The distance between the grounds is irrelevant. It's their individual location that's key. At the moment 20,000ish NI fans, wearing jerseys, wrapped in NI and UJ flags singing NI songs walking up Tates avenue will feel very comfortable in their surrounds. Now imagine them walking from the two tiny train stations/halts up Kennedy way, Finaghy Rd North and the Andy town road. They will feel as uncomfortable as the people who live there watching them pass by. The fans certainly wont be drinking in the local bars. I have several friends who never miss a NI international and they've told me they won't be going to casement even in the euros.Originally Posted by brendy_éire
I'm in no doubt casement will Start but whether it's on time is another story.
Seems Pats have lodged a complaint with the FAI over the 75 ticket away allocation in the Brandywell so Derry have had to pause any being put on general sale this weekend. Dan McDonnell was saying on LOI Central this week that the FAI weren't happy at all about the situation, though you'd wonder why they didn't seem to make any deal of the Drogheda game in that case.
Update on this:
According to the stories doing the rounds, the FAI didn't want a terrace beside the MF stand to be used for away fans, hence Drogheda's small seated allocation. Maybe there wasn't time for Drogheda to do much, or maybe they didn't think they'd need more than 75?
Presumably Pat's, and whoever else, gave off about it, so the FAI have now said it's ok to use a terrace, and to work with the away clubs to sort out a decent away allocation for each match.
The seats in the Southend Stand Block M, plus the terrace, should be around the 300 mark.
Glad that that's sorted, as 75 seats was poor. 300 will suffice for most teams, and the allocation will more than double come July.
One point to note about the terrace, the club specifically advertises them as adult tickets. The slope isn't too great, and if you have a child, you'll need to be at the very front in order for them to have a decent view.
Both terrace are due to be swallowed up by the MF stand phase 2.
Tbh I was being a bit flippant. If the GAA want this fudning let there be strings attached that would stick in their craw eg Having to allow muli sport use if required without their cntral council/congress have a veto. Simply conditions attached that softens the free hit. Another way would be a low interest, very long term repayment, a rent, long term lease, small % of sellout attendances or non sporting money making events etc. Just so its not money for almost nothing ie a white elephant that is only needed once a year for an Ulster Final.
Jarlath Burns has made some positive noises on letting other sports use facilities. I'm not quite sure how that would work, but imagine they have to get something through congress.
But realistically who else is going to use it semi-regularly for anything approaching capacity? Can't see Ulster or NI needing it. IRFU? They don't stage games anywhere else these days. Maybe put in for pro12 or whatever it's called final? So that leaves Ulster final and occasional concert.
Something that would tickle me more than the funding would be Northern Ireland playing in a euro finals in Belfast and a majority/large minority of their fans boycotting the games because they don't feel safe. So the same people who've been playing down other's concerns over attending windsor park because of actions of fans, chants or just it's location
That's assuming NI qualify - hardly a given. And if they don't, what crowds do you expect for those games which are played? Remember, Eng/Sco/Wal/ROI will be playing in their home stadia - Romania vs Norway anyone?
Exactly. Anyone who imagines that the IFA would play post-Euro NI games at Casement should stay away from the drugs.
I don't know what world you live in, but no harm, it's a different one from this NI fan of over half a century.
There is a whole lot of misunderstanding, sometimes mischief (not you ANM) about the history of The Maze Stadium.
Basically HMG owned a 360 acre site which they no longer needed for a prison (obv), and from a distance, imagined that it had development value (it doesn't, as evidenced by the fact that it is, I think, only used by the farmers for their annual 4 day show, they having outgrown their former Balmoral site). Westminster decided that a shared stadium would be a centrepiece for all the investment that the site must surely attract. This would have the added bonus of "bringing communities together etc", though how rugby fans trekking out there on a Friday evening, football fans on a Saturday and GAA fans on a Sunday for 30(?) days a year would achieve that was never properly explained.
