Originally posted by tiktok fair enough, you might not consider it racism, in that attacking averladze wasn't based on his race and his nationality. but it's misleading (or just daft) to deny that the celtic led abuse of rangers players is free of religious bigotry (when historically the rivalry of their fans is steeped in it), which in my book is tantamount to racism.
religious bigotry maybe, racism no. I say maybe because even though you are probably right (although it is speculation) about the motivation of the said Celtic fans, its nearly impossible to prove. They would simply say they are Celtic fans booing a player who plays for the rival of their club. If they start using abusive, racist, religiously motivated language or whatever than this is certainly something which the FAI and UEFA could and would take serious action over.
Originally posted by tiktok i don't see how anyone can defend or even justify these absolute morons who carried this abuse out, even moreso now that our football association has had to answer the charge on it. is it really worth the damage this abuse can do to the reputation our fans have built over years so that a few idiots can get their bigoted jollies.
I agree they are morons but it can't be compared to the racist abuse Heskey and Cole experienced in Slovakia and so wont receive the same punishment. Simply booing a player is not the same as making monkey noises at him because he is black.
but what if the fans in the slovakia case had been booing them because they were black, yet claimed it was because they were man utd fans who disliked these particular liverpool and arsenal players. i realise this is a stretch but premeditated abuse of a player (who has no tangible negative connection with the team being supported) is inexcusable regardless of the severity of the abuse doled out.
you can have more serious cases but not cases which should not be taken seriously.
i recognise the argument that has been offered, that it's celtic fans booing a rival teams player, i just think it's pathetic and no excuse whatsoever.
who was it who said all it requires for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing, let's hope that the FAI take this as the warning it is and act on this rubbish quickly and effectively.
Originally posted by tiktok but what if the fans in the slovakia case had been booing them because they were black, yet claimed it was because they were man utd fans who disliked these particular liverpool and arsenal players. i realise this is a stretch but premeditated abuse of a player (who has no tangible negative connection with the team being supported) is inexcusable regardless of the severity of the abuse doled out.
Ridiculous, they weren't booing they were impersonating monkeys, a signifcant difference!
First of all it is more than just the booing that is the problem here it is the sectarian abuse terms such as "dirty proddie", "orange *******", "hun *******" as heard by me at the Denmark and Norway games in the west upper stand if heard by a UEFA observer could have the ground closed.
Not to mention the damage to our country and the reputation of our fans.
I organised tickets for Danish and Norwegian colleagues for those games and was disgusted at the comments.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante What on earth can the FAI do? Sweet F A in my opinion that will have any effect anyway.
They can use the successful English FA method which was as easy as appeals from the manager, captain and players followed by a brief media campaign asking for restraint. sounds really difficult.
Originally posted by Junior Ridiculous, they weren't booing they were impersonating monkeys, a signifcant difference!
As I said, IF they were booing, i acknowledged the difference when i said there were more serious cases but not cases that shouldn't be taken seriously
Silvio, if UEFA consider this abuse to be excessive (and why shouldn't they, many of us do) they can and will make us play behind closed doors. that is a stigma that irish fans will spend a very long time trying to put behind us. sh!t like this sticks and stinks for a long time.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante This is 'League of Gentlmen' stuff here. You'd swear Landsdowne is the centre of Uefa's attention. those boys have alot more to worry them than a couple of thousand Irish people giving an odd Rangers nobody boos every couple of years.
I agree UEFA have a lot more important things to do than worry about this which is still very much a minor incident when compared to what gos on in the rest of europe.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante I note my point regarding the booing of Roy is burried deep under the Cork carpets.
What was wrong with booing Keane when he was booed? He'd left the team in the lurch - for a minor tournament, granted - but he just decided not to bother heading out to the competition and to inform the manager at an unacceptably late stage. Don't see any problem with booing him for letting his and our national team down.
Just to point out by the way - didn't read any stuff by Dervan or anyone else in the papers back then - this is just the way I see it. Not saying it's right or wrong, just offering a reason where one was asked for.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 16/07/2003 at 6:16 PM.
The bottom line here is that the fella was being booed because he plays for a club who's history is the "wrong" religion. I have no time for the kind of idiots who perpetrate this vile crap. Anyone who says it isn't wrong is themself guilty of extreme prejuidice- if you attack (physically or verbally) a person on the basis of colour, ethnic origin or religion it is wrong; full stop. Those who do it, and those who ignore it are bigots. I like Celtic, I have said that countless times on these boards, but I'm not sad or stupid enough to think that means I must hate rangers. The people who are dong this should, IMO, be kicked out of the ground and banned for life from attending any football match anywhere. They have been asked by the manager and the FAI not to this and yet they persist, if they are supporters, they would get behind their own team.
