QuoteThe old firm dominance of Scotland goes back much further than European money though. One or other of them have won the league 80-90% of the time right back to the 1890s.
But does it really ??Originally Posted by Rossi
Inverness or Falkirk get 6,000 odd for their games against ther Old Firm. Whooppee-doo. We're talking about tiny crumbs here that are falling off the banqueting table of the big 2.
The SPL is the worst possible example to give of broad fiscal benefit arising from the dominance of one or two clubs. The gulf in Scottish football is now so big that there an inbuilt permanent imbalance. Honestly - can anyone see a future where both of the Old Firm are not dominant beyond the short term ??? Even the presence of a multi-millionaire Lithuanian banker at Hearts couldn't break the mould. You might be able to out-perform one or other of the Old Firm on occasion, but to out-perform both on an ongoing basis is impossible within the current SPL.
The old firm dominance of Scotland goes back much further than European money though. One or other of them have won the league 80-90% of the time right back to the 1890s.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
This reform is part of platini's plans and on the face of it looks good. However the big clubs are trying to fight it off and prob will. In terms of the 1st irish team getting to CL proper bringing a new rosenborg type dominance;well i'm all for it - it would only benefit the entire league in terms of exposure and would increase transfer fees once again.I'd love to see a team flying the flag for Ireland in the european super elite deluxe league.
Last edited by neutrino; 30/11/2007 at 12:43 PM. Reason: grammar
"Excuses are the nails used to build a house of failure"
But the point still stands that having what is effectively structural dominance of a league by one or two clubs does not cause any real benefit to the other clubs. Regardless of what created that imbalance in the frist place (large European money, historical existence etc).
I'd hazard a guess that the Old Firm actually divert more money OUT of the Scottish game in terms of transfer fees than they do re-circulate money in the form of transfer fees inside the league. Rangers have certainly been guilty of paying a lot of large transfer fees to ship players in from other leagues. Celtic likewise invariably have their biggest transfers involving overseas players. So you could argue that the Old Firm are actually leaking money out of the Scottish game, rather than re-circulating it to the benefit of lesser clubs (hence further cementing their dominance).
Scottish and Norwegian football are the models that we should aim to avoid in the EL, but there is a real danger that giving a single team c. €10m each year for Champions League involvement would do the opposite of that.
Last edited by dcfcsteve; 30/11/2007 at 1:24 PM.
Two flaws I see in your arguement :
1) I'm not convinced that the money would re-circulate within Irish football as much as you think beyond the short-term (see the example of the Old Firm above). A lot of it would leave the league - particularly in attracting the better Irish players back from clubs in England and Scotland, which s where the best players would still aspire to be. Derry City were the money-bags of Irish football in the last 80's, and signed players from all over (incl. asset-stripping the Shamrock Rovers 4-in-a-row team, coincidentally). Did that really create any noticeable financial uplift for the rest of the league ? I don't believe so.
2) I accept that the profile of the league etc would increase. But what would Drogheda being in the Champions League group stages genuinely do for the attendance at Kilkenny v Monaghan, for example, 3 days later ? Do Arsenal's antics in the Champions League create a thirst for people to go watch Wigan, Portsmouth or Barnet ? I'm not convinced they do, and I don't believe such an aspiration holds up to scrutiny. Look at the best example we've had recently in Ireland - Shels had 25,000 watching them draw with Deportivo on a Wednesday, followed by 1,500 watch them play an EL Premier game the following Saturday. Do we honestly think that that gulf in attendnaces will be bridged for league games if Shels played such Euro games more often ??
So I can't see how having one perpetually rich and high-flying club in Ireland would do anything other than create a structural imbalance in the league that would be extremely difficult to break, and which would therefore effectively kill the league as a spectacle (as in Scotland and Norway)
The reason why clubs are in Europe is to see how far they can go, to compete with other nations best teams, to improve their own standard and also for financial benefits.
