Kosovo declares independence

[Lim till i die]

Kosovan independence is a joke.

Unemployment is around the 40% mark.

The main industry is organised crime.

Heard this morning they are relying on Albania to supply them with power. (You know a country is on a firm footing when it's relying on Albania!!)

What we have here is the creation of a US/Western client state in a Russian sphere of influence.

[Poor Student]

Kosovan independence is a joke.

Unemployment is around the 40% mark.

The main industry is organised crime.

Heard this morning they are relying on Albania to supply them with power. (You know a country is on a firm footing when it's relying on Albania!!)

LTID, none of the above would be rectified with Kosovo in the limbo of de facto independence but still under technical Serbian juristiction.

What we have here is the creation of a US/Western client state in a Russian sphere of influence.

Kosovo will be just that but the benefits that come with it may enable the region/country to improve its living standards. I just hope that Serbian reaction to this won't drive them away from the West and into the arms of Russia.

[Lim till i die]

LTID, none of the above would be rectified with Kosovo in the limbo of de facto independence but still under technical Serbian juristiction.

The region of Serbia should be handed back to Serbia.

I would consider this preferable to a bout of EU imperialism.

Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign state??

Kosovo will be just that but the benefits that come with it may enable the region/country to improve its living standards.

Creating makey-uppy countries along etchnic lines isn't exactly the wisest move if long term stability in the Balkans is what you're after.

I just hope that Serbian reaction to this won't drive them away from the West and into the arms of Russia

With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

[Poor Student]

The region of Serbia should be handed back to Serbia.

Rightly or wrongly I think the situation has long passed that being a viable possibility.

I would consider this preferable to a bout of EU imperialism.

I prefer EU influence in the area than Russian.

Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign state??

Isn't the High Representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina an EU appointed position?

With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on. Serbia would never be able to exercise authority over the region again without severe heavy handedness and I am not sure if they'd even be be capable of that post NATO. Serbia needs to look towards the European common market and Western investment and develop a more open outlook or they risk becoming an isolated island encircled by EU and Western interests.

[HarpoJoyce]

Poor Student you have made your preferences clear, and that is too your credit.

Is this the first time the EU has annexed land from a sovereign State?

Isn't the High Representative of Bosnia and Herzegovina an EU appointed position?

But answering a question with a question about another country in the region is, I believe unfair. The answer to your question is no the High Rep of BiH is appointed by a 55 country organisation called the Peace Implementation Commmitte set up as part of the Dayton Accord(s)
http://www.ohr.int/pic/default.asp?content_id=38563

Since that time the EU has made the Office its representative in Bosnia that should not diminish from the initial intention of the Office.
http://www.ohr.int/ohr-info/gen-info...ntent_id=38612
BiH after all have their own elected representatives.

Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on. Serbia would never be able to exercise authority over the region again without severe heavy handedness and I am not sure if they'd even be be capable of that post NATO. Serbia needs to look towards the European common market and Western investment and develop a more open outlook or they risk becoming an isolated island encircled by EU and Western interests.

I think the Kosovo Declaration will remain in Serbian politics for a long time. The Stability Pact for South East Europe
http://www.stabilitypact.org/ ( no longer Balkans or Near East) holds some of the purse strings and can chastise or complement as sees fit.
http://www.stabilitypact.org/pages/p...p?y=2008&p=645
"The re-election of President Boris Tadic is a clear sign that Serbia has voted for its European future and has rejected its nationalist past. Special Co-ordinator of the Stability Pact for South Eastern Europe Erhard Busek expressed its great satisfaction over the victory of Tadic and the very high turnout at the elections."

Statements from the SEE like the one quoted above only help to polarise politics in Serbia.

[Magicme]

I dont really know the ins and outs of it but I used to go out with a Kosovar during the war. He was a refugee in Holland and his best mate was the son of the "President" of Kosovo. There were a gang of them and they were very adamant that they should be an independant state but they had to leave or become gun fodder in the turmoil there. I have lost touch with them but for their sake I hope their independance is all they hoped it would be.

