Some home truths are coming out now.Originally Posted by pineapple stu
Why were lunatics allowed to experiment on children ?
I don't know where a society that allows children to be experimented on is headed ? !
Couldnt agree with you more Stu on the HE/Him email bull****, i make a practise of avoiding doing business with anyone that carries on with that BS.
The problem with these zealots is they wont admit they are wrong despite the evidence, most of them are left wing versions of Donald Trump , evidence that doesnt agree with them is "Fake news"
Shocking to read this. Shocking.
Calling me out on comments nearly 2 years ago and not tagging me and then saying I have "blood on my hands" all the while lamenting the toxicity of debate is a tad ironic no?
All on a thread called Roe v Wade - and yet I'm the toxic one.
This is unbelievably poor form.
Last edited by dahamsta; 24/04/2024 at 2:19 PM.
Really? That's what shocks you out of this? Really?
Not giving kids drugs linked to cancer and infertility? Not experimental surgery maiming them for life? Not pressure put on parents that their kids might commit suicide if they don't go for the surgery? Not the allegation WPATH is an ascientific body of activists which has abandoned the Hippocratic oath? Not the fact Hilary Cass has been advised not to take public transport because of hateful messages received? Not the fact that gender clinics actively worked against Cass during her report? Not the fact that no-one will talk to kids about detransitioning?
None of that shocks you?
There's a strong suggestion that many kids with autism or depression or even teenage angst look to this trans idea as a solution for all their problems - only to later find it's not a solution at all, and in the meantime some have done permanent harm to themselves.
Anything which blindly promotes inclusivity of this ideal can only be seen as problematic.
I will acknowledge the "blood on the hands" comment was maybe a bit excessive and borne out of anger and (a) this scandal and (b) the way the discussion is handled broadly. You can argue people didn't really know what was going on. Some may even have been advised by people they trust, such as doctors. But they know now.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 22/04/2024 at 9:26 AM.
I haven't had the chance to read any of the reports or digest it in full. I'm sure you are sincere in your anger and fair play to you for standing up for what you believe in but next time when dragging up posts from almost 2 years ago perhaps take a deep breath and leave off the personal attacks. Thanks.
Excellently informed post = = The truth is out there.
I don't see what the issue with the thread being old is. It's a slow-moving forum and this is a huge development in what was being discussed
Similarly your complaints about the thread title and not tagging you are bizarre (you can't tag people here, and the thread naturally evolved away from the what is it originally was about, as can happen)
It does feel a bit like you don't want to engage in the topic given your previous reluctance to, but let's wait until your reply I guess. There seems no excuse for getting taken in by this stuff now.
There's a well-supported campaign now to get a full British government investigation into this, including how it got its teeth into schools to the extent it did.
You've already attacked me by calling my posts toxic and saying I've blood on my hands. Now you are making me out to be some sort of lunatic. I won't be replying to any of your specific posts so no need to wait. The thread may be slow moving but the topic isn't - I've had some revisions to my opinions in the meantime. And some stuff I'd still standby but won't be discussing it here at length. There are many many well supported campaigns to get the British government to investigate into a lot of things. Lets hope their investigation into this particular issue happens if there is wrongdoing - and it is through and comprehensive when found.
Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 22/04/2024 at 11:20 AM.
The Journal has some good articles on this. There's articles from both sides of the argument and a podcast (haven't listened yet).
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tav...56143-Apr2024/
https://www.thejournal.ie/readme/tav...56357-Apr2024/
https://www.thejournal.ie/cass-repor...59360-Apr2024/
I think what's clear is that there was a lot of rapid developments in trans care and activism and that the science has lagged behind in terms of some of the approaches that have become popular with many activists. I'd by hypocritical if I didn't think a science based approach is best, but that does have to be caveated with potential bias, that could be inherent based on where funding has come from, what sources have been used/excluded from the study etc.
What's certainly clear is that there's a need for wrap around supports, medical, psychological etc. There needs to be better collection of data and monitoring of results from different approaches. Work needs to be done to encourage broader participation in the studies, as it's evident that some chose not to participate in the Cass report that could have provided more insights. There's a good point made in the "against" article on the Journal about anti-trans weaponisation of the report, and potential backlash.