I do not believe for one second that if a club made it to the CL proper that it would be bad for Irish Football either side of the border.
If anything, I think it would help our respective leagues, because it would prove that there is a decent standard of football for our people to go and watch. The progress would increase exposure for the leagues as well.
If say Linfield(who dominate football anyway) go through to the CL proper next season, yes it would give us extra money, but it would be a once in a life time amount. I do not think that once one club qualifies that, the same club would qualify most years. It doesn’t work like that and it would take an aweful lot of luck to qualify in the 1st place.
Sure you might get €10million, but will you as a club be able to attract the higher standard of player without paying extortionate wages? I doubt it.
And then if say Linfield got this sort of money, when Linfield go around the league(s) to get the best players, the clubs will bump the price of players and overprice them. e.g. Manchester United having to pay 18million for Carrick.
Theirs also another side you need to contemplate. If we had a club go into the CL proper, the amount of points that CL team would get would benefit the rest of the teams heading to Europe in the future.
Can I also say, that in the LOI especially, if say Drogheda got into the CL proper next season and they finish the season with an operating profit of €8 million euros because of the CL. Don’t you think that investers might come in for other teams, willing to put money in, in the hope to progessing the clubs in Europe and increasing the value of their investment? I’m not talking about bleeding the clubs resources, I’m talking about increasing the value of the club for the invester to get their investment to mature.
I personally cannot wait for the day, a club from this island makes it to the CL proper. But I don’t think it will be for a long time, if it does happen at all, which I hope will.
The Hallion Battalion Molests football.:D
UEFA.com
Between 2009 and 2012, some 22 teams will qualify directly for the UEFA Champions League group stage instead of 16, and the UEFA Champions League final will be played on a Saturday, under format changes agreed by the UEFA Executive Committee at its meeting in Lucerne, Switzerland, on Friday.
Group stage unchanged
There will be no changes to the main part of European club football's most prestigious competition, which will continue to feature 32 teams split into eight groups of four in the group stage, followed by the knockout phase. The eight sides that finish in third place in their groups will move into the knockout phase of the UEFA Cup – which also has an amended format.
Access list
However, the UEFA Champions League access list between 2009 and 2012 will change accordingly: 22 teams go through directly to the group stage instead of 16. The six additional clubs will be the third-placed sides from the associations ranked between 1 and 3 in the ranking list, and the champions of countries ranked from 10 to 12.
Qualifying routes
Ten teams will qualify through a double qualifying route – one is reserved for the champions of the associations ranked from 13 to 53, with the exception of Liechtenstein. Five clubs will qualify via this route. The other path is reserved for the non-champions of associations rated between 1 and 15.
__________________________________________________ _______________
Rankings:
13 Czech Republic
14 Belgium
15 Greece
16 Switzerland
17 Bulgaria
18 Norway
19 Denmark
20 Austria
21 Serbia
22 Israel
23 Sweden
24 Slovakia
25 Poland
26 Hungary
27 Croatia
28 Cyprus
29 Slovenia
30 Finland
31 Latvia
32 Bosnia-Herzegovina
33 Lithuania
34 Moldova
35 Ireland
36 Macedonia
37 Iceland
38 Georgia
39 Liechtenstein
40 Belarus
41 Estonia
42 Azerbaijan
43 Albania
44 Armenia
45 Kazakhstan
46 Northern Ireland
47 Wales
48 Faroe Islands
49 Luxembourg
50 Malta
51 Andorra
52 Montenegro
53 San Marino
_____________________
5 places on offer, if it's a random draw we could do well. If it's seeded with the top half (places 13-33) playing the bottom half we might not do so well... However if we can out preform a few of the leagues above us and be seeded in the top half things would seem better...
I think that in a few year it will be possible to come out as one of the top 5 teams...
Five years time Galway United playing CL football... I can't wait and SBB doing the commentary...
I'll try and simplify the new format as best as possible for anyone who doesn't have the patience to read through a UEFA document.