Anyhow, the IFA was in favour of the scheme, but only because WP was approaching the very end of its stay-of-execution from FIFA/UEFA, so that the only alternative would have been to play NI games outside NI, since the IFA didn't have the money to rebuild WP.
Rugby didn't really care, since Ravenhill was then adequate for their needs i.e. they might use the Maze for the odd game (1 or 2 a season?), but if not, Lansdowne could easily substitute.
While the GAA, who disliked the "National Stadium" moniker, cared even less, since they had no need for it. But if it was going to be built, at no expense to themselves, then they insisted it should be 48k capacity (conveniently half way between Clones and Croke).
Leave aside the totally inadequate location - there's a reason the site was originally that of a military airfield, then a prison i.e. in the middle of nowhere. Leave aside that it has zero public transport and only one road in-and-out. Leave aside that the proposed design was utterly unsuitable for football and rugby, due to the massive size of a GAA field. Leave aside that GAA insisted on some standing, but Football insternationals have to be all-seater. Leave aside that it was far from convenient for Derry/Donegal/Monaghan GAA fans, whose tickets would attract VAT.
In the end, it was binned because the accountants in the Finance Dept at Stormont realised that there was no way on earth that it would ever pay its way as originally proposed by its backers - and they were 100% correct. Hence the decision to give the stadium money to the 3 codes to use as they saw fit.
Your suggestion for the GAA misses the point. This was to be government money for a (shared) National Stadium. I have already alluded to the GAA's unease with such a description, but either way, the money was reallocated towards a "National" stadium for each of the three codes. As I say, Rugby was happy enough for this for Ravenhill. However the IFA, who were to be allocated equal funding to the GAA (£62m each), declared with typical short-sightedness that they only needed £26m for their National Stadium, so requested that the £36m remaining be used for "Regional" stadia. Which was agreed by Stormont/HMG, but only to be allocated after the 3 main stadia were completed.
Which left the GAA. Of course, if the Maze was such a good site, they might have built a stadium there - yeah, right. I guess they might have spent £36m on updating 5 NI county grounds, but their Regional needs there weren't so pressing as Football's, while £26m, even with another £15m of their own, would never have rebuily Casement, at least in sufficient manner to satisfy their vanity. So instead they went "full White Elephant" and, well, you've seen the rest.
Someone once defined the Camel as "A Racehorse designed by a Committee".
That is, each Committee member insisted on his/her own requirement beiong included in the final design. Which in this present respect and for the reasons of location, design and capacity etc which I outlined above, is exactly why no single stadium could properly satisfy all the individual needs of the 3 codes involved without necessitating multiple compromises that would mean no-one was satisfied.
As Groucho Marx (I think) once observed: "Whenever people say it's not the money, it's the principle, trust me, it's the money!"
"Two years"?
You are to be congratulated for your optimism, though I fear you are to be disappointed.
Fair play, there is a lot of sense in your funding proposals etc, but I repeat that outwith Euro28 games, the IFA has absolutely NO interest in ever playing at Casement (and then only should we qualify, which is debateable). Nor imo should they, with my objections being entirely sporting, not political.
P.S. As regards, loans/repayment etc, this funding is designated solely for sporting purposes. Yet the GAA's prospectus envisages it being used for (an admittedly small) number of concerts a year. Imo a government-subsidised venue should not be allowed to compete with other privately, or Council, owned venues. Therefore at a very minimum, any income derived from non-sporting activity should be repaid to the government until the overspend beyond £62m is recouped. Which of course it could never be, unless maybe you had Taylor Swift performing there naked every night for a year.
But as I said earlier, it's the Principle, not the Money which counts.
That would be writing a cheque which will never be cashed. For as you say yourself, Football and Rugby have neither need nor interest in paying rent to use a venue which is unsuitable in so many ways, especially when they already have (just about) suitable venues which they own themselves.
