Granny rule is mother of dependency? Locker Room from the Times today

[NeilMcD]

Granny rule is mother of dependency
Tom Humphries



LockerRoom: Did you feel a little uncomfortable when Steve Staunton announced he was getting out his magnifying glass and deerstalker and heading off to explore the possibilities of the Granny Rule?

It's not that the Granny Rule hasn't been good to us. It is a munificent little loophole of a rule, through which we have dragged ashore respectable talents and convinced ourselves we were taking back a little of what we had lost in the diaspora.

Stan made the point that his kids are English-born and if somebody was to tell him they couldn't play for Ireland he'd be mad as hell. I'm English-born myself and if somebody was to tell me I couldn't play for Ireland I would say fair enough, I'm old and fat - but I see Stan's point.

I don't know though if Stan's argument would be so strong if he were talking about his grandchildren. The emotional twang isn't so great when you think of a kid with one Irish grandparent but otherwise an impeccable sense of Englishness or Scottishness or whatever.

Certainly it's nice when you get a young fella with an English accent who challenges you to say he's any less Irish than you are, but are those the type of recruits we're lining up? Kevin Kilbane, for instance, grew up with the Pope, JFK and the Sacred Heart looking down from the wall in the parlour. His mother's plat du jour every jour was potatoes and cabbage. I don't have the heart to tell Kevin Kilbane he shouldn't be playing for Ireland. Nor Gary Breen, with whom it is possible to sit and reminisce about All-Ireland finals of the 1980s which he saw and loved.

Nor should we be telling them such a thing. We should, however, be examining our needs and our priorities. We are into a different phase of our development as a footballing nation now.

The great glut of successful Oirish recruits came to us before the Celtic Tiger did. Aldridge, Houghton, Townsend, Cas and the boys. The success of the side they played in was in sync with a growing national self-confidence. Now we are out the other side of that process. Economically and footballwise we're a little more grown-up.

The legacy of the Charlton era was a boom to the game here. How the FAI have managed that boom is hardly open to debate. Soccer at underage level is well run and well organised.

It's true the FAI - from which virtually no blazer has ever evacuated without benefit of a golden parachute - have turfed out Brian Kerr, who was the one man with a long-term vision for Ireland's soccer development.

Kerr's legacy, though, has been the implementation of a blueprint for harnessing that post-Charlton boom.

In soccer terms we are like a young economy coming out of an era of protectionism. The Granny Rule served us well in the growth stages. It protected us from all ignominy and got us to a few championships. It's a tender area to start poking about in but surely we should start imposing limits on ourselves now in terms of where we trawl and how deeply we fish.

David Kitson of Reading was quoted in the Evening Herald during the week speaking a language many footballers would not understand: selflessness.

"I wouldn't do it," he said of cashing in his granny's birth cert for a green jersey. "It's got nothing to do with Ireland or the Irish people, and I am certainly not naive enough to think I am good enough. It's just that I don't believe in the grandparent rule and it's something I don't like about international football.

"We have a terrific young talent here at Reading, called Shane Long, who has just played in two FA Cup ties against West Brom. I don't want to be the player standing in the way of him or Kevin Doyle playing for their country."

Begob and bejapers, we nearly dropped the turnips when we read that.

So is the new regime to go fishing for those guys who'll tell us they "love the Irish set-up" when we know their agents love what an international profile does for their earning power? The guys for whom England (or whoever) never came knocking?

If we don't care so long as they can help us be successful, then what value do we put on the success. What about pride and identity?

There's no doubt if we're smart enough and cunning enough we can stroke it so we have a whole team of Granny Rule geniuses. The Observer runs a little feature every week under the title (lifted from elsewhere) The Boy's A Bit Special.

Yesterday the featured player was 17-year-old Owen Garvan from Drumcondra, who is featuring in midfield with Ipswich these days. By all accounts he's a fine prospect. And he came through the system of Irish soccer. Will he be kept out in a few years by a processed Paddy who made a smart career move? For every wishy-washy Irishman, we find there's a vanished chance of international football gone for somebody who grew up in the game here.

