2023 FAI Cup

[JC_GUFC]

I actually do think the FAI needs to look at reconfiguring where the best clubs enter into the cup.

Reckon even just letting the 4 European teams into the last 16 would help a lot (as well as helping with their fixture congestion). The 16 other LOI teams + 8 junior teams in an open draw can make up the other 12.

There's very little point having so many junior clubs have the opportunity of playing a club like Shamrock Rovers or Derry.
Too many weak teams making it to semi finals and diluting the big occasions imo, I know there a romance element and fair play to Wexford for their run last year.

Might be a bit of a crazy suggestion but would think letting the LOI underage only entities into round 1 could be interesting. Klub Kildare, CK United, etc. They can't be too much worse than the junior clubs around the country and at least it's in the middle of their season.

That might not be the worst idea - having just 8 non-league clubs (presumably the 4 semi-finalists in Junior/Intermediate Cups or even keep the Prelim round for all 16 Quarter-finalists).

The problem really, isn't so much the standard, but the timing for them. When we played Bluebell last year they probably only had a handful of training sessions under their belt. I think Oliver Bond were similar when they played Derry. So there is definitely the potential of reaching the last 8 without even facing a league side, your suggestion reduces that chance and does solve for fixture congestion for the European clubs (for one game anyway!).

[pineapple stu]

I actually do think the FAI needs to look at reconfiguring where the best clubs enter into the cup.

Reckon even just letting the 4 European teams into the last 16 would help a lot (as well as helping with their fixture congestion). The 16 other LOI teams + 8 junior teams in an open draw can make up the other 12.

There's very little point having so many junior clubs have the opportunity of playing a club like Shamrock Rovers or Derry.
Too many weak teams making it to semi finals and diluting the big occasions imo, I know there a romance element and fair play to Wexford for their run last year.

I think it's great having Dundalk v Rovers so early in the Cup. It opens up the draw for other teams, especially if they can get through this round and get a handy tie next round.

The final last year was a mismatch but it has to have been great for Shels as a club to get that sort of promotional opportunity. And even Treaty in the semis.

I think that's more important than giving the top four another helping hand tbh

Surely the scheduling of the Cup could be rearranged though so it's not in non-league preseason?

[EalingGreen]

There's very little point having so many junior clubs have the opportunity of playing a club like Shamrock Rovers or Derry.
Too many weak teams making it to semi finals and diluting the big occasions imo, I know there a romance element and fair play to Wexford for their run last year.

Interesting observation.

From looking at this thread, I actually remarked on how few teams enter the FAI Cup, rather than "so many". That is, 40 teams made up of the 20 senior clubs (obv), plus 13 x LSL, 3 x MSL, 1 x USL and 3 x Others. What are the criteria for the 20 non-LOI clubs?

By contrast, the 2022/23 Irish Cup (IFA) had 128 entrants from the outset. The 1st Round consisted of 37 ties - an open draw between the 12 teams from the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier) and 62 x Non-League teams (Intermediate tiers 4-7). These were whittled down to a 2nd Round of 32 ties, a 3rd Round of 16 ties and a 4th Round of 8 ties.

From this 4 x PIL and 4 x NL teams progressed to the 5th Round, where they were joined by the 24 Senior teams in an open draw (last 32). And from there on in, it was 6th Round, Quarters, Semi's and Final (9 rounds total), between 13 August 22 and 07 May 23:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2022%E2%80%9323_Irish_Cup

Obviously the lack of a pyramid in ROI, plus the summer/winter split season makes it very hard for the FAI to replicate something like this, while in the end, the top clubs still always make it through the latter stages of the IC*.

But still, I think it a good thing that so many smaller clubs at least get to play other clubs from outside their regional leagues, with an outside chance of a crack at a bigger club. While from the 124 x IC ties played, there were only 4 x serious mismatches/hidings (all in the first three rounds) and 3 x walk-overs for withdrawals, ineligible players etc (all in the first two rounds).


* - Since the turn of the century, there have been 12 different FAI Cup Finalists, including Sporting Fingal, while the IC Final has had 11.

[JC_GUFC]

Interesting observation.

From looking at this thread, I actually remarked on how few teams enter the FAI Cup, rather than "so many". That is, 40 teams made up of the 20 senior clubs (obv), plus 13 x LSL, 3 x MSL, 1 x USL and 3 x Others. What are the criteria for the 20 non-LOI clubs?

So the 20 teams that enter the first round are the last 16 of the FAI Intermediate Cup and the last 4 of the FAI Junior Cup.

