PS and beards were you watching??

That there was an increase in construction jobs isn't the real issue - it was that it was on an unsustainable bubble. Even if the economy had been properly managed there would've been some gain in construction jobs (more infrastructure than houses admittedly, if they hadn't been outsourced to exploiting foreign companies like GAMA who Harney is so fond of). Similarly, a growing population needs more public services, which need more public servants.

Must admit I stopped watching the programme when the fella was going on about political reform. The problem isn't the system it's the electorate - why would someone go to their TD to get a passport and expect it to be delivered personally to them? But yer man was droning on about blaming the system! Who would he have, the entreprenuers from the banks and property sector that have bankrupted the country? Decided if that was the "quality" then I wouldn't waste my time.

Btw I assume "beards" means trade unionists? If it is, can we drop this patheticness please - it's ruined debate on politics.ie imo, no need to spread the nonsense here.

[OneRedArmy]

Fr. Damo, Ireland arguably has NEVER had a significant manufacturing sector of any real note to lose (unlike say Britain).

Screwing together computer components as part of a transfer pricing whizz doesn't count as manufacturing IMO and we have never had proper heavy industry. Its not an accident that Shorts, Harland & Wolff etc. were from Belfast.

The areas we have been strong in since the 70s, i.e. IT and pharma/biomed are still crucially important to the economy.


Class. That cherry picker wouldn't have been cheap, who's responsible? If it's the socialists I'll lost interest and respect instantly.

(Not because of their ideals, but because of the way the express them.)As I said above, I presumed its a builder/developer thats behind it as they are noticeably exempt from being either a traitor or a waster.......!

[dahamsta]

It's never Mick Wallace is it? I would have expected better from him though.

[passinginterest]

My first thought was Wallace too, he's never been without criticism of other developers though so I doubt he'd be leaving them off the hook.

[Fr Damo]

[
QUOTE=Macy;1356764]That there was an increase in construction jobs isn't the real issue - it was that it was on an unsustainable bubble. Even if the economy had been properly managed there would've been some gain in construction jobs (more infrastructure than houses admittedly, if they hadn't been outsourced to exploiting foreign companies like GAMA who Harney is so fond of). Similarly, a growing population needs more public services, which need more public servants.

Look, we had 150,000 in construction producing shopping centers for foreign tenants to repatriate profits and on shoe box apartments that are frankly short on engineering. When these jobs were finished the extra 150,000 in construction were always going to end up struggling to find work and that's the point. Foresight!(or lack thereof)

On the second part I think it has been thrashed out many times before though I will add if you strip out Armed forces from the GB, French , German public services I think you'll find we are above the European average, not that tells us a whole lot!


Btw I assume "beards" means trade unionists? If it is, can we drop this patheticness please - it's ruined debate on politics.ie imo, no need to spread the nonsense here.

Fair Comment.

[thischarmingman]

(London) Times blog piece: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/bronwen_maddox/article7122237.ece


Ireland, the Pig getting out of the muck
If you’re deep in debt, the Irish can show you a way out

[dahamsta]

Did the Pigf*cker go down on Bronwen Maddox or what?

Pity she didn't do a little research into who put Ireland into this mess in the first place. Damn straight he should muck out his own sty. If someone had stuck his nose in it, instead of fawning all over him like this ill-informed idiot, he might've done it earlier.

[osarusan]

(London) Times blog piece: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/bronwen_maddox/article7122237.ece

Well, I feel a lot better now knowing that our popular minister of finance has the support of the people.

Diabolical journalism to suggest that a lack of Greek-style protests actually implies support for the measures.

[tetsujin1979]

Was in Dublin city centre last night just before the protest outside the Garden of Remembrance began. Thought it was just another bunch of idiots harassing pedestrians on their way home from work, "down with this sort of thing", etc.
Didn't realise until I saw the news later that this was the same crowd that stormed the Dail

[Macy]

stormed the Dail
Do you work for the herald? RTE were at it all day - Liveline harrassed a protestor about his political links and for being a former shinner, at the same time as letting an idiot on attacking the protests, that it was an affront to democracy, that the Government is doing a great job for most of the show before establishing he was in fact a member of FF.


On the second part I think it has been thrashed out many times before though I will add if you strip out Armed forces from the GB, French , German public services I think you'll find we are above the European average, not that tells us a whole lot!
If you have a growing public, who require public services, it's inevitable that you need more public servants. I wasn't trying to revisit old arguments (I'm sure you do know better than the OECD :rolleyes: ), just pointing out that increases in the two sectors aren't necessarily the bad thing that it's being painted now by the usual suspects.

[Fr Damo]

If you have a growing public, who require public services, it's inevitable that you need more public servants. I wasn't trying to revisit old arguments (I'm sure you do know better than the OECD :rolleyes: ), just pointing out that increases in the two sectors aren't necessarily the bad thing that it's being painted now by the usual suspects.

It's going to get larger now, 2000 new teachers for September 2010. Obvioulsy wholely supported. Could probably double that also. If only we had built a school instead of the Spire! My issue is where the numbers are employed Macy and are they adding value or just clocking up pensions. I'm working two weeks a month in the UK now, a redeployment of my employeers resources. What's in it for me? A job and the 20% paycut has been given back to me.

Incidently they all hail Lenihan over there. (Not saying it's good or bad though I am on the record of being a supporter of his)

[tetsujin1979]

Do you work for the herald? RTE were at it all day - Liveline harrassed a protestor about his political links and for being a former shinner, at the same time as letting an idiot on attacking the protests, that it was an affront to democracy, that the Government is doing a great job for most of the show before establishing he was in fact a member of FF.No, I barely even read the Herald. "Stormed the dail" was the phrase I heard on the radio on the way from Dublin city centre.