The very, very short version is that Ireland gets..
Champions - Champions League 1st Qualifying Round
Cup Winners - UEFA Cup 2nd Qualifying Round
2nd place - UEFA Cup 1st Qualifying Round
3rd place - UEFA Cup 1st Qualifying Round
The long version is....
Champions League
Champions Qualifying
Preliminary Round
- Champions of 6 countries ranked 48-53
Winners go to 1st Qualifying Round
1st Qualifying Round
- Champions of 31 countries ranked 16-47 (except Liechenstein)
- 3 winners from previous round
Winners go to 2nd Qualifying Round.
2nd Qualifying Round
- Champions of 3 countries ranked 13-15
- 17 winners from previous round
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round, Losers go to UEFA Cup 4th Qualifying Round.
3rd Qualifying Round
- 10 winners from previous round
Winners go to Champions League Group Stage, Losers go to UEFA Cup Group Stage.
Best Placed Qualifying
(there is no 1st round)
2nd Qualifying Round
- Second placed teams of 9 countries ranked 7-15
- Third place team from country ranked 6th
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round, Losers go to UEFA Cup 4th Qualifying Round.
3rd Qualifying Round
- Third placed teams of 2 countries ranked 4-5
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- 5 winners from previous round
Winners go to Champions League Group Stage, Losers go to UEFA Cup Group Stage.
Group Stage
- Reigning Champion
- Champions of 12 countries ranked 1-12
- Second placed teams of 6 countries ranked 1-6
- Third placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- 5 winners from Champions Qualifying Tournament
- 5 winners from Best Placed Qualifying Tournament
8 Groups of 4 teams: top 2 from each group go to Champions League Knock-out stage, 3rd place team goes to UEFA Cup Knock-out Stage.
Straight knock-out from then on..
UEFA Cup
Qualifying
1st Qualifying Round
- Third placed teams of 29 countries ranked 22-51 (except Liechenstein)
- Second placed teams of 16 countries ranked 35-51 (except Liechenstein)
- Cup Winners of San Marino and Andorra
- 3 "Fair Play" teams.
Winners go to 2nd Qualifying Round
2nd Qualifying Round
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Fourth placed teams of 6 countries ranked 10-15
- Third placed teams of 6 countries ranked 16-21
- Second placed teams of 16 countries ranked 19-34
- Cup Winners of 24 countries ranked 28-51
Winners go to 3rd Qualifying Round
3rd Qualifying Round
- Sixth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 4-6
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Third placed teams of 6 countries ranked 10-15
- Second placed teams of 3 countries ranked 16-18
- Cup Winners of 12 countries ranked 16-27
Winners go to 4th Qualifying Round
4th Qualifying Round
- Fifth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 1-3
- Fourth placed teams of 3 countries ranked 4-6
- Third placed teams of 3 countries ranked 7-9
- Cup Winners of 15 countries ranked 1-15
- 15 Losers from Champions League 2nd Qualifying Rounds (10 from Champions Qualifying, 5 from Best Placed Qualifying)
Winners go to Group Stage
Group Stage
- Reigning Champion
- 37 winners from 3rd Qualifying Round
- 10 losers from Champions League 3rd Qualifying Round (5 from Champions Qualifying, 5 from Best Placed Qualifying)
12 Groups of 4 teams: top 2 from each group go to Knock-out stage
Knock-out Stage
- 24 qualified from Group Stage
- 8 third placed teams from Champions League Group Stage
Does this get the record for dullest post ever on foot.ie?
No, but it might get the record for being the post people are most likely to read carefully at the start, then lose patience and scroll quickly down scanning for the word "Ireland", then get to the end of the post, and not bother going back up to look again.
Or maybe I'm the only one.
So basically we will be doing the same as we always did in the CL.
Spot on.
From the bit I did read: does the league have to make it to #30 to be seeded in the 1st qualifying round now?