I'm sorry ANM, but while they may be a small minority, a number of people from the Nationalist community already do attend NI internationals at Windsor - I know, because I know some of them myself, though it's not something they tend to trumpet widely in their own community. While a survey some years back put the figure at (I think) 8%.
As for NI fans at Casement, I actually think the great majority of the GAWA would go there should we qualify, for the 3 or 4 NI games. I cannot see many (any?) going for games not involving NI, especially when these will all also be live on TV.
I think *shudders* we're in agreement on casement.
But Burns seems quite genuine on the changes that will have an impact across the island, just not likely for casement.
My point about fans was more about the concerns, reasonable or not, being familiar and being waved away easily before by some of these same people.
I tend to agree about attendance. I don't think any I know would refuse to go watch their team, but in the media we hear the squeaky wheels. And are the official nisc not among them? They, or some group like them, were one of the main detractors of the maze. Which for all it's faults would have served everyone better.
I think *shudders* we're in agreement on casement.
I daresay he is genuine, and he is to be commended for that. But while it is clear that Casement can have benefits for GAA throughout the island, it is equally clear that Burns has zero understanding of what NI football needs or wants (Clue: it's not Casement).
True.
But in the end, we should be able to trust the authorities - Stormont, GAA, IFA, Westminster, Dail etc - to decide what is best for all, without being distracted by the usual bucket-mouths in the media etc. And from everything I've seen so far, they are at best deluded in some of their thinking, and at worst distracted by political considerations over sporting ones. Which in any circumstances would be bad enough, but when you're talking about £150m+ of public money for what will surely be a chronically underused sports stadium, and at a time when hospitals, schools and roads etc are (literally) falling apart, that is a disgrace.
The AONISC did NOT say Casement should not be rebuilt - of itself, they have no interest in it. But aside from the resentment that £36m of football's funding has been withheld, and halved(?) in value due to the GAA's own incompetence, greed and vanity, their main point is this.
The whole "justification" for the GAA getting hugely more than they deserve for Casement is that it can host 4 or 5 Euro28 games - games which might not even involve NI. Yet this is a football tournament, a sport for which the GAA has held various degrees of disdain down the years.
Moreover, a key selling point in the two Governments supporting the 5 x FA's bidding for the tournament was that it would provide a legacy for the game throughout these islands. What will be the legacy for football in NI after the tournament is over? A grossly over-expensive 34k stadium, with an unsuitable design for football, possibly with some of the seats replaced by standing (i.e. not permitted for international football), in a location which is "sub-optimal" (putting it politely) and which will simply never be used for football after the circus has left town.
And if you think about it, this is not just zero legacy for football, but it's actually minus legacy, since this White Elephant will have swallowed up the bulk of NI's sports funding, including football's, for the next decade or more.
And that, if anyone bothered actually to read the AONISC's statement, is why the fans are opposed to this present, ruinously expensive farce.
I don't think casement redevelopment has any wider benefit across the island. But removing restrictions on shared facilities would.
I daresay he is genuine, and he is to be commended for that. But while it is clear that Casement can have benefits for GAA throughout the island, it is equally clear that Burns has zero understanding of what NI football needs or wants (Clue: it's not Casement).
I mean everything is underfunded, but this is emotive cliche bs and deserves the standard response - this is different funding. Unless you're against capital spending on sports.
I don't think anyone is claiming they are.
Open to correction but they are against any games, NI or other Euro28 being held at casement. It's also fair to say they opposed the plans for the maze. Plans which with hindsight should be starting to look like a good idea round about now.
And last I heard that 36M has become 100M+ in expected costs.
It's almost as if divying up the money on a psuedo sectarian basis might have been a bad idea. Bit late now given it's casement or nothing for IFA hosting of euro28.
The problem is the noise sound an awful lot like themums get everything. Have they offered an alternative that would allow games to be held in NI? That is not massively overpriced? Or could be seen to favour one side of a psuedo sectarian divide?