[Lim till i die]

There were a gang of them and they were very adamant that they should be an independant state but they had to leave or become gun fodder in the turmoil there.

Honestly, I think it's a weight lifted off their shoulders. They can be done with the area and move on.

Do you honestly see this happening PS??

This is the Serbs we're talking about.

Has the potential to turn the whole region into a tinder-box again.

What if the large Albanian minorities in Macedonia and Montenegro (Both only in the international door themselves) decide to get the hump about a Greater Albania??

What about the Magyars in Slovakia, Romania and elsewhere further north??

Yet another example of "Great Powers" ballsing up the Balkans

[DaveyCakes]

Where have the recent posts on this topic disappeared to?

[Bluebeard]

Where have the recent posts on this topic disappeared to?

Shunted into off-topic

[paudie]

Yet another example of "Great Powers" ballsing up the Balkans

Yeah, if only they'd let Milosovic and Tudjman sort it out things would have been hunky dory

What if the large Albanian minorities in Macedonia and Montenegro (Both only in the international door themselves) decide to get the hump about a Greater Albania??

The chances of a Greater Albania seem pretty slim as Albania "proper" seems to have little interest in it.

If Albania wasn't inclined to merge with a vastly ethnicly Albanian Kosovo they'll hardly be interested in Albanian minorities in other countries.

Probably more interested in preventing another economic collapse caused by pyramid schemes

[Partizan]

Serbia is upping the ante on NATO big time. While the K-Serbs destroyed the illegal border posts, quite a few MUP (Interior Police) slipped in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008.../kosovo.serbia

Serbs & other non Albanians serving in the Kosovo Police Force (KPS) are expected to resign en masse. The valuable Trepca mines worth billions will now be under control of Belgrade.

[Lim till i die]

Yeah, if only they'd let Milosovic and Tudjman sort it out things would have been hunky dory

You can't make an omlette without breaking a few eggs

[DaveyCakes]

I'll copy this in again, seeing as some has been deleting posts without reading them....

Originally Posted by Poor Student
I prefer EU influence in the area than Russian.

As long as the EU (and non-EU countries in Eastern and Southeastern Europe)is importing gas from Russia, there will be a huge Russian influence in the area, whether you prefer it or not and regardless of makeup the governments in any of the countries in the region...$£€

See the agreements recently signed between Russia and Bulgaria and Serbia:

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/...aria-Putin.php

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22792744/

That's not to mention the cultural and historical links.

You seem to have a big problem with Russia

[paudie]

Serbia is upping the ante on NATO big time. While the K-Serbs destroyed the illegal border posts, quite a few MUP (Interior Police) slipped in.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008.../kosovo.serbia

Serbs & other non Albanians serving in the Kosovo Police Force (KPS) are expected to resign en masse. The valuable Trepca mines worth billions will now be under control of Belgrade.

Interesting.

Probably inevitable that Serbs in the North would effectively separate themselves from Kosovo and opt for control from Belgrade. Can only hope that there is little or no violence as a result.

[SkStu]

Creating makey-uppy countries along etchnic lines isn't exactly the wisest move if long term stability in the Balkans is what you're after.



With all due respect, if you were in the Serbian governments shoes how would you react to part of your country being stolen??

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

[HarpoJoyce]

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

You guessed wrong SKStu.

Most posts here are trying to understand the reality of the situation at the moment. Nobody yet has tried to provoke, on a very sensitive subject. South East Europe matters, its important, that's why people from very far away are trying to get to grips with it and understand a little of what's going on. A Declaration has been made and posters are attempting to predict or anticipate the future.

[SkStu]

agreed for the most part but i feel the points i made still stand and that LTID's comments are pretty wide of the mark on historical and moral grounds.

For what its worth, its fascinating how this will develop going ahead. The Canadian government here are reluctant to recognise Kosovo and the reason for this is reumoured to be the potential for the status of Quebec to suddenly become an issue in the country again. We'll wait and see how this impacts the rest of the world (could Serbian antics be responsible for another world war?)