Intermediate Football is ranked as a higher standard compared to Junior football but apart from in Dublin it's not structured as such - it's only geographical. So there are no Intermediate clubs in Connacht or Munster other than in Cork.

In total 113 sides entered the FAI Intermediate Cup this season. 70 from Leinster, 40 from Munster and 3 from Donegal.

As far as I can tell 467 sides entered the FAI Junior Cup

[brendy_éire]

Am I right in thinking that there are replays ONLY in the QF and SF?

I don't know how I feel about scrapping the replays - obviously it makes sense for the clubs in Europe. With many non-league clubs unable to host games anyway it's hardly any use for them to "earn" a replay. Like I doubt Kilbarrack would welcome a midweek trip to Finn Harps in the event of a draw. Replays can add to the epic nature of a tie though.

SF just?

I definitely like replays, mostly because I dislike penalty shoot-outs and would rather they never be used in football.
In saying that, I think not having replays makes it easier for the non-favourite to go through, so it has its advantages.

[brendy_éire]

Surely the scheduling of the Cup could be rearranged though so it's not in non-league preseason?

Just looking back, the 2nd used to be played at the end of May.
Could be wrong, but I thought some non-league clubs didn't like it, as it extended their season by a week or two.

[EalingGreen]

So the 20 teams that enter the first round are the last 16 of the FAI Intermediate Cup and the last 4 of the FAI Junior Cup.

Intermediate Football is ranked as a higher standard compared to Junior football but apart from in Dublin it's not structured as such - it's only geographical. So there are no Intermediate clubs in Connacht or Munster other than in Cork.

Interestng, thanks.

In total 113 sides entered the FAI Intermediate Cup this season. 70 from Leinster, 40 from Munster and 3 from Donegal.

Curiously, the IFA Intermediate Cup attracted 112 entrants in 2022/23, though 9 of these were the Reserve teams from Senior clubs. Quite a few of these sides (not the Resrve teams) also entered the Irish Cup.

As far as I can tell 467 sides entered the FAI Junior Cup

Not sure, but I think the last IFA Junior Cup had just under 250 entrants.

[EalingGreen]

Surely the scheduling of the Cup could be rearranged though so it's not in non-league preseason?

If they were to extend the competition to, say, 64 teams i.e. 20 x Senior LOI and 44 x Intermediate or leading Junior teams, you could still have a couple of extra Preliminary Rounds not involving the Senior LOI clubs, to be held during March and April?
And why not bring the 1st Round proper through to end May/early June? For by the time you got to the later rounds, nearly all of the non-LOI teams would have been eliminated already, so their having to play on through mid-summer etc would hardly ever be a feature.

[JC_GUFC]

How would the non-league sides view the IFA Cup matches in the early rounds?

I guess in England being in the First Preliminary Round of the FA Cup is one of the biggest matches of the season - get drawn against some big non-league club etc. and test yourself out against a team 3 or 4 levels above you on the ladder... And obviously later on for teams who start just a few rounds before the first round there is a bit of a dream that should they reach the 3rd round they're off to Old Trafford or Anfield etc.

I think if you had similar in the FAI Cup teams generally wouldn't care - as you say a lot may be to do with the lack of a pyramid (is every thread going to come back to this) - like Bangor Celtic have been drawn away to Galway United - I doubt they see that as any sort of glamour tie, even though it's in one of the nicest grounds in the country and we're the 11th best side in the country as per the ladder.

You could argue that the Intermediate/Junior Cups act as the Prelim competition and that there were exactly 600 teams in this season's FAI Cup!

[pateen]

Are St Michaels AFC, or Kilbarrack United, likely to hold their games at their usual home grounds?

I'm no expert but Kilbarrack seems unlikely, and I am not familiar with St Michaels' setup. Cockhill would be well able to host, but always have the option of Maginn if there was a lot of interest.

Cooke Park in Tipperary Town has a very small stand on one side, a small grasy bank on the other side then standing around pitch side.
I'm guessing 2k max with health n saftey but I'd doubt Waterford would bring 200. Could be wrong.

Expect 1K at the game anyway. Locals will give a warm welcome and plenty of pubs on the main st only 5 mins from the ground.

[EalingGreen]

How would the non-league sides view the IFA Cup matches in the early rounds?

I honestly don't know, but the mere fact of entering each season must show at least the minimum enthusiasm/commitment required.

