Unions - The Root Of All Evil?

[carrickharp]

Unions - The Root Of All Evil?
Yes they are a pain in the hole, in the construction branch (don't now about the rest) it is just mostly a money making racket some of our employees don't want to be members but the have to be to work on certain sites

[rebs23]

Unions - Root of all evil? Certainly not. Have they outlived their usefulness? now that would be a better debate.
As someone who works in this area, all I can say is that some of the worst forms of bullying, intimidation and harassment I have witnessed in the workplace has been from militant trade unionists intent on getting their way.
Fortunately not all trade unions are like this but it does exist and it does put people off as well as the perception that this country is run by a government that cannot make decisions based on the democratic mandate they recieve from the people but have to stall and change decisions because of TU inflexibility and militancy.
Maybe it's human nature but in the areas they are strong the TU's tend to take the mcikey with their objections eg. Dublin Airport 2nd Terminal, Dart Trains etc, etc.

[The Good Son]

I still don't understand why people need unions. If you have problem at work you talk to your boss. If you don't like the response you resign. If the free market folks. Its not slavery.

Sure at the same time, if you have a problem with being forced to join a union in a job, then don't take up that job.
Pete, are you aware that the job market is not as rosy as it is made out to be.It's not that simple to quit your job and just walk into another. I work in a large manufacturing plant where you have a lot of engineers, teachers and various other trades working on a production line, because they don't have a choice, the work in their chosen trades is not there.
Where I work is unionised on the shop floor, my job is not unionised. There was a pay freeze world wide in the company a few years ago (despite the fact that huge profits were being made), the union here fought it and got what they were entitled to under the partnership agreement, I being non union got no pay rise for two years. I think the advantage of being in a union stands out clearly there. I also had the "pleasure" of being in the company's US plant (since closed, workers didn't get a cent in redundancy), which was not unionised, and the difference in conditions between the US plant and the Cork plant were unbelieveable. I can see why people have problems with unions, but in a factory environment, at the very least I know which I'd prefer.
Bottom line though, is Michael O Leary does not like unions so therefore they must be doing something right.

[Lionel Ritchie]

I have put X next to candidates of the PDs, Labour and the Greens in the past -so I don't think i can be labelled right or left wing.

I believe it is a fundamental right of any worker in any job to align themselves with a trade union and be represented by them in the event of a dispute.

I also believe a union is the only effective protection an employee has from being exploited and commoditised.

However contrary to the belief of too many in this country -your union is not and should not be a stick with which to beat employers, blackmail government or hold the general public to ransom.

I also believe we have too many different unions representing people within similar strata of the economy here. The story used go you'd more unions in Bus Eireann than in all of Germany.

We need serious reform of our laws in this country concerning availability of overtime etc... It is not realistic or fair that -by way of example - a prison officer can more than double his salary with grotesque amounts of overtime when we've still a couple of hundred thousand unemployed here.

[Macy]

However contrary to the belief of too many in this country -your union is not and should not be a stick with which to beat employers, blackmail government or hold the general public to ransom.

They don't though. For all the disputes going on, there is rarely industrial action let alone strikes. The threat is usually used to make companies follow proper procedures and go to the labour commissioners and/or the labour court. There isn't many strikes - this thread wasn't even about an actual strike, just the threat of one.

[Macy]

How do we know that?

Why does the civil service outsource so much work? Why can't the staff do it themselves? Its like the government outsources PR contracts when they have a whole department of PR civil servants.

As WAR has said, there's an embargo on Public Servants. It's Government policy which is leading to the number of consultants and agency staff that are in the civil and public service.

Just for the sake of arguement, ring a recruitment agency to see how much they'd be charging for staff for a week. Then get someone else with the required skills to phone and see how much they would get. I garantee that the agency cost is higher than the wage would've been if they recruited them. The only winner is the agency, and whichever politicians are getting the backhanders.

[pete]

I suspect that govt departments are not allowed hire extra fulltime staff because they would have to give a job for life then. Its common in many indutries to need short-term staff at busy periods.

I can't believe anyone thinks the multinational factories are slave houses - this whole economy is build on foreign investment. Without multinationals we'd be back to 20% unemployment.

While I know it can take some time in between jobs this country is close to full employment at 4% or so. As shown in Dublin Airport the unions are trying to increase unemployment.

