QuoteYes but, and I'm not just having a go here, would anyone bar an already converted Longford fan pay money to see them play with the 'style' of football they employ?Originally Posted by Dodge
Well now, hear hear I say. Fúck it, muddy pitches, frozen pitches, frozen bollíx, windy, rain, hail, sleet etc.......
There is no way back
Long live summer footie
Yes but, and I'm not just having a go here, would anyone bar an already converted Longford fan pay money to see them play with the 'style' of football they employ?
Dodge: in all seriousness, would people prefer to go to Bray in July or January? Don't blame the better weather conditions of a summer season for the EL's inability to attract new fans.
Watching football in winter sucks and I'll never forget the sight of an old Rovers fan, now departed, dripping snot profusely from his nose and turning blue on the uncovered terrace in Dalymount in torrential drizzle during the late-1980s. My heart went out to the man. All he wanted was to watch Rovers, as he had done since the 1920s, and he suffered greatly for his devotion.
No one deserves such treatment, least of all the loyal band of EL fans whose devotion to their clubs is unquestionable.
Let's enjoy our days in the sun. We've earned every one of them.
To an extent this debate is a bit of a no-brainer, what is any neutral going to opt for in December/January? A nice warm couch/barstool or the option of going to his local ground in the pouring rain or freezing cold?
I think summer football should be kept but with one proviso, a three week break from mid June to the first week in July. Remember, most clubs are still part time and will be for the foreseeable future, so players and their family's as well as club officials etc could plan their break for this time, this would also avoid clashes with World Cup's and European Championships.
What the EL also need to do is run a TV advertising campaign coinciding with the end of the football season in the Uk. An ad campaign similar in style to the GAA's.
Overall Summer Footie has been good IMO. European results bear this out, or does anyone want to go back to results like Zimbru/St.Pat's? And befeore any Pat's fans jump down my throat I am merely highlighting this as an example.
''and I for one welcome our new insect overlords''
Increased TV coverage is more to do with Setanta having schedules to fill than anything else. It's totally changed the domestic sports coverage in the country with the increased competition in the market.
As for summer football being better, well maybe it is, but I think there's more competition in the summer, even if that is just beers in the sun. That's before we get into competition from the GAA, which for rural clubs shouldn't be underestimated. And btw, how about a trip to bray in the last few weeks of the season - won't be any different to a winter season...
Increased prize money is more to do with the FAI power struggles than european progress.
Like I say, not necessarily totally against summer football, but remain to be convinced of it's real benefits..
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I agree with the above. A break for the world cup/European championships would be a great help for the league. No one wants to play in games with Ireland in the WC
I'm still buzzing from winning Uefa Cup tie last week so in feel good mode...
Its amazing the FAI don't run promotional campaigns for the eL on the back of Ireland International matches. I know they have that promotion with the Star for France tickets but should really be running more high profile versions ont hat theme. IF we were to qualify for the World Cup would be huge opportunity to bribe people to attending the eL so could win World Cup tickets, meet Irish players at eL games etc...
I think mid season break of say 3 weeks (Ireland won't last longer than that in competition) during the World Cup would be necessary. I think its common in other summer football leagues like Sweden.
And the other TV stations? Like I said, the first of Shels two in a row campaign RTE showed one league game. Before Hajduk Split they showed none that season, after they must have been near double digits, before Setanta got involved. TG4 hadn't shown a single league game, do you really think this has nothing to do with the hype generated over the European success and do you really think the European success has nothing to do with summer football?
Increased prize money is to do with the TV companies, no? So imo can be directly related to success in Europe.
Simply compare the league pre summer football and now. It is in a much better state and summer football has alot but not all to do with that. Why go back? For what possible benefit?
Bottom line is though, what case is there to be made for a return to winter football? I, personally, cannot think of one specific advantage that an autumn to spring season has over what we have now.
Ireland: Discovered!
INteresting article in the IRish TImes today:
"Problems with summer soccer must be attended to
Paul Buttner
National League column: Has the improvement in results of National League teams in Europe over the last two seasons overshadowed the concern among many clubs that summer soccer just hasn't worked?
Following their continental campaign last year - which drew 24,000 to Lansdowne Road for their clash with Deportivo La Coruna - Shelbourne again drew large crowds, and again received extensive media attention, for their Champions League games with Glentoran and Steaua Bucharest this season.
Cork City's rousing 0-0 draw with Djurgardens, and qualification for the first round proper of the Uefa Cup, before a packed Turner's Cross last Thursday (and beamed live on television) further strengthened the perception that everything's rosy in the domestic game.