[Macy]

Incidently they all hail Cowan over there. (Not saying it's good or bad though I am on the record of being a supporter of his)
I've no idea how you square that circle with your feelings outlined above about the boom, given he his one of the main people responsible, but how and ever. At least the Brits have the excuse of probably not knowing that he stoked the property bubble and then was so slow to react to the crash!

[Fr Damo]

I've no idea how you square that circle with your feelings outlined above about the boom, given he his one of the main people responsible, but how and ever. At least the Brits have the excuse of probably not knowing that he stoked the property bubble and then was so slow to react to the crash!

Ooops.......Did I say Cowan, I ment B Lenihan. Sorry!!

[dahamsta]

Great to see more teachers being brought on stream, although I'd wonder what period that's over. I also hope that their contracts don't give them tenure. The "reliability" of public servant jobs has to be addressed, their employers have to be able to sack employees that aren't performing.

[passinginterest]

Great to see more teachers being brought on stream, although I'd wonder what period that's over. I also hope that their contracts don't give them tenure. The "reliability" of public servant jobs has to be addressed, their employers have to be able to sack employees that aren't performing.

The ability is already there to sack people it just isn't done enough. It's a lenghty process because everything has to be done to the letter of employment law and I think that leads to people avoiding going as far as dismissal in many cases. There have been a good few dismissals from my own Dept in short time I've been in a HR position but it generally takes years and even then they can end up in the Labour Court.

[Macy]

Ooops.......Did I say Cowan, I ment B Lenihan. Sorry!!
So supported the Government that stoked the bubble, and then was slow to react to the crash then!


The ability is already there to sack people it just isn't done enough. It's a lenghty process because everything has to be done to the letter of employment law and I think that leads to people avoiding going as far as dismissal in many cases. There have been a good few dismissals from my own Dept in short time I've been in a HR position but it generally takes years and even then they can end up in the Labour Court.
Another reason it's hard is to stop political interference. What type of public service would we have if people that refused to cut corners for politicians could be threatened with dismissal? And believe me, Ministers do try and threaten people to get their own way and "help" their pals.

[Fr Damo]

[QUOTE=Macy;1357630]So supported the Government that stoked the bubble, and then was slow to react to the crash then!

The issue of what he did or was party too isn't why I named him here, it was in relation to the blog posted yeserday in the Times that I thought I should say in general, in my experience and through conversations Lenihan is held in a good light in England. Not suggesting that's good or bad. i.e not getting into it now.

[Fr Damo]

Anyone here smell a rat when at the weekend all the broadsheets had articles on turning the corner with quotes from Euro colleques of Lenihan saying just that and on Tuesday we get Pfizer's announcemment and Boston Scientific apparently about to do something similar? Get the good news out first eh??

In England at the moment, and they are talking about redundancies in local Authorities and public services? I'm no expert on employment law but what differences do these british bodies have in their contracts that we can't use?

[Macy]

Lenihan claiming we've turned another corner? He's worse that Stevie G... The real distractionary tactic has been the focus on pensioners. Last year it was the public sector, this year it's pensioners, and yet again the great Irish public appear to be falling for it hook, line and sinker spurred on by a compliant media. Still, once the tax loopholes aren't closed, why would the vested interests that control our media have it any other way?

As for redundancies - do you miss the whole thing about a public sector agreement that was negotiated in Croke Park? Even if that is rejected, we've been reducing numbers in the public sector for the last number of years through non replacement, non renewal of contracts and early retirements and various other schemes. This will greatly accelerate towards the end of the year. This comes after the OECD that showed we didn't have a large public sector. How is adding more to the dole, taking spending out of the economy going to help anyone, bar make a bitter people feel better?

[OneRedArmy]

How is adding more to the dole, taking spending out of the economy going to help anyone, bar make a bitter people feel better?It won't.

But unless the unions continue to engage on issues like pension indexation, productivity increases and increased flexibility, crude, ineffective measures like hiring bans and redundancies are the only available option.

I thought Croke Park was a fairly progressive deal that offered a middle ground between both sides. Its a shame it looks like it could be torpedoed.

[Macy]

But unless the unions continue to engage on issues like pension indexation, productivity increases and increased flexibility, crude, ineffective measures like hiring bans and redundancies are the only available option.
All the national agreements had productivity and flexibility clauses, that meant changes were put in place. When it happened, it happened without fanfare or comment (doesn't suit the agenda). The pension indexation is swings and roundabouts - under the last national agreement, pensioners would've been better off with inflation linked. Similarly, it suits the Government to park it now, with no increases likely for the next few years, whereas inflation will go up. imo It's a red herring.

They may be crude, and in some cases counter productive, but the measures introduced have been effective at reducing overall numbers (which I thought people wanted). Some organisations will be losing over a quarter of their staff by the end of the year between all the measures. There are lots taking the early retirement at the end of the year (the original deadline to keep the same entitlements). If passed, they'll be increased movement between the public sector (which was never a Union creation anyway, it was Government to give lesser terms to public servants compared with civil servants). Before calling for redundancies it should be let play out and see where we are.


I thought Croke Park was a fairly progressive deal that offered a middle ground between both sides. Its a shame it looks like it could be torpedoed.
Far to early to make that assumption. Even Horan from the CPSU left himself wriggle room (waiting to see what other results were, it would've been useful to have the clarifications before the ballot etc). SIPTU is only just starting to ballot.