Tallaght Stadium Regular
Unfortunately this sort of stance is all-too-typical
I did call your posts toxic - you were warned in thread for example. You suggested my concerns as those of a "snowflake" in your opening post on the thread - I wonder will you now concede they're very valid indeed? My post 61 looks fairly prescient for example. This stuff hasn't just come to light now, despite your numerous protestations in the thread which haven't stood the test of time - saying there's zero hard evidence linking autism and gender dysphoria for example. You "could be convinced" that organisations should be allowed force people as their pronouns to their emails, but now there's growing evidence that people with autism, depression, or other unfortunate mental issues latch on to this as something great; the solution to all their worries. But it's not. It's making things worse for them by papering over real issues. And even pushing them towards the hands of loonie activists. (You mentioned D&I - another group that needs to take a long hard look at itself. Ironically I'm telling us all what to think, they've removed the possibility of other opinions - of diversity, as it were)
I've not called you some sort of lunatic - that's an absurd leap. Typical of the way this is discussed too often - throw some mud, run away, hope it sticks
Meanwhile, 16 senior psychologists - some of whom worked at GIDS - are the latest to add their voices to the call for an investigation into "the scandal unfolding at Gender Identity Development Service clinics"
(https://www.theguardian.com/theobser...server-letters)
Last edited by pineapple stu; 22/04/2024 at 7:40 PM.
Listen - there's a lot in that - and I will rebutt some of the items you've brought up in good time, maybe, if I ever get the chance to be as informed as I can. I haven't read the report or anything like in the level of detail you have. I don't like wading in on topics I'm not up to speed on - during Covid I got involved in some D&I initiatives in work and felt a little bit more informed at the time and I felt the initial criticism leveled at the pronouns discussion was unfair.
Few things -
Please do not drag me by my username into a long dormant thread to score some sort of point. If you want to mention general discourse then do it - there are plenty reference points online for you to link. Leave me out of it - or at least if you do, QUOTE ME - and quit it with the - "wasn't RAM awful that time when we discussed this in 2022 - isn't it typical".
Please do not call my posts toxic. I was not warned about my posts being toxic at the time - that is a lie. I regrettably used the word snowflake a few times and I apologized for that repeatedly. It was actually in reference to something Dahamsta said not you. That type of introspection is the opposite of toxic. You are ignoring this of course this to suit your narrative.
Saying people are "taken in" by "this stuff" - makes them out to be not of sound mind - as if they are incapable of making up their own minds. Please do not do that either. Its not a leap and its not throwing s1ht as you call it.
And lastly - in all my time posting on internet fora for the last 25 odd years I've never had to wake up and read anything like I did this morning when I logged on with a cuppa. You might want to tone things down a bit - not everyone is as vexed on such matters as you are. I'm really not sure why you are so belligerent on a football forum on Gender issues arising out of potential malpractice in the UK. Are there not loads of other places you could be discussing stuff like that, or are just trying to make a show of me? Like I said I've been posting on places like this for years - and guess what - I've been proved wrong more than I've been proved right. If I read up and discover you were spot on about everything I'll be sure and let you know. For now I'm off to wash the blood off my hands.
Last edited by Real ale Madrid; 22/04/2024 at 8:33 PM.
Fair points RAM - and again, I've clarified my initial comments which you seem to have originally accepted before rowing back a bit
I am not saying anyone is incapable of making their own minds up on anything - but there really is only one conclusion from this. Read through my post and the bits I reference and you'll likely, and independently, agree.
This is a Current Affairs forum and in fairness to the posters here (apart from the more Americanised ones - mark12345 for example) I've found the discussion - when it happens, which is too rare unfortunately - quite good. This is a big development on an existing topic; there's no reason not to re-open the discussion.
Latest development now is the Labour MP criticising the evidence in Parliament - 98% of trials ignored - but then issuing an apology a couple of days later. She'd been fed misinformation by Stonewall. One of the organisations called out for not cooperating with the report in the first place.
It looks like it'll take the Scottish parliament down too. The Scottish Greens - who seem to be just militant activists - are appalled at the idea puberty blockers are being discontinued. They repeat the lies about the weak evidence in Cass, and wonder what to tell people in treatment that it's being discontinued. (How about telling them the truth maybe?)
This stuff is horrific.
The Truth is coming out ~ ~ Why did the politicians go along with all of this madness when there was no evidence to back it up ? !
Folks, tone down the rhetoric please, remember the golden rule: attack the post, not the poster. If you can't, add the poster to your ignore list.
Well partly some of them are tapping into their votes from it - such as the Scottish Greens (I'm in Scotland at the moment so hearing a fair bit about them, hence the references). There's votes in this. I suspect those people believe in it, for whatever reason. As you say, there was never any evidence backing it up. It's a large part of why I find the pronouns stuff so problematic - it doesn't require evidence, it doesn't invite discussion (it instead demands you use the new pronouns for example), and it can put pressure on those who don't comply (transphobes).
For others, I'd say they just don't care - their job is to keep the economy bubble keeping inflating and that's it.
For others then, it's the sheer nasty way they were shouted down and dismissed as transphobes if they tried to question any of it. JK Rowling has a thread on Twitter of people whose careers have been hugely impacted by putting their heads up above the parapet.
There's a very good article in the Telegraph this week about it -
A couple of weeks ago this sort of article would likely not have been printed. That's progress at least. There needs to be an immediate review of how this is covered in schools now. Immediate.Having told children there are zillions of genders and provided schools with “trans-inclusive” information packs, lobbyists have spread the idea that unless kids conform to regressive stereotypes (the trans flag is literally pink and blue) then they may, in fact, be the opposite sex. Parents and teachers have gone along with this rather than be cast out of this new world of “inclusivity”.
How does anyone who has enforced this row back? How do we deprogramme a cult? Cult thinking, after all, involves unquestioning commitment; thinking one is on a special mission to save humanity; an “us versus them” mentality; peer pressure that may induce guilt or shame; the cutting of ties with family and friends; and being very fearful of ever leaving.
Of course, this specific row is about puberty blockers in kids - but there's broader related issues to be tackled too, chief among them being allowing men complete in women's sport.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 25/04/2024 at 6:59 PM.
Another well-written article, this time in the Guardian (that bastion of liberalness), and this time from David Bell, the original Tavistock whistleblower.
There's the damaging potential of this pronoun nonsense showing through again.The policy of “affirmation” – that is, speedily agreeing with a child that they are of the wrong gender – was an inappropriate clinical stance brought about by influential activist groups and some senior gender identity development service (Gids) staff, resulting in a distortion of the clinical domain.
The conclusion really hits the point -
As I mentioned earlier, the Scottish government is now on the brink of collapse over this. Last week the SNP ended their power-sharing agreement with the Scottish Greens - there was a rumour the Greens were going to end the agreement themselves over the SNP cancelling Scotland's 2030 carbon targets, but the Greens were also deeply unhappy about the Cass Report (and NHS Scotland's actions in cancelling puberty blockers for kids), and their leader mis-read the room when refusing to answer whether he even thought it was a scientific report, so the SNP took the chance to push the Greens away first.The pendulum is already swinging towards a reassertion of rationality. Cass’s achievement is to give that pendulum a hugely increased momentum. In years to come we will look back at the damage done to children with incredulity and horror.
That left the SNP in minority (63 v 65) and Labour immediately took the chance to lodge a motion of no confidence in the First Minister. That was due to be voted on tomorrow, but he fell on his own sword on Monday and resigned.
Technically the Government have 28 days to elect a new First Minister, otherwise it's to the polls. And all because one party wants to keep pumping poisonous chemicals into the atmosphere and the other wants to keep pumping poisonous chemicals into kids. Truly humans are awful at times.
For the sake of perspective, this gives another take and highlights some potential biases to be aware of (it may be this that Bell is responding to as he includes some rebuttals). It's also from the Guardian opinions section: https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...hildren-review
Tallaght Stadium Regular
I think with respect, that's a bit of a news dump without any real context. Is there any particular comments in it which sum it up or which you feel give perspective?
A quick skim of that article suggests to me it's quite biased - for example puberty blockers are described as "previously-uncontroversial" - but that's not the case. Concerns have been raised about them before (David Bell for example), and Cass says they were effectively never properly tested. That in itself is hugely controversial (just the activists pushing this agenda never revealed that part...) The article repeats the myth that regret rates are 1% - but Cass says the data behind this is woefully inadequate. There's other examples too in there I think.
Bottom line - you can't dismiss a report which raises huge concerns in the area of trans ideology as "anti-trans" ("If the Cass review was held under a black light, we would see the fingerprints of anti-trans ideology"). If it's the case that an ideology is nonsense, then calling that nonsense out is what we need. And the suggestion that "young people [...] will, understandably, feel betrayed", with no real basis at all, is quite disgusting in light of what Cass says the dangers of the current ideology are.
So while I'm not sure what exact points you think should be taken from the article, I don't see it adds any sense of perspective.
This is just an anecdote but it is interesting. My wife recently started a new job and befriended one of her new coworkers. They got to sharing stories and this coworker shared about her 14 y/o daughter who in 2019 had come forward to share that she was transgender and wanted to talk to a doctor about it. Her parents were shocked (and secretly devastated) but also wanted to be supportive to their daughter and brought her to counselling, to a doctor, she got a specialist referral that they were planning to take her to where medical/surgical interventions, including things like puberty blockers, were on the cards. They didnt realize that they were, in supporting her, acquiescing and providing approval for his journey. Kid starts totally changing her appearance through hair, clothes and chest restrictors and stuff. Anyway, Covid hits in March 2020 and everything gets shut down and locked down. Kid is off school and locked down most of the summer - she is away from her teachers and friends. Things start coming online properly the following year... anyway, about end of 2020, start of 2021 she comes to her mum and breaks down crying saying she doesnt know what she is doing and asks if they can go dress shopping. Turns out her teachers were promoting gender identity, talking about options, what to do if you feel a certain way, encouraging medical route. Some kids, her friends, latch onto this too and it becomes almost a trend as this lady put it to be transgender/queer and she felt confused [duh shes a teenager] and peer pressure, as well as being influenced by those in positions of perceived authority. She's on her way to college now and is a happy enough, well adjusted kid with some psychological health issues that she is dealing with capably. Covid kind of saved her from herself, her peers and her [no blame on them] ill-equipped parents.
Thats one person, one story in the arse end of Canada - but the number of similar situations - or worse where the kids go through with it - is many, many multiples of that. Kids are kids and teenagers are just slightly bigger kids going through a lot of change. They need to be protected from this stuff, not encouraged to entertain these notions at these ages or be unduly exposed to adult concepts at this age. Let kids be kids and let teenagers deal with teenage stuff as we all tried to do. It starts to build character and resilience. Let adults make adult decisions when they are adults. I'm going to probably get this wrong but the adult brain isnt fully developed until you hit your mid twenties. In other words, you do a lot of dumb fckin sh!t when you are young - without any encouragement. To have "the system" [medical, educational, pharma, media, etc], promoting, encouraging and providing essentially unfettered access to this type of stuff is crazy and wrong.
Pineapple, I am delighted you resurrected this thread and provided the links you did as i hadnt heard/read about any of that until then.
You're actually spot on - Hilary Cass mentions 25 in her report, for exactly the reasons you note.
That's a horrible story - and now add the risk of cancer and infertility to it (though it seems she avoided this thankfully - it's linked with puberty blockers. Testicular atrophy in males for example - because they're ****ing puberty blockers; what do you think they're going to do?) and also add in professionals telling you your child is at a higher risk of suicide if they don't go down this route (even though the data doesn't back this up) and you can see how nasty this stuff all is.
And yeah, the way so many people go out of their way to be inclusive of this - that's exactly what Cass calls out as a significant risk in her report. Shock as confused teenager attaches to something that seems popular and cool. There's guidelines on how to report suicides precisely because it's been shown teenagers can fall foul of social contagion and do something, however harmful, because they see others doing it and getting attention for it. And it's exactly why we shouldn't go putting our pronouns everywhere and pushing trans ideology, which can't even be properly diagnosed, and in many many cases is an unrelated mental issue.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 02/05/2024 at 4:22 PM.
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