I wouldn't be adverse to no euro games, and more modest funding for casement to bring it up to 20K. If everyone can get on board with the need for a shared venue of 40K+
It's not just IFA use though. It could be these great preseason games, Celtic v Man Utd, a future all island side rotate between Landsdowne and Casement leaving Windsor to Linfield and domestic league use. Im not serious on the latter part...an all island team should be based in the capital ie DublinFair play, there is a lot of sense in your funding proposals etc, but I repeat that outwith Euro28 games, the IFA has absolutely NO interest in ever playing at Casement (and then only should we qualify, which is debateable). Nor imo should they, with my objections being entirely sporting, not political.
P.S. As regards, loans/repayment etc, this funding is designated solely for sporting purposes. Yet the GAA's prospectus envisages it being used for (an admittedly small) number of concerts a year. Imo a government-subsidised venue should not be allowed to compete with other privately, or Council, owned venues. Therefore at a very minimum, any income derived from non-sporting activity should be repaid to the government until the overspend beyond £62m is recouped. Which of course it could never be, unless maybe you had Taylor Swift performing there naked every night for a year.
But as I said earlier, it's the Principle, not the Money which counts.
There should be, at minimum, a clause that GAA cannot refuse use of Casement whether ever requested or not if public funds are used!
Removing restrictions on GAA facilities would be a good thing in itself. And I am sure that such a move could bring benefits for lots of people throughout Ireland. But trust me, Casement offers precisely nothing to Football in NI, other than the option of NI playing 3 or 4 games in NI at Euro28 - and that's only if we qualify.
Thereafter I guarantee you Football will never want or need to use that facility, for reasons that are entirely sound, and absolutely nothing to do with politics or "themmuns" etc.
Excuse me, but the "difference" is not Sports funding vs non-Sports funding. It is the difference between £62m of Sports (specifically GAA) funding and £150m(?) of Sports funding, necessitated by the GAA's own monumental screw-ups, and the "need" to host 4 or 5 Euro games in NI in a stadium which after 2028 will only ever be filled once a year for sport, plus maybe a couple of Garth Brooks concerts etc. And that is a difference which cannot in all conscience be justified.
As for being "against capital spending for sports", I'm sorry, but as a sports fanatic (not just football), how could I ever be opposed to that, especially in a place like NI, where sport has been chronically underfunded for years?
Quite simply, of course NI deserves greater sports funding, and not just Football, nor excluding GAA. But that funding has to bear some relation to justifiable need, rather than an outrageously expensive White Elephant like Casement, especially when after it is built, then that will effectively have used up the entire NI sports budget for years to come. For as sure as eggs are eggs, the minute the next Sports Minister applies for his/her share of the Stormont budget, then he/she will be told: "You've already received all your Christmas and Birthday presents for the next ten years, so go to the back of the queue again."
You do indeed need "correction".
For one thing, the AONISC did not raise any objection to public money being allocated to the GAA, nor that it be spent by them on Casement, if that is what they want.
Rather they pointed out that the reason given for massively increasing public spending on Casement is that it will enable NI to host a Euro's Group. And the rationale behind public spending on a football tournament like the Euros is that it will create a "legacy" for the game i.e. Football afterwards. Now my own view is that legacy argument is usually greatly overstated - it's more like politicians wanting to be "seen" to be providing us with nice, shiny things.
Anyhow, it is undeniable that spending all this (football) money on Casement will provide absolutely ZERO legacy for football, since I guarantee that after the tournament NI will never, ever want or need to play another game at Casement. In fact if we don't qualify, then NI won't ever play any games at Casement full stop! Or how many times must I repeat that Casement is entirely unsuitable, unneeded and unwanted by Football, for a host of entirely valid reasons?