There can be little doubt that the switch to a summer season has greatly benefited the league's European participants - one of its chief aims.
Irish teams are fitter and better-organised and have acquired a tactical nous conducive to competing in Europe that was lacking heretofore.
However, a noticeable drop off in attendances - particularly during July and August - at many clubs not competing at the business end of things has caused a ripple of concern.
Waterford United, top of the table - albeit for a brief week - back in April, drew up to 3,000 for the Munster derby with Cork City at the RSC five weeks later. When they sank to 10th place by July, attendances of only 300 or so were recorded for the visits of UCD and Bray Wanderers.
A recent St Patrick's Athletic derby meeting with Shelbourne attracted less than 1,900 to Richmond Park. The game was live on television and St Patrick's are a team in transition, but, still, that fixture attracted crowds almost double that a few years ago.
Longford Town, despite their achievements in winning two FAI Cups and a League Cup in the last two years, say their crowds are down noticeably on winter seasons. A mere 800 attended their FAI Cup game with UCD on Saturday night.
First Division leaders Sligo Rovers average around 1,200 - but stress that would be 20 to 30 per cent higher in a winter season, owing mainly to the counterattraction of GAA in the summer months. Dublin City, whose crowds barely exceed a couple of hundred, would lead the call for a change back to the traditional season.
Contrary to the perception of some, though, unofficial attendance figures tell us crowds have actually increased marginally on last year's average of approximately 1,600 to over 1,800 - though Cork going so well may be the chief reason for that.
Those figures are for the Premier Division only, leaving crowds here comparable to those in the Conference in England. Average attendances for both National League divisions are between 12,000 and 13,000 per round of 11 games.
Having had three years now of the change, all clubs have been asked by the league for submissions on how it has worked or otherwise with a view to structuring 2006 and beyond.
At a "Media, Marketing and Money" seminar the league is hosting tomorrow, Professor Bill Gerrard of Leeds University, an international authority on sports finance, will tell us the National League is categorised fifth - on a ranking scale of six - for average attendances from the top divisions across Europe. Ireland is bottom of that fifth category (1,500- 3,000), somewhat surprisingly behind the likes of Cyprus and Albania.
Whatever about attendances, there is little doubt that on the field is where the real benefits have occurred. And the absence of complaints from players is interesting. In a survey done by the PFAI last season, over 90 per cent of players said they would like a mid-season break, though little more than half that number said they would accept a pay freeze during it.
A hiatus is almost certain for next summer's World Cup finals in Germany - especially so should Ireland qualify.
Summer soccer here has attracted interest from overseas, with both the League of Wales - who sent a delegation to speak to clubs here - and the Irish League considering following suit.
Despite reservations in some quarters, it would appear the bulk of the Premier Division clubs would be reluctant to switch back now.
Unless those who continue to harbour qualms about it can mount a strong campaign to convince those who are relatively happy with the status quo, summer soccer looks here to stay".
"I'd rather play in front of a full house than an empty crowd" Johnny Giles
That article again seems to miss the point about attendences
"a noticeable drop off in attendances - particularly during July and August - at many clubs not competing at the business end of things has caused a ripple of concern"
In case they hadn't noticed, july and august is mid season. That is when crowds are always at their lowest, the buzz of the new season has worn off and the buzz of the business end of the season where everything is up for grabs has yet to kick in. Same as anywhere. Clubs not competing at the business end of thigns ALWAYS get poor crowds, any country, any league.
"Waterford United, top of the table - albeit for a brief week - back in April, drew up to 3,000 for the Munster derby with Cork City at the RSC five weeks later. When they sank to 10th place by July, attendances of only 300 or so were recorded for the visits of UCD and Bray Wanderers."
First of all, is 300 really correct? Anyway, that is no suprise at all. Top of the table and playing in derby = big crowd. Bottom of table and playing ucd = sh*t crowd. Blaming summer soccer for what is simple a fact of league football here is missing the point.
Longfords crowds are down for a few reasons. One, they play football nobody would pay to watch bar the hardcore fans. Secondly, their hype from getting promoted and beating all before them albeit in the first division has worn off and now they are simply an established mid table team. Those teams attract less crowds, no shock there.
Yes it's right our crowds are poor, but they've always been poor, changing to summer soccer was never going to be a miracle cure, so I don't see the relevance of all that to an article debating the merits of summer soccer.