But on the sole issue of Kosovo's declaration i feel it is valid for an ethnic group to be allowed determine how the country, its lands and its people are managed. Are the Kosovars any less worthy of determining their own destiny than the Croats, Slovenes or Bosnians?

[deecay]

Right wing Ultra scum all over europe displaying their anger at it with countless banners

[Poor Student]

there is so much wrong with these statements.

1) Serbia created "Yugoslavia" and tried to promote a culture of interbreeding between Serbs (on one side) and every other nationality there (on the other). The only thing is their treatment of the peoples there only enforced nationalism and pride in ones culture. Whats happening now is no surprise. The "Yugoslav" was a far more manufactured country/nationality than Kosovo ever will be.

What are you talking about? Yugoslavia was formed when the State of Slovenes, Croats and Serbs agreed to unite with the Kingdom of Serbia. The idea of Yugoslavism (in various shapes and forms) existed for over a century before that in Slovenia, Croatia and Serbia. Sub-national identities existed quite happily in Yugoslavia post WW2 until the 1980s. Slovenia for example perfectly retains its culture, language and identity today as it did throughout Yugoslavia's existence. If anything Yugoslavia safe guarded it.

2) Serbia stole all that land and the profits from it in the first place and i am delighted to see them get a taste of their own medicine. The way youre talking you make the Serbs sound like victims - HA!

Care to elaborate on that? The land was part of one of the older Serbian kingdoms before Ottoman Turkey defeated and annexed Serbia to its empire. It's the site of Serbia's equivalent of the Battle of Clontarf or the Boyne and contains some of Serbian orthodoxy's holiest sites. Over the centuries Ottoman dominance saw the area clear of Serbs as the moved towards the border with the Austrian empire. Serbia reclaimed the area when the Ottoman empire finally collapsed in WW1.

To say they stole it is a flippant description. I don't justify Serbian claims on the territory now but the Israeli state was borne out of historical claims to an area then released from Ottoman rule. Irish nationalists claim an area which ceased to become majority Irish due to centuries of annexation. Such situations are not black and white and play out very differently in different contexts. LTID understands that the Serbians will feel aggreived and victimised because in this particular circumstance outside influences have conspired against them to see them lose in this situation. They only have to look across their Western border to see Serbs forced to be part of the state of Bosnia whether they like it or not. In order to move on and build better relationships in the future it's important to see where the Serbs are coming from.

But on the sole issue of Kosovo's declaration i feel it is valid for an ethnic group to be allowed determine how the country, its lands and its people are managed. Are the Kosovars any less worthy of determining their own destiny than the Croats, Slovenes or Bosnians?

Croatia, Bosnia and Slovenia were seperate republics within Yugoslavia. When the country dissolved they seceeded as independent republics. The international community was quite specific in insisting the republics themselves could seceed as they wanted to hold Bosnia together. There are Croats and Serbs in Bosnia who would rather join their mother states. Kosovo was only a province within the Republic of Serbia, which for quite some time remained in a larger state structure itself (the continuation of Yugoslavia and the state of Serbia & Montenegro). As has already been pointed out following you state for every ethnic group policy would have further larger implications globally and in the Balkans. What about the Hungarian and Italian minorities in Slovenia? What about the Slovenian minorities in Austria and Italy? What about the Croats and Serbs in Bosnia? What about the Albanians in Serbia, Montenegro and Macedonia? Perhaps most pertinent to this issue, what about the Serbian minority in North Kosovo? Do you keep redrawing the borders to meet shifting ethnic trends?

Do you honestly see this happening PS??

This is the Serbs we're talking about.

I think secretly the likes of Tadic are probably happy the issue has come to a head. It's been looming over everyone's head like the sword of Damocles. Sure, the Serbian radical party will harp on about it and you'll always have rabid nationalists who won't let it go but I think most people will cool off on the issue in the coming years. I think a lot of the violence in Belgrade is being perpetrated by Partizan and Red Star hooligans. A Serb I know is delighted it's happened so things can move on.

[GavinZac]

Right wing Ultra scum all over europe displaying their anger at it with countless banners

im confused as to why they are scum?