So what else might this massive increase in spending do to create a (genuine) legacy for football in NI? It seems that for practical reasons, Windsor cannot be expanded to 30k capacity. Fair enough, so in that case I would suggest that the Euro28 funding allocation for NI be spent instead on a desperately-needed NI National Football Training Centre, with accommodation included. That way it could also be used as a centre to host some of the teams who've qualified for the Finals and who are playing their games in the AVIVA - 2 hours away by road/train. Or even teams playing their games eg in Liverpool or Glasgow - a 35 or 40 minute flight from a choice of 2 Belfast airports.
Let's get this straight. The only people who were in favour of The Maze Stadium were (a ) some politicians in Westminster and Civil Servants in Whitehall, with their ludicrous notion of "bringing communities together at a shared stadium etc"; (b ) the IFA, who with WP facing an imminent ban by UEFA/FIFA, were desperate for anything which would prevent NI having to play "home" games outside NI; and (c ) the DUP's Edwin Poots. And you can probably guess in which MLA's constituency The Maze sits!
I repeat, the GAA were completely apathetic towards the whole scheme - and opposed to the "National" in the name - merely saying that if the Brits were going to spend all this money it, then they (GAA) might use it for an occasional game, and then only after insisting it be 48k capacity.
While Rugby didn't give a stuff either way, which is why if they never actively opposed it, neither did they ever commit to play any games at it either!
You need to get to Specsavers, my friend.
It was an ill-thought out, economically bonkers idea at the time and just because Casement is another bad idea doesn't make it any better now. I mean, absolutely no-one of note complained when The Maze was binned, in fact our local politicians (Poots excepted) were secretly delighted when that happened, since it saved them the embarrassment of arguing for years over issues like the Prison Museum which was also meant to go on the site etc.
While the three sports were delighted, since the reallocated funding meant they were able to breed their own preferred racehorse, rather than having to accept a particularly ugly-looking camel which couldn't even run, never mind race.
Which £36m do you mean? That figure was earmarked for Football for Sub-Regional stadia after WP was rebuilt (for £26m).
While £62m was due to the GAA, along with their own £15m to make £77m (obv). Now it is being said that Casement might cost £150m or more, meaning that even with Leo's €50m/£43m, HMG is going to have to come up with a minimum extra £30m, possibly much more.
In which case, and on the basis that both Football and GAA were originally due to receive equal funding, then Football should also receive an equal sum to whatever is bunged by HMG to Casement. Now from a selfish pov, I'd love that, but as a taxpayer, could anyone really justify GAA and Football receiving maybe £200m or more for stadia, one of which will be at 34k capacity maybe once a year, with the others being small Irish League grounds attracting average crowds of c.1-5k?
Madness.
But why does NI have to host 4 or 5 Euro games, esp if the NI team isn't even playing in them? Seriously, Finland v Romania or Belgium v Azerbaijan in West Belfast - who gives a stuff?
Let GAA do whatever they like with the money they're due and give the IFA the same amount to do whatever it likes to benefit the game for the long term throughout NI, eg more qualified coaches, better grassroots facilities, more money for women/girls and a National Training Centre.
We don't need NI to host games, at least not at the costs being talked about. When NI men qualified for Euro2016, thousands of fans were happy to travel to France, and when NI Women qualified for Euro23, we had loads who went over to Southampton too. Meaning Dublin, Glasgow, Liverpool or Cardiff etc would be the same brilliant crack!
What a shame. You started out so well before losing the run of yourself with your "shared venue of 40k+".
That turkey was proposed nearly 20 years ago, it failed to fly then, it isn't going to fly now. (And before anyone interjects, my own objections are nothing to do with politics, religion or anything of the sort, but solely to do with what Football wants, needs and deserves. Thereafter, the GAA may do what they like with their proper share - and Good luck to them)
Hang on, the proposed rationale behind spending all this money on Casement is that it would benefit NI/IFA football to host the Euro's (a football tournament, in case you've forgotten).
What possible benefit could NI football derive from a game such as you propose, staged in Casement, with whatever proceeds going to the GAA? And that's aside from the fact that Man U are as likely to abandon their customary pre-season tours to USA/Far East/the Gulf etc for a friendly with Celtic in Belfast as I am to walk on the moon. And beyond that, who else is likely to draw a crowd to a meaningless PSF? Rangers?