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
Why are Liechenstein being singled out?
Hunky Dorys Park - could be worse, we could be going to Old Trafford every other week
That's why I listed exactly where the Irish teams enter right at the start
Assuming it's still seeded, it'd be #32 I think.Spot on.
From the bit I did read: does the league have to make it to #30 to be seeded in the 1st qualifying round now?
A point made earlier during about the Old Firm, being dominant is true except for one stage during the mid 1980's when Aberdeen and Dundee United were dominant for a five year stretch and were dubbed the ''New Firm''. Unfortunately their rise to prominence didn't last and the previous status quo was soon resumed from 1986, when Celtic beat Hearts to the title on goal difference, to date. It would be good for the game in Scotland if Hearts and Hibs were to emerge as top 4 clubs and Aberdeen and Dundee United were to return to something like their early-mid 1980's status !
They don't have a proper national league. Their best clubs play in the Swiss football pyramid. There's only a national cup competiton, the winner of which (nearly always Vaduz) gets into the UEFA.
How come they get away with not having a proper national league, and every other country HAS to have one??
I always thought that if we were to have an All-Ireland League, we would also have to have an all Ireland national team?
Let's say Lichtenstein was the equivelent of NI and the Swiss was ROI, couldn't you have an All-Ireland League (1CL spot & 2 UEFA spots), an Irish cup (1 UEFA spot) and an Ulster Cup (1UEFA spot) and 2 national teams. Everybody wins???
Back on topic though, I'm all for one team getting into the CL group stages. I don't think it will have as detremental effect as some people think it will.
1) Bohs apparantly have €10 mill and they are not dominating.
2) Its not like an Irish team will qualify every year and thus having €10 mill per year, more like €10 mill every now and again when they get lucky enough to qualify.
3) Local pride. More punters will see a rival team with some glamour and playing in the CL and will hopefully come out and support they're own team.
4) On the point of Shelbourne getting 25,000 for the deportivo game and 1500 the next was poor marketing. If a team was to make the CL group stages then tickets would have to be sold in pairs. (1CL ticket + 1 league ticket) Like the way Ireland sells international tickets.
Yep, and 34th would get our second placed team straight into the 2nd quali round of the UEFA, with our cup winners.
we are already 35th, so a decent euro run again next year could see us starting with that scenario
They get away with not having a senior League because they only have something like 9 Senior clubs all of whom play in Swiss regional leagues. FC Vaduz play in the Swiss Second Division and keep missing out on promotion. No shortage of money over there for their clubs because Liechtenstein is one of the banking centres of Europe. Lack of people is the main problem for that country and it's ability to host a League.
1) No different than Wales having a "national league", but their best teams playing in England.
2) You don't "have" to have a national league. I'm not aware of any country that has been put on the spot by UEFA/FIFA over this. Those that have acted defensively (e.g Wales ) have done so pre-emptively.
Says who ? And as if we couldn't blag an exemption due to our troubled history....
When have Bohs spent €10m....? Anyway - there's a difference between being given a gift against long-term equity (i.e stadium value) and being given €10m full-stop.
If you're telling me the only way an Irish team in the CL group stages is going to increase it's EL attendances is by effectively forcing participation, then you've already lost the arguement....
FC Vaduz can't gain entry to UEFA competitions through the swiss leagues. Even if they won the Premier Swiss league they'd not be allowed entry. Cardiff and Wrexham also play in the english league under these conditions I think.
Going on that basis we'd have teams from the North playing in the Eircom League and they couldn't get a place in europe!
As for the new format, I think it's fantastic news for our league. If we can get ourselves seeded in the QR1 game you're looking at 2 more CL games and entry into the UEFA cup when you get knocked out.
It wouldn't be country seeding that qualifies you as a seed in QR1 so just getting to 32nd alone isn't going to be good enough. Teams need to begin to up their team seeding for a place in the seeded section.
John Delaney!! GET OUT!!!
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