Cardiff City/Derry City

[Cymro]

The Welsh clubs playing in the English league(thay have always played in England) should be treated as English clubs and let enter Europe through English club competitions. The Welsh League is only semi-professional(I'm probably being generous calling it that) and serves its purpose as providing a semi-pro competition for clubs in the principality (Wales historically it is NOT a nation/country like Ireland, Scotland or England anyway and Gordon Brown is Prime Minister in Cardiff the same way as he is in Bristol). Cardiff, Swansea and Wrexham are simply playing in their local professional league, 'the football league'. While the Welsh clubs in the English league would like to participate in the FAW to acknowledge their Welshness I can very much understand why they would prefer to not roll over and die by joining a Welsh league.

Your whole argument about Wales not being a country unlike England/Scotland/Ireland is irrelevant to the debate. I'd argue against it, but this isn't the thread for it.

However, in terms of football Wales is certainly a seperate nation to the other UK nations. Our national team is fully recognised by all the relevant powers and is as valid as any other international side. Our FA runs a fully recognised national league and cups and these are again acknowledged by the various powers. So in footballing terms, we are a seperate nation, that is indisputable.

The reasons why Swansea, Cardiff, Wrexham, Newport County, Merthyr Tydfil and Colwyn Bay all compete in England are historical although there are some grey areas for the non-league teams. Basically when the league was set-up in 1992 all Welsh clubs were playing in the English system of which the 'Welsh football league' was a division in non-league. Most Welsh clubs played in that, but those higher up, such as Bangor, Rhyl, Caernarfon, Newtown and others, as well as the ones stated above played in the higher echelons of the non-league and league pyramid against English teams.

In 1992 the FAW said that the non-league teams were told to join the newly formed national league. Eight of these resisted, including those listed above as well as Newport, Colwyn Bay and Merthyr. The league teams were given a period of five years' grace after which they too would join.

Only Merthyr were initially successful; the others then had long-running legal battles, which Newport, Colwyn Bay and Caernarfon won, while the others simply gave up and joined the league (although Caernarfon elected to quit the UniBond League a few years later and join the LOW).

The three league teams have never been approached legally despite the whole 5 years' grace having passed, so we still have the right to play in England and I suggest that if the FAW did try and force us to play in Wales we would resist strongly. However we are still full members of the FAW and are not registered with the FA. Technically, the FA wouldn't actually be able to nominate Cardiff for Europe even if they won the FA Cup because they don't have authority over them.

Also I find your comments about the Welsh Premier League to be pretty condescending and even factually wrong; there are actually two full time teams in the Welsh Premier, as has been mentioned.

As for the whole TNS thing, they are a club formed from a merger of two FAW-administered teams, Llansatffraid and Oswestry Town. Although Oswestry is actually something like 3 miles inside England they have always played their football in Wales so in light of that UEFA decided to let them keep playing here and represent us in Europe. That said, I do think we should be allowed to play in Europe by the same token. But it's not a situation that's likely to come up on any regular basis.

[Cymro]

Also, as for the whole Derry paralell: I believe Derry were forced out of the Irish League as opposed to the Welsh clubs playing in England who do so by choice so it's not really the same thing.

[historynut]

Well put Cymro, though one minor amendment Oswestry's link with Welsh FA is historic, rather than participation. Yes they did play in Welsh leagues and were regular entrants in Welsh Cup, the bulk of their legue football was in england, Cheshire League, Birmingham league, Northern Prem and if memory correct a short dabble in southern league.

[holidaysong]

Uefa boss Michel Platini has pledged to help Cardiff if they win the FA Cup, but are refused entry to the Uefa Cup.

[Cymro]

Well put Cymro, though one minor amendment Oswestry's link with Welsh FA is historic, rather than participation. Yes they did play in Welsh leagues and were regular entrants in Welsh Cup, the bulk of their legue football was in england, Cheshire League, Birmingham league, Northern Prem and if memory correct a short dabble in southern league.

They also joined the Welsh Premier in either 1992 when it was formed or in the next couple of years. I can't remember when exactly but they certainly played in it. They simply played in the English leagues before that because that was the common practice for the top Welsh non-league clubs, particularly those near the border.

[David]

I knew the Welsh clubs in the English League were affiliated to the Welsh FA. In the late 1980's Linfield were banned from playing home games at Windsor for two games and were told that home games had to be played at least 100 miles from Windsor Park. This obviously ruled out Northern Ireland and playing down south was not practical. There was talk of Scotland and playing at Ibrox but the Scottish FA said we could not play under their jurisdiction. The English FA soon said the same and it looked like we would have to go abroad until Wrexham kindly made the Racecourse Ground available to us and for that Linfield will always be greatful to them and their supporters who were absolutely fantastic to us. I have travelled all over Europe following Linfield and those two trips to Wrexham remain two of the best trips I have ever been on.

[historynut]

If correct dont think crowds for those 2 games exceeded 2000 on each occasion.
Was'nt first time Racecourse used by other clubs for Euro nights.
If also correct think there was an annual friendly between clubs for a number of seasons after. Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!