There's something visceral about nationhood. The national team should reflect some of that. Let's pretend the young assistant manager at Walsall had 102 caps for Trinidad and Tobago and was known for his passion and knowledge of the game, etc. Would he have been threatened with the Irish job? No.

There is a pleasant reassurance to be had from Stan's Dundalk accent. When he says we're all in this together, you know he means emotionally as well as professionally. He talks about passion, as an Irishman.

The flip side of the argument is obvious, of course. Tony Cascarino in full flight was one of the great sights of the last couple of decades of Irish international football. Tony had no eligibility really but he gave it his all and it never seemed to matter. Surely, though, the days of needing a Big Cas are over. David Kitson's words were a reminder we have reared a generation of players specifically to succeed Cas and the boys.

Is it the case that David Kitson has a hard view on this but the FAI have no policy whatever on the matter, no sense of duty to those who came through the system?

Why not whittle down the grandparent rule to a parentage rule? If a kid has played for England already why not leave it at that? You might say it's a shame to tell a 15-year-old that if he plays for England that's it - he won't play for Ireland. But why not? Let him discuss it with club and family and then tick a notional box choosing his preferred international eligibility. Indeed the whole business would be cleaner if when a player came to signing professional forms he was required to state his eligibility and preference.

It's not supposed to work on the basis that a professional will wait and see what offers come along before settling for Ireland. We're better than that, surely? These lukewarm , take-it-or-leave-it merchants should be left on the shelf. If we have no top-class strikers, well then we have no top-class strikers. That's what makes international soccer so interesting.

We're all post-tiger now and it's a harder, shinier Ireland we all live in. Greed is good and success is imperative. We have a notion of ourselves which seems baffling to those of us who grew up in that Ireland which was crippled by its own inferiority complex. Remember when it made us happy just to go to the odd tournament and to be well liked?

The whole Croke Park thing has ramifications which were hardly foreseen. The GPA's plaintive whine on behalf of the oppressed footballers and hurlers of the nation is but the start of it. The very concept of Irishness is suddenly on the agenda again.

Perhaps Croke Park will become a modern version of Norman Tebbit's infamous cricket test. What does Croke Park mean to those who would wear the green jersey? I don't think there is a person who lives in this country be they of Leitrim or Lithuanian stock who doesn't have some feeling about Croke Park in their hearts. Those feelings may range from pure hatred of the GAA to curiosity, from polite indifference to bafflement about its place in Irish life, but there is something there, some part that recognises the place the stadium occupies within our culture.

If your sense of nationhood is so vague that you can't recognise or pronounce the name of the place where Ireland will soon play, then perhaps you should be looking at the birth cert of your other granny. There's a queue behind you

[Stuttgart88]

Hard to argue with the general sentiment but the Croke Park reference is daft.

And another pop at the FAI over Kerr. I laways look forward to TH's articles but I think his objectivity is too often tainted by his closeness to Kerr and his affection for GAA.

I think Stan / FAI should never have brought up the hornet's nest of the granny rule so publicly & so early. I don't know who it was that mentioned Nolan publicly, but it should have been well known he's not eligible. Embarrassing gaffe.

But I still think by all means include those 2G & 3G with a genuine interest, genuine eligibility & something to offer.

[as_i_say]

its so hard to find the balance. i mean look at aiden mcgeady-he is a granny grabber but declares himself irish at the age of 18-you cant argue with that-theres a reason why a person does that, it must mean something.

Do we point the finger at Morrisson, Holland, Macken etc and say you should never have played for us? How do you know for sure what they really feel? Urgh.

[NeilMcD]

Yeah I said this before I think its a very complex issue and I don't agree with Humphries that we should have a hard and fast rule on this. I agree with Kerr's view on it which is if the player fits into the 2 criteria that he set out which is they are good enough and have the passion to play for Ireland then they are considered. Thats good enough for me to be honest. And at the same time making sure the structures are in place to produce home grown talent.

[eirebhoy]

And another pop at the FAI over Kerr. I laways look forward to TH's articles but I think his objectivity is too often tainted by his closeness to Kerr and his affection for GAA.