Er, the Football Capital of Ireland is, and always has been, Belfast - "1880: Original and (George) Best"
Something which you might do well to remember if/when the FAI finally goes bust and has to come crawling back in supplication to rejoin the IFA. Which we may or may not accept.
Once again, what other sport is ever going to request it? Seriously.
Though you may be onto something with that last bit. Namely, seeing that this money is coming out of NI's sports budget, any revenue derived from non-sporting activities (eg concerts) should go back to the two governments, pro rata, to pay back their investments.
Does anyone who's in the know at Pat's have any idea what's envisaged for upgrading Richmond? I know it was mentioned that the council were looking to purchase numbers 119 - 133 on Emmet Road and had already made some progress on that front. It's not immediately obvious (to me anyway) what they plan on doing, even roughly.
I presumed an enlarged stand could be built up the hill to near street level
It's just that if 119 - 133 is the correct area of houses they're buying up then it only covers part of the pitch. They could still build that section of the stand taller and add a clubhouse type area but I'd be surprised if that's how they want to go. Also you'd think they'd be looking at adding access points to the ground. The previous idea with St Michael's estate was quite innovative so I wonder if there's some innovation in whatever the plan is.
So you're against a major championship having any games played in norn irn*. Because of the extra hundred odd million it will cost the public purse, money that could be spent onhospitals/public servicesother sports projects, just not all on this one**. Except if they doubled the money coming from the public purse to give an equal amount to insert organisation of choice***. But hang on actually that's a mad idea ted.
Oh and, you'd very much like windsor to be expanded by 10k. However thats not feasible, but the idea of a bigger stadium (not casement) that would be shared so could be used when needed is beyond the pail. (Presumably because it would save the public purse to replicate infrastructure)
Here's a source for 36M**** increasing to 100M+. Take it with a road service gritter load of salt*****, but it seems to be mentioned as fait accompli.
https://www.derryjournal.com/sport/f...-stand-4528965
Now whether that's all additional costs or matching new casement funding I don't know.
* including any real or imagined benefit to the economy, a wee lift for tourism and, the struggling, hospitality sectors
** so you're not against this project, just the cost and any use of of it by the ifa
*** oh, and if it gets one penny more that than allocated to ifa backed projects
**** as to confusion on what 36M i was talking about, yes it was the exact same one you were talking about in the multi quoted text immediately preceding where I mentioned 36M in my previous post
***** due to budgetary constraints it's mostly gravel
Look as far I can tell this is happening. Do I think it's a good idea? No, but for 'reasons' it is going to happen.
The maze proposal had many faults, and arrived stillborn beacause of political baggage. Despite that it was in principal a good idea which deserved proper discussion and not outright 'never'. You yourself lament the lack of a 30K stadium. Why not keep windsor, and save the public purse by building a shared facility (anywhere viable), am sure we can do something mad to expand/reduce capacity/pitch dimensions if we put our minds to it.
The gaa for all their stuborness and seeming stupidity on the matter are the only ones with the ones with the fecking gumption to say we need a bigger stadium, holding firm after the pot was split. At 30k a gaa stadium isn't going to be of interest to rugby or football, but at 40k they might want it for big games, could maybe put it forward for contentiental competitions, hell maybe it could even host a big gaa game that's not the ulster final.
And if we wanted sporting legacy then the money should never have been divied up the way it was in the first place. There should have been some feckin ambition like (eventually) we want to host the commonwealth games - not belfast the whole of ni. Could have had one or two sport regional centres and hubs/campuses. Move other course out have uuj/uuc as sports institue, whisper it... a 'national' indoor arena in the second city. I'm sure such a venture could have neciesitated for two or three stadiums of differing sizes to be built. But that would required co-operation, thinking and ambition.
I'll be over here waiting on these pigs to grow wings.
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