No, that happened in the 2012 and 2016 tournaments because the FAI failed to build up youth development in Ireland as UK clubs that traditionally patched that hole for us started recruiting globally as their budgets and prestige increased. There was a legitimