The Frontline

[saint dog]

anyone see this last night
a few decent points made on the social welfare
think everyone agrees the system just has to change

[kingcorner]

Ya I watched it, I have to admit I never liked Pat Kenny but since this show started I have always watched it.

I couldnt believe my eyes when that women was doing the potential earnings in welfare etc. for a married couple with 2 children! It is actually crazy. They could be earning anything upto 35k for sitting on their hole. The system needs to be changed big time.

[Macy]

I couldnt believe my eyes when that women was doing the potential earnings in welfare etc. for a married couple with 2 children! It is actually crazy. They could be earning anything upto 35k for sitting on their hole. The system needs to be changed big time.

If that's actually realistic. When these types of things have been done before, they use the maximum amount of every social welfare head, and also tend to under estimate the tax credits/ bands that such a married couple would be able to claim. You'd have to see the workings, but for example, when they were discussing the value of the medical card she was ignoring the tax back.

I try to avoid it if at all possible, as the programmes I've seen have been so unbalanced and bias that they've been a waste of time. From the snippets I saw featuring the tax "expert", Callan being bitter and some hotelier trying to reduce the basic rates, this addition seemed no different. There is a debate to be had on the restructuring on Social Welfare, particularly the total cut off levels, but from what I saw it was the same old right wing types using the same old cliches.

[mypost]

Ya I watched it, I have to admit I never liked Pat Kenny but since this show started I have always watched it.

I couldnt believe my eyes when that women was doing the potential earnings in welfare etc. for a married couple with 2 children! It is actually crazy. They could be earning anything upto 35k for sitting on their hole. The system needs to be changed big time.

Needless to say but anyway, they use the extreme example as proof of how the system works.

Nothing about the 18-year old apprentice thrown out of Halifax for the return of €100 a week for the next 12 months. With no prospect of getting another job in this country for years.

When those examples are highlighted, there might just be a balanced debate on the issue.

[Dodge]

I lost all respect for Preimetime (and seeing as its the same editorial staff Frontline) when they "profiled" he LOI

Its the ony subject I@d soncsider myself an expert on and they had tons and tons of lies and inaccuracies. Led me to believe that all their investigations were shoddily arranged

Absolutely no doubt they have an obvious political slant too

[saint dog]

my only fear would be if there was a change in the system it would end up favouring the people who already seem to get too much ie people who never worked a day in their life ..

[Mr A]

The Frontline can be OK, but tends to be more than a little hysterical. I seldom make it through without getting annoyed and changing channel.

[peadar1987]

There should be a system whereby if you're claiming the dole, you're either being educated (in a real course, not social science or theology), or you take the first job you're offered, be that cleaning toilets or picking up dog mess. You don't do the job, you don't get the dole (with certain exceptions, of course).

I'd consider myself a socialist, but if you don't contribute to society, you shouldn't expect anything in return.

[kingcorner]

Needless to say but anyway, they use the extreme example as proof of how the system works.

Nothing about the 18-year old apprentice thrown out of Halifax for the return of €100 a week for the next 12 months. With no prospect of getting another job in this country for years.

When those examples are highlighted, there might just be a balanced debate on the issue.

I totally agree with your statement.

What really annoys me that I have to get up at 6 every morning for work and not come home until after 8 in the evening when somebody can be doing feck all at home and getting the same and probably more money annually then me.

[mypost]

I totally agree with your statement.

What really annoys me that I have to get up at 6 every morning for work and not come home until after 8 in the evening when somebody can be doing feck all at home and getting the same and probably more money annually then me.

I don't know what what you're agreeing with, but at least you can get up at 6am for work. Most of the 250k people claiming the full dole would love that luxury.

[kingcorner]

My original point was about the amount of money some people can claim if they are out of work. There is no way a family with 2 children could be earning potentially 35k a year. I know they were using this as an extreme example.

You are right, MOST of the people on the dole would love to be working but there is a percentage of people who are happy out on the dole with no intention of getting a job. I know a few of them.

[bennocelt]

There should be a system whereby if you're claiming the dole, you're either being educated (in a real course, not social science or theology), or you take the first job you're offered, be that cleaning toilets or picking up dog mess. You don't do the job, you don't get the dole (with certain exceptions, of course).

I'd consider myself a socialist, but if you don't contribute to society, you shouldn't expect anything in return.

Would you that that kind of job yourself?
I know I wouldnt

[peadar1987]

Would you that that kind of job yourself?
I know I wouldnt

I've done that sort of job in the past (cleaning toilets, but if someone had paid me I would have done the dog mess as well. I've had the dubious pleasure of cleaning a ****e out of a urinal, after that, using a poop scoop sort of pales in comparison!)