[holidaysong]

Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!

I'm sure David was a big fan of the co-Celtic hospitality..

[historynut]

Know dam well where you going with that !
Point being any fellow celt will always be welcome here as opposed to neighbours over border !

[David]

If correct dont think crowds for those 2 games exceeded 2000 on each occasion.
Was'nt first time Racecourse used by other clubs for Euro nights.
If also correct think there was an annual friendly between clubs for a number of seasons after. Not suprised you enjoyed trip co-celtic hospitallity !!!

I think we brought around 7-800 on each occasion and this was boosted by some locals. The hospitality was quite superb and the atmosphere in the wee pub or club that was sort of attached to the ground was fantastic. There was an annual friendly that run for a few years, one year in Belfast, one year in Wrexham in the wake of this.

[CvilleRovers]

derry city an irish team playing in an irish league, makes sense to me

[David]

A blatant attempt there to politicise a decent thread. Very sad.

[Cymro]

Well, Derry are an Irish team playing in an Irish league. They are a Northern Irish team playing in the Republic of Ireland's league.

Just ignore the bait and carry on with the thread.

[HarpoJoyce]

I knew the Welsh clubs in the English League were affiliated to the Welsh FA. In the late 1980's Linfield were banned from playing home games at Windsor for two games and were told that home games had to be played at least 100 miles from Windsor Park. This obviously ruled out Northern Ireland and playing down south was not practical. There was talk of Scotland and playing at Ibrox but the Scottish FA said we could not play under their jurisdiction. The English FA soon said the same and it looked like we would have to go abroad until Wrexham kindly made the Racecourse Ground available to us and for that Linfield will always be greatful to them and their supporters who were absolutely fantastic to us. I have travelled all over Europe following Linfield and those two trips to Wrexham remain two of the best trips I have ever been on.

Didn't Linfield and Shelbourne share a charter flight (at least outward) in 1993-1994 to Shels match v. Karpathy of Lvov (Ukraine) and Linfield's Dynamo of Tbilisi (Georgia).
Got the home draw aswell.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...=52/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ecw...135/index.html

[dcfcsteve]

Lilywhite stu you are more than correct in what you say. However would you believe TNS and Llanelli are actually full-time !
Not only that but TNS are now english based in Oswestry. This as a result of merger between TNS and Oswestry Town. Oswestry were actually founder members of Welsh FA in 1876. When they sold their old ground years back, though they did'nt compete for a while the club continued, when their new ground was completed they were allowed to enter Welsh football due to their historic link. TNS was the village team from Llansantfraid some 8 miles from Oswestry within the Welsh border. TNS took the name of their sponsers Total Network Solutions, however when that company was sold the club took a new name keeping the same innitials 'The New Saints'. The move to Oswestry was to a better stadium (cough, cough) wth artificial pitch, and potentially (cough, cough, must get some strepsils) better crowds !N
In respect of the big 3 in Europe they & Newport (when a league side) all had good runs in the old Cup Winners Cup. Cardiff actually reached semi's in late 60's, not too sure what Swans best run was, and Newport & my lot Wrexham both reached Q/finals. Now those were the nights in the 70's Anderlecht (1-2 over 2 legs) and they reckoned they were lucky and gave them harder game than WHU in final.

Lilywhite Stu - your ignorance of the current politcal make-up of the United Kingdom is staggering if you think Cardiff is politically and legilsatively no different than Bristol. If you don't think this, why did you chose to ignore than Gordon Brown nis Prime Minister of Glasgow and Belfast, just as he is Bristol ?

Historynut - TNS playing in Oswestry has a nice irony to it. As you may well know, that part of Shropshire and a large chunk of the Welsh marches area was historically part of Wales for centuries before the English re-drew their county boundaries to absorb it. I remember being fascinated by the presence of Welsh street names when I visited Oswestry.

[Cymro]

Indeed, and you'll find evidence of the Welsh language well into England, as far as Shrewsbury (Amwythig) and Crewe, as well as the obvious border towns of Chester (Caer), Hereford (Henffordd), and of course, Oswestry (Croesoswallt). I think there's still a smattering of Welsh speakers around those parts too, no doubt due in some part to emigration there as the Welsh towns on the border are very small.

[David]

Didn't Linfield and Shelbourne share a charter flight (at least outward) in 1993-1994 to Shels match v. Karpathy of Lvov (Ukraine) and Linfield's Dynamo of Tbilisi (Georgia).
Got the home draw aswell.
http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...=52/index.html

http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ecw...135/index.html

Vaguely recall something but am not sure. That was the time we progressed despite getting beat as Dynamo Tbilisi were caught attempting to bribe the referee.

[HarpoJoyce]

Vaguely recall something but am not sure. That was the time we progressed despite getting beat as Dynamo Tbilisi were caught attempting to bribe the referee.

Yes it's starting to come back. the UEFA site has Dynamo as victors in the Prelim. rd. Then show Linfield beating Copenhagen 3-0 in the next round.