For the better teams in the third and fourth tiers it offers hope for a bit of a run eg in last season's competition, Crumlin Utd (4th tier) got a 5th round tie away to Larne, while Moyola Park (3rd tier) hosted Glentoran and Banbridge Tn (3rd tier) went to Portadown. While there were 3 more Non-League teams (i.e. Tier 4 or below) in the draw, too. While 3rd tier Bangor got through to the 6th Round/last 8, where two late goals saw them lose 2-1 at home to eventual winners Crusaders.

As for the other, smaller teams, at worst it's just a game or two a season against someone new - no great hardship, I'd have thought, especially since there are no replays.

You could argue that the Intermediate/Junior Cups act as the Prelim competition and that there were exactly 600 teams in this season's FAI Cup!

Aye, you could argue that if you were a graduate of the John Delaney School of Advanced Reasoning and Semantics...

[nigel-harps1954]

Surely the scheduling of the Cup could be rearranged though so it's not in non-league preseason?

Of course, it could all be solved with the FAI growing a pair of balls and implementing proper structures to football in Ireland and enforcing a calendar season or winter season for everyone.

[pateen]

Totally agreed Nigel.

[Bunny Kelly]

Sweden & Norway play the early rounds before the season starts with the semi & final played in the opening couple of months of the season, the cup winners then get into Europe a couple of months later.

Could this ever work, put the season start back to March & have some rounds of cup in February? I find the 2nd half of the season so broken up with the cup, but then it is nice to finish the season with the final

[The Bowler]

Two non league teams are shorter than one premier division team, and five 1st Division teams in the betting market for the FAI Cup. Speaks volumes of where the 1st Division in particular is at right now. Take Galway and Waterford out, and I don't think it has ever been so devoid of quality

[JC_GUFC]

Two non league teams are shorter than one premier division team, and five 1st Division teams in the betting market for the FAI Cup. Speaks volumes of where the 1st Division in particular is at right now. Take Galway and Waterford out, and I don't think it has ever been so devoid of quality

I wouldn't pay any attention to the betting odds. Wexford are more likely to win the cup than Lucan United are - but neither will!

I'd say, a bit like the Premier, the strength-in-depth in Division 1 is better than it's ever been. Galway are not the best team ever to have played in Division 1, though we're probably one of the better ones but Longford are possibly the best team to be 18th in the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

Every. Single. Season. Without. Fail.

Every year seems to be worse than the last. It probably just took longer this year for the annual "worst it's ever been" postings. I remember some truly awful First Division seasons during the recession era. There's always one or two teams half decent, and the rest have a smattering of decent players. It's been that way as long as I've been watching the LOI anyway.

I do think, the last few years have seen a more even spread throughout the teams, however.

[EatYerGreens]

Every. Single. Season. Without. Fail.

Every year seems to be worse than the last. It probably just took longer this year for the annual "worst it's ever been" postings. I remember some truly awful First Division seasons during the recession era. There's always one or two teams half decent, and the rest have a smattering of decent players. It's been that way as long as I've been watching the LOI anyway.

I do think, the last few years have seen a more even spread throughout the teams, however.

I thought the First has been looking more broadly competitive than usual this year? There's the usual one strong team at the top, with Waterford also looking solid for second place. But then there's a mass of 5 teams who could realistically all end up in 3rd place. Inclufing a few surprise contenders like Athlone and Cobh (usually more accustomed to the other end of the table).

The scramble for 3rd to 5th and the play-off slots is going to be very close this year. Maybe it's always like that, but it just feels more lively as a division overall this year.

[nigel-harps1954]

I thought the First has been looking more broadly competitive than usual this year? There's the usual one strong team at the top, with Waterford also looking solid for second place. But then there's a mass of 5 teams who could realistically all end up in 3rd place. Inclufing a few surprise contenders like Athlone and Cobh (usually more accustomed to the other end of the table).

The scramble for 3rd to 5th and the play-off slots is going to be very close this year. Maybe it's always like that, but it just feels more lively as a division overall this year.

Agree totally. A lot depends on the transfer window, but realistically, just about anyone can get a playoff spot yet, even taking the obvious mathematics out of it. Anyone adds three or four semi decent players, they'll be in with a shout. Outside of Galway and Waterford, it's as competitive as it's ever been.

[EatYerGreens]

Agree totally. A lot depends on the transfer window, but realistically, just about anyone can get a playoff spot yet, even taking the obvious mathematics out of it. Anyone adds three or four semi decent players, they'll be in with a shout. Outside of Galway and Waterford, it's as competitive as it's ever been.

Very surprised by how much Hraps have struggled this year btw. Presumably the bookies had you as one of the favourites for a play-off spot. What's the deal? Did you lose a load of players from last year? Is Rogers just not up to the task?