And those were just examples of the sort of job, I'm sure in reality, most people would take on a FÁS course, or less "unappealing" jobs if they were on offer. And of course, if there are literally no unskilled jobs in the entire country, they get to stay on the dole

Having just graduated from college, there are plenty of my peers who are happy to sit with their degree in theology or literature, claim the dole, and tap Daddy up for a few quid when they begin to run short. Let's see how much they love their bohemian lifestyle when they're given the choice between gettin up off their arses, putting away the Xbox and looking for a job, or just being allocated the closest unskilled position that happens to crop up. If they really don't like it, they don't have to accept taxpayers' money to pick their hole all day

[SkStu]

Having just graduated from college, there are plenty of my peers who are happy to sit with their degree in theology or literature, claim the dole, and tap Daddy up for a few quid when they begin to run short. Let's see how much they love their bohemian lifestyle when they're given the choice between gettin up off their arses, putting away the Xbox and looking for a job, or just being allocated the closest unskilled position that happens to crop up. If they really don't like it, they don't have to accept taxpayers' money to pick their hole all day

this is where the real abuse lies. My brother is one of these people and it sickens me. He has a law degree but is happy to sit on his arse ALL DAY getting up at midday and pottering about the house. It bothers me, big time. I put it down to laziness and he just thinks its great craic to mooch off the system.

[Dodge]

My original point was about the amount of money some people can claim if they are out of work. There is no way a family with 2 children could be earning potentially 35k a year. I know they were using this as an extreme example.
.

A family of four would need about that to survice

And you're ignoring all those who have pointed ut that that even then, its an extreme case

[kingcorner]

If you read my last post you would see that I did say this was in extreme example's.

I dont care if a family of four would need this to survive, they are making alot of money for doing NOTHING. How anybody could justify this is a madman.

Maybe im the mad one for thinking this is ridiculous.

[saint dog]

If you read my last post you would see that I did say this was in extreme example's.

I dont care if a family of four would need this to survive, they are making alot of money for doing NOTHING. How anybody could justify this is a madman.

Maybe im the mad one for thinking this is ridiculous.

i agree, and still think a lot of couples with kids who never work have more dispossible income than a couple with kids working all their lives in an average job
and to me that is so wrong

[Macy]

The most basic thing that this entire debate misses is that there is sod all jobs! The SFA, ISME's, Hoteliers etc who appeared to have prominent positions in the "debate" on the Frontline have no shortage of labour that is being created by social welfare rates. Their agenda is cutting wage rates - they see the opportunity now that wasn't there when we had full employment and there was a genuine opportunity to address issues.

Same as the public sector wages, many working people get caught up in the hysteria and spin about what this is really about, and ultimately reap what they sow in their own pay packet. Even if you believe the hype, if the couples with kids who never work are hit, do you think the couple that do work will be unscathed in the fall out?

[saint dog]

no i dont , i think if the system changes it will once again favour the ones who have never bothered to work
and not the ones who find the self unemployed or not the general worker

[weecountyman]

Anyone here who has, at any time, been on the dole or unemployed and waiting for the same, knows that a little bit of your soul gets chipped away. Complaining about those who are "happy to sit on their backsides and get money for nothing" is going to be the case in every generation, not just now whentimes are tough. Anyone living up in the border area (esp Louth/Monaghan) remembers when the foot and mouth disease descended and hammered the local economy. It was a time of scam destruction but for anyone whose job depended on working outdoors or crossing the border, it was a nightmare. I was told I couldn't work for an entire month, which ended up 6 weeks. I wasn't going to get paid as there was no precedent and had to go immediately to the dole office in Dundalk (old one) to sign on, as nobody knew how long it would last. I did, and they told me it would take some time to process and I should go to the health board office in the meantime. I did, and couldn't figure how I'd landed in such hell. Then I was surrounded by local druggies and drunks, "asylum seekers" and even scam artists (a guy I knew who worked as a barman but used to come in and claim when he needed a few quid for partying). I ended up getting nothing as they deemed my situation was "uncertain".

Fast forward to 2009 and my contract runs out and nothing new comes up, so I decide I'll sign on to keep a presence (and avoid questions of - what were you doing when....). In January I "signed on", in May I was still awaiting the outcome of the claim, I wasn't alone and only for work turned up in June I'd still be waiting. In times of crisis the debate will always be "Look at them spongeing off the system", "Lower the minimum wage" etc, as Macy rightly points out, the self-interested parties are demanding for wage reform, but they seem to forget, when people earn they put it back into the economy thus lifting it all. Frontline and Prime Time are always going to act in the best interests of the government, and this will be to hammer the average family because ultimately they won't cut off the "goodwill" supply.