[Macy]

I suspect that govt departments are not allowed hire extra fulltime staff because they would have to give a job for life then. Its common in many indutries to need short-term staff at busy periods.

They can give short term contracts and fixed term contracts. Doesn't have to be permenant pensionable (although if the jobs there, I don't see what the problem is). However, Government policy means they have to go to agencies. It makes no economic or financial sense - surely even you can see that?

As shown in Dublin Airport the unions are trying to increase unemployment.

I would suspect it's either fill them with their own staff, or give us the overtime. Not just go back to the days of casual employment and people hanging around waiting for someone to pick them up in the morning on the promise of a job. I'll wait until I see the union's side, rather than a potentially bias media report.

[Marked Man]

After hearing the news that Security staff at Dublin Airport are considering all-out strike action as part of a dispute over the hiring of part-time workers, I think it's fair to say tha Unions are more trouble than they're worth.

They hold the country to ransom and take advantage of their position to bully their employers. I think we should make it illegal to cause widespread disruption by industrial action. If I have a dispute with my boss, it's between him and I. Our customers should never be aware of it.

Be glad you have a cushy job and stop trying to deny others the chance to work a few hours a week.

So much for the vaunted Peoples' Republic of Cork, then, eh?

[patsh]

For the record I don't agree with what Irish Ferries are doing as it is illegal to replace make someone redundent unless there is no job for them. AFAIK the Irish Ferries workers are getting compensated a lot & under irish law they could refuse to accept argue that their job still exists.

However reality is that in that scenario Irish ferries would fold & make workers redundent & then start new company with new workers.

I've no doubt unions serve their own members at times but the unions do not serve the interests of the public & are selfish. In fact the most powerful & selfish unions is the white collar bank officials.

Can anyone tell me what unions have ever done for me?

Irish Ferries are a highly profitable company, that has been increasing it's profits almost every single year for the last 10 years. It's main profits come from it's freight business, as cheap air flights have meant a massive drop in passengers using ferries.
The report by some very expensive consultants hired by Irish Ferries themselves made certain recommendatios, which showed thatit could make more money on their passenger routes, by taking a few simple measures, one of which was a pay freeze for union workers, which was accepted by the unions and another meant senior managment taking a paycut of 5%.
This report was instantly rejected by the company.

I work alongside a person who is on a contract. She does exactly the same job as I do (sometimes a lot less!), but gets paid exactly double the money. Taking into account the prsi and health insurance contributions made on my behalf by the company, she is paid over €25,000 pa more than I am by the company.
The reason?
So that the company will have NO obligation to her whatsoever. They don't have to pay her holiday money, pay her when she is out sick for a day, can hire or fire her when it suits them and can, and do, act in a completely offhand manner with her. They are willing to shell out an extra €25,000 a year just so they don't have to treat her like a human being, with all the problems associated with humans.
When she gets near to being 23 months in this job, she wil be dumped, and a new person will start in her job the following Monday morning.
She is a statistic, nothing more. The extra money means very little to her, what she wants is a job she can rely on and plan for the future with. She is lucky with the arrangement she has, as she gets paid directlyfrom the company.
The third person working with us is also on a contract, but with an agency. The company pay the agency the same amount as money for him, as they do for the girl. Yet he gets paid the same amount of money as I do, so an agency gets the equivalent of one persons wages every year for simply paying prsi for him and sitting on their h*le.

What have unions done for you?
The right to be treated as ahuman being at work, to be paid a decent wage and given decent conditions. They have ensured that you get holiday pay, paid for bank holidays, as well as the bank holidays themselves, and are allowed time off for deaths, sickness, births, adoptions, special leave, unpaid leave, study leave and continuous education.
It's very easy to knock unions when industrial action is threathened because your flight is delayed or you are put to inconvenience. Maybe you would prefer to give up all the rights that unions have earned for workers and go back to the days of the mill-owners when worker's only right was to work themselves to death so that owner's could make more profits for themselves?

[SÓC]

Im really surprised at this thread.

Unions IMO are more important than ever in Ireland, proper planing of National Agreements and sticking to their word is one of the great reasons why were doing so well.

Sure some Unions do a lot of stuff thats pretty shoddy* but Christ even Fianna Fáil have been know to make mistakes from time to time . Throwing money at the "Labour" Party is another gripe I'd have with them but in general they stop Ireland from becoming one very big Irish Ferries Ship.