Was Humphries close to Kerr or was he just a Kerr supporter?

I also think Kerr's way was best. If a player is eligible and needs no time to declare for us then he can play for us. Stan is just looking for those that are eligible which is wrong.

[lopez]

Yeah I said this before I think its a very complex issue and I don't agree with Humphries that we should have a hard and fast rule on this.

Exactly. The rule that is set is citizenship and those entitled to it are entitled to play for Ireland. Those that are ineligible (by already playing for another country) or previously turning down approaches, are those that I'd accept being left out.

[Stuttgart88]

Was Humphries close to Kerr or was he just a Kerr supporter?

I also think Kerr's way was best. If a player is eligible and needs no time to declare for us then he can play for us. Stan is just looking for those that are eligible which is wrong.

Just a Kerr supporter I think.

I think Kerr's approach to the granny rule has been misrepresented. He did after all give Jon Macken his cap. He capped McGeady in the Unity Cup just to finally tie him down. Kerr often omitted players from squads who could reasonably expected to have been given a look. Steve Reid, Dunne, Delap, Harte, McGeady are examples. Ronnie O'Brien to a much lesser extent. It took him ages to give Paddy Kenny a cap. On the assumption that Lawrence has been eligible for a while I've no doubt Kerr knew this. I'm sure he just felt he wasn't good enough. Regarding Nolan, Kerr had seemingly sought him out prior to his amnesty expiring and was told he's not interested.

However, by never commenting on players' omissions he fuelled speculation. In the case of some of the above there were rumours of fall-outs & stand offs. In Lawrence's case it was speculation that he hadn't been considered becuase he's 2G or 3G. This was Kerr's mistake. I actually don't think he was any more pro or anti the granny rule than any other Irish manager but he left his position open to misinterpretation. Not least by Staunton it seems.

[Snoop Drog]

The only 'test' , in my opinion, should be citizenship.

Is this not the case? In Cascarinos book there is a story about a rule change and he had to get a passport (which eventually just 'appeared').

I was under the impression that you had to be an Irish citizen now to play for Ireland.

[davey]

I don't agree with Humphries that there needs to a kind of loyalty test or that you need one of your parents to be born in the country in order to be able to represent Ireland. The only 'test' , in my opinion, should be citizenship.

However, I am 100% against attempting to convince foreign citizens who happen to have a grandparent born in Ireland to acquire Irish citizenship so that they can play for Ireland. If I were the manager and a player that I thought was good enough was 2G or 3G, my only question to them would be 'do you have an Irish passport?'. If they said no, then I would make no attempt to convince them to acquire one and I would not consider them again unless they subsequently contacted me to say that they had an Irish passport. Once, however, a player has acquired citizenship, then a manager has no choice and must select on footballing merit only, even if like Morrisson or Holland they have virtually no connection with Ireland at all. To do otherwise would be a form of discrimination and since football is a profession, the manager could even end up in court if it was clear he was selecting on grounds other than ability to do the job.

So if I were the manager, I would consider the likes of Holland because he has now acquired an Irish passport, although I wish he hadn't and I don't consider him to actually be Irish in any meaningful way other than technically since he had never even set foot in the country before he began to 'represent' us, whereas I do consider people like Breen or Kilbane to be Irish.

I find it depressing that Staunton is now going around to see if he can convince other British players to take the place of Irish players in the team.

Best post I've read on this now tiresome debate and one that reflects my views as a 2g Ireland fan.

[Dodge]

yeah spot on

[eirebhoy]

N.Ireland have strict rules regarding this subject:

IFA chiefs have told Sanchez he can only select players who have a history with Northern Ireland.

Sanchez adds: "I must stick by the British agreement which says that you shouldn't approach a player unless he has family ties with that particular country.

"It's frustrating but my job is to manage the Northern Ireland international team and theirs is to make policy.