That article was terrible. Was reading this morning & the examples he used were bad. Waterford are having shocking season since Murphy left so not comparing like with like. Comparing Pats v Shels with one 3 years ago is bad example too for numerous reasons. Longford fans also seem to be bored with their football style. Then he includes comment from Sligo which can't be seen as any fact.
The only thing correct in that article is that need convincing arguments to get season changed to winter again.
The only thing consistent about the eL is that we'll yoyo between 10 & 12 team Premier & summer & winter football.
at least there's something about the EL in the paper besides the usual hooliganism fictions. Not sure about the tactical nous acquired by Irish teams in Europe though - did he actually see any of the games?
Foot.ie's entire existence is predicated on the average idiot's inability to ignore other idiots
Cork City v Djungerdens. Surely that was a tactical "win" as oppsoed to the old backs to that wall & long ball?
yeah, but is that a consequence of summer soccer or the effect of an experienced manager who already has "tactical nous"? I fail to see how Shels or Longford benefitted tactically in Europe from summer soccer.Cork City v Djungerdens. Surely that was a tactical "win" as oppsoed to the old backs to that wall & long ball?
(knew i should have put a cork disclaimer at the end of the post)
Foot.ie's entire existence is predicated on the average idiot's inability to ignore other idiots
Seeing as the Swedes have a similar Spring to Autumn season as ourselves Cork would have been at a serious disadvantage fitness-wise had they played this tie just coming into the start of a new season as would have been the case up until three years ago. Summer football levelled the playing field in that regard.yeah, but is that a consequence of summer soccer or the effect of an experienced manager who already has "tactical nous"? I fail to see how Shels or Longford benefitted tactically in Europe from summer soccer.
(knew i should have put a cork disclaimer at the end of the post
As for Shels, they came up against a team that was missing first team players because they were still on their summer holidays - hence a comfortable win - all thanks to summer football!
Ireland: Discovered!
Fitness and general sharpness I agree with, but it's the tactical part that has me puzzled.
Irish teams are fitter and better-organised and have acquired a tactical nous conducive to competing in Europe that was lacking heretofore
Foot.ie's entire existence is predicated on the average idiot's inability to ignore other idiots
The problem arising now is similar to those that arise with every significant change in Irish football. We switch to summer football and wait to see what effect it has on attendances. Why is everything done separately? One change is expected to fix the lower attandances at eL games. A switch to summer football does not mean we don't need proper marketing and promotion of the game. Or proper facilities in which to watch them. Summer football on its own won't increase attendances. Marketing on its own won't. Facilities on their own won't. Its a package of things that's needed to achieve better attendances.
I am a huge fan of summer football. I agree with Mr Lord. Give me football in the sunshine anyday.
"It's impossible to make a man understand something when his livelihood depends on him not understanding" Upton Sinclair
If I had a choice between going to St. Colmans park in December or July, July would win hands down.
Look at the pitches around the country.
Turners Cross, Ballybofey, The Brandywell. They are all in excellent condition.
Remember Inchicore, in the winter. It was pure ****e. Mud and puddles.
Attendences is long term problem. There is no quick fix. Change peoples perceptions, better facilities etc., these are the bigger obstacles IMO.
In his newspaper column, Dermot "I hate summer football" Keely used Shels' 1-4 defeat in Europe, to launch a "Genesis-like" tirade against summer football, attendance figures, the entire league, and the whole set-up of football in this country from the top down.
Crowds are down due to the ludicrous kick-off times. Games spread over 4 weekend nights that often put exteremely unfair demands on visiting fans, and games clashing with live GAA tv coverage are the main reasons why crowds are poor, not the timing of the season. Until all league games are played at the same time on Saturday evenings, except for one live tv game, together with proper marketing, will attendances improve.
Dermot Keely is boss of the worst-supported team in the NL, a junior side acting under a commercial title, who play home games in the Discovering Ireland Division that clash with live GAA tv games, and by doing so, go out of their way to ensure that as few people as possible attend their games. It's no surprise therefore, that they are the main advocates of winter football.
The league is progressing, if only gradually. There is more prize money on offer, there are loads of live tv games being shown, and despite the odd bad defeat, our clubs are regularly winning rounds in Europe. It's important that we build on the current momentum that the league is generating, and not go back to the past of muddy ploughfields, regular postponements, and moral victories in Europe, just to satisfy Dermot Keely and others who are still stuck in their ways, maintaining that football is a "winter-only" sport.
Last edited by mypost; 31/08/2005 at 3:50 AM.
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