I don't subscribe to the idea that what happened heskey is more or less serious than what happened arveladze: does it make a difference how prejuidiced one is? IS there a real and substantial difference to the upset one is likely to cause (for example) a black person by calling them (a) "a monkey" or (b) "A dirty f*ckin n***er." Is one more serious than the other, or are both despicable acts? In my opinion, anyone uttering any of this pathetic prejuidiced sh!t wants a good kicking, however "mild" or "serious" they believe it to be
As for Silvio Dante's point re Judas Keane, there's a huge difference booing someone based on religion and booing someone because they are perceived to have done wrong- for the record, what Dervan did was a disgrace- I think a supporter booing their own players is ridiculous except in the most extreme circumstances: such as if the SCUMBAG came back now.
silvio, silvio, silvio, you can't possibly rest your case based on what eanna said......unless right now you can explain to me what Averladze did wrong with respect to the irish side .
as to the question that UEFA have more important worries, that is probably the case. However, the international observer they send to the next irish international only reports on that game, so he's only got one thing to be worried about, doesn't he.
for the record, the keane booing affair was a disgrace and cathal dervan annoys me.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante So the FAI putting Paul McGrath or Mother Teresa Quinn on the box asking Celts not to boo a Rangers player will be heeded?
jesus, and there was i thinking i'd said management, captain and players.
the celtic fans might take a bit of notice if it was Brian Kerr, Kenny Cunningham and Colin Healy, and if the ring leaders didn't take notice then i'd imagine that the kids who only join in because they think it's cool might think twice, and the real fans might feel more support when telling them to shut the f*ck up.
Originally posted by Éanna The bottom line here is that the fella was being booed because he plays for a club who's history is the "wrong" religion. I have no time for the kind of idiots who perpetrate this vile crap. Anyone who says it isn't wrong is themself guilty of extreme prejuidice- if you attack (physically or verbally) a person on the basis of colour, ethnic origin or religion it is wrong; full stop.
Another view on this is that the guy got booed because he plays for Rangers, arch rivals of celtic. A club whom a significant proportion of Ireland fans support
I don't believe he was verbally attacked because of his colour, ethnic origin or religion. If he was it would be totally unacceptable.
Originally posted by Junior I don't believe he was verbally attacked because of his colour, ethnic origin or religion. If he was it would be totally unacceptable.
That was why he was bening booed- in the mind of the simpletons who do this, this guy is a "hun" i.e. a protestant, just because he plays for rangers, and therefore must be booed. It IS that simple
Originally posted by Silvio Dante Since when is the word Hun associated with Protestantism....?
"hun"
(from the word 'hanoverian' - protestant monarchy from hanover, germany who came to the british throne in 1714 with king george 1st, which in turn led to the jacobite rebellion)
1714 long enough for you.
I really am sick and tired of you defending the indefsible. There were sectarian comments at Lansdowne Road from "so called Celtic fans" directed at a few different Rangers and ex Rangers players.
They hav eno place at any football match but particularly at an Irish game considering they involve a battle between 2 British sides.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante It was a rhetorical question for Gods sake. My point is that I couldn't give a toss what their Religion is. The fact is that Rangers players, past or present, know what to expect and they're not disappointed....
gspain I wouldn't bother arguing with this guy- he's clearly a total Irish celtic "fan" stereotype: ignorant, predjuidiced and totally unwilling to see reason.
Originally posted by Éanna That was why he was bening booed- in the mind of the simpletons who do this, this guy is a "hun" i.e. a protestant, just because he plays for rangers, and therefore must be booed. It IS that simple
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, yeah its done because he's a "Hun" i.e. a Rangers player, nothing to do with his religion.
I happen to know a few Celtic fans who are of protestant faith, do fellow Celtic fans of Catholic faith call these Huns?...No they don't, simply because its a term associated with the team not the religion in this context.
There are indeed Religious bigots on both sides of the OF divide, and its pathetic, but you simply cannot claim that this is anything more than booing, if it happened at an OF game, I don't think you would be calling it Bigoted, Racist etc.....(admittedly, you probably wouldn't care less) but it would simply be all part of the club rivalry etc.. etc... Have you never booed rivals player?
I agree it has no place at an Ireland match, simply because it is a club rivalry issue but I don't subscribe to this religious, racist issue that some on here are suggesting.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante It was a rhetorical question for Gods sake. My point is that I couldn't give a toss what their Religion is.
Silvio, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and accept that you don't give a toss about religion, i'd agree with you that considerations like that have no place in football (or life in general..live and let live and all that).
But i don't buy that there wasn't an anti protestant/royalist undertone to the abuse by any of celtic fans at the games (for the record i'm not tarnishing all celtic fans, many don't go in for the 'love celtic must hate rangers' rubbish)
Originally posted by Silvio Dante The fact is that Rangers players, past or present, know what to expect and they're not disappointed....
i'm going to call you on this one right away, the booing of rangers players at ireland internationals is a very new thing. i"ve been to two scotland -v- ireland games without hearing a rangers player booed. there's been players like terry butcher and trevor stevens who've played against us and not been booed. so that statement is incorrect.
Originally posted by Silvio Dante Oh please. Enough of your moral high ground EL bull. I'm an Irish Celt and proud of it bud. Now get over it....
Nothing to do with me trying to claim the "EL moral high ground"- I have a Celtic jersey and cheer on the Bhoys too. As I said, I'm just not sad enough to think it means I have to hate rangers. I tried saying it nicely, now I'll just say it plainly- you are the kind of fool football could do without.
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