"I must continue to work with the players I have and I'm very happy to do that.

http://www.sundaylife.co.uk/sport/st...p?story=676671

[Dodge]

The ex Pats keeper Trevor Wood played for NI. He had absoluteky no ties to them. He was born in Jersey

[Plastic Paddy]

Same for Maik Taylor, born in Germany to a British Forces family. Jeff Whitley too has no ties to the North despite earning a bunch of caps for them. I even remember not so long ago that Sanchez was after David Johnson of Nottingham Forest to declare for the North on the grounds that he was a naturalised British subject who could have declared for any of the four home associations.

I take it your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you posted that, eirebhoy.

PP

[as_i_say]

i said that about Maik Taylor here before and someone said his father was from Belfast-dunno whether its true-i always thought he was one of the norths "british subjects" alright.

Now thats a real mercinary (if its true about whitely and taylor)-correct me if im wrong but doesnt this also mean that any welshman, scot or ingerlander could play for the north by virtue of a british passport and never have set foot on this island or having any blood ties to the north?

[lopez]

I don't agree with Humphries that there needs to a kind of loyalty test or that you need one of your parents to be born in the country in order to be able to represent Ireland. The only 'test' , in my opinion, should be citizenship...

May I also add my view that this was an excellent post. Agreed with virtually all of it.

...correct me if im wrong but doesnt this also mean that any welshman, scot or ingerlander could play for the north by virtue of a british passport and never have set foot on this island or having any blood ties to the north?

I think that's what eirebhoy means by strict rules. They could pick anyone British. Don't think FIFA would look on it too kindly, so they just stick to picking naturalised Britons born abroad.

[eirebhoy]

I take it your tongue was firmly in your cheek when you posted that, eirebhoy.

No, I just posted a link from the Sunday Life. "I must stick by the British agreement which says that you shouldn't approach a player unless he has family ties with that particular country."

tbh, they've the same rules as us except it doesn't seem they will accept a player who resided in N.Ireland for a certain amount of time. I read it wrong.

[Hither green]

correct me if im wrong but doesnt this also mean that any welshman, scot or ingerlander could play for the north by virtue of a british passport and never have set foot on this island or having any blood ties to the north?

Wasn't there some championship player a couple of years ago who was born and bred in the Caribbean but because of some colonial thing had a British passport and was therefore eligible to play for any of the United Kingdom teams. I think he was trying to play for Wales but in the end one of his grandparents was born in england and he could only play for england.

You might say it's a shame to tell a 15-year-old that if he plays for England that's it - he won't play for Ireland. But why not? Let him discuss it with club and family and then tick a notional box choosing his preferred international eligibility. Indeed the whole business would be cleaner if when a player came to signing professional forms he was required to state his eligibility and preference.

Great article and I agree with the above suggestion. It's probably a bit harsh to discount schoolboy level as you'd expect identity might change at a young age but in terms of U18s, U21s...

[Stuttgart88]

Wasn't there some championship player a couple of years ago who was born and bred in the Caribbean but because of some colonial thing had a British passport and was therefore eligible to play for any of the United Kingdom teams. I think he was trying to play for Wales but in the end one of his grandparents was born in england and he could only play for england.

David Johnson I think. He was referred to elsewhere on this board v. recently. must have been on another thread.

[shakermaker1982]

Good God we wouldn't have wanted David Johnson. As a regular at the City Ground imagine a midget who can't pass or shoot (yet he's one of the top wage earners outside the Premiership). He had one good season at Ipswich, broke his leg and has never recovered.

[Hither green]

How is it more valid for a player to play for england when his parents possibly moved to England 15-20 years ago from Jamaica or Canada or wherever, i.e. having NO English blood but being an English citizen, than it is for a player who's grandparents or parent(s) emigrated to england within the last 50 years but who have 100's even thousand of years of Irish blood. He may even have both parents Irish i.e. 100% Irish blood. No breaking of the rules and to say they don't have as much right to play for Ireland is just wrong.

I entirely agree with you there. There are probably quite a few 2nd gen players from old colonies who feel very little affinity towards england but play for them because they consider it an honour to be selected. I wonder if Morrison had chosen england whether he'd have been seen as a mercenary then? I know he was born there but he clearly felt very little attachment to the country.

That said I don't like Staunton pimping the green shirt round the english leagues like some cheap wh0re.