Divide and Conqure and all...

*Heard a great story about An Post for example from a friend who works there. Every day in Dublin one out of every four workers is on one days sick leave, all organised by...someone

[patsh]

*Heard a great story about An Post for example from a friend who works there. Every day in Dublin one out of every four workers is on one days sick leave, all organised by...someone

Did he tell you that there are nearly 600 vacancies for various jobs which are not being filled?
Or that the senior management in the company has made it as difficult as possible for the unions to discuss anything with them?

[SÓC]

Did he tell you that there are nearly 600 vacancies for various jobs which are not being filled?
Or that the senior management in the company has made it as difficult as possible for the unions to discuss anything with them?

Ah Pat remember your good leftist values, two wrongs do not a right make.

He does reckon that the industrial relations in the gaff is a constant ticking time bomb alright

[Macy]

Ah Pat remember your good leftist values, two wrongs do not a right make.

He does reckon that the industrial relations in the gaff is a constant ticking time bomb alright

Judging by the shíte their press officer comes out with.... And the fact that it was management that lead them into the mess in the first place. And the fact they haven't had wage increases that they've been due for years...

All the semi state companies have appauling IR departments, it isn't restricted to An Post.

[WeAreRovers]

Judging by the shíte their press officer comes out with.... And the fact that it was management that lead them into the mess in the first place. And the fact they haven't had wage increases that they've been due for years...

All the semi state companies have appauling IR departments, it isn't restricted to An Post.

One of the lads in my office is leaving to be....................Press Officer for An Post. Mind you, he's well able for it. I keep telling him horror stories from my mates who work there and he's not bothered. Could be something to do with being your genuine West Ham supporting Cockernee.

KOH

[Peadar]

And the fact they haven't had wage increases that they've been due for years...

I love the way public sector workers go on about the money they're owed. I've worked in many departments between Britain and Ireland where the technical staff are so incompetent, we've had to break our backs to implement new systems for them. On the days that they haven't taken as a flexi, they come in around 10.00 and leave around 16.30. We're expected to work with them even though they're available for half the day. Then they expect another pay rise because they've had to learn a new skill.
It stinks to high heaven!
I think government departments should be largely outsourced so that they attain some level of acceptable efficiency and become more cost effective.

By the way, all our public sector contracts have finished on time and within budget.

We don’t have a union but we do have line managers and a HR department who listen to us. Our salaries are performance based and our level or professionalism and productivity reflects that. Why? Because we know that if we screw up we don’t have a union to bail us out. I’m 8 years in this job and have never once been left down by my company. We get plenty benefits, including 3 paid days off for guys if your partner has a baby. There’s give and take in our company, it’s all about mutual respect.

[Macy]

It isn't extra money I'm talking about, it's the standard sustaining progress awards that everyone should've got. Only thing fooking up an post is management - can't blame staff when a company goes from massive profit to massive loss in just a couple of years.

On flexi - well that's their hours. Not a civil or public servants fault that your company has signed a contract to implement something in a certain timescale. Must have terrible people handling your tenders if they don't factor that in at this stage. Or maybe you just have no way of communicating that to them effectively, without a union

[pete]

I was watching Q&A on monday when some guy (think civil servant) in the audience suggested that 50% of software projects are overbudget & 25% fail - this was cited as industry practice to hide the failings of the PPARS project. If that was the case there would be no software industry.

I've heard first hand stories of ICTU staff being shafted of flexi leave for travel days so unions just as bad as any employer.

I still haven't heard a good reason to keep unions or why they think they can negotiate for me in National Pay Agreements. I elect TDs to do that for me. There are more people without union representation in this country than are.

[Dodge]

A slight exageration on the times there by peader. CS expects you to do 35 hour week (or 9-5 with an hours lunch) Pretty standard in all office based jobs I'd imagine.

A friend of mine was union rep in an post for a while. He'd be more militant than most but he reckons "its not as bad as it was..."

[WeAreRovers]

I still haven't heard a good reason to keep unions or why they think they can negotiate for me in National Pay Agreements. I elect TDs to do that for me. There are more people without union representation in this country than are.

Go back and read Patsh's post. Read it out loud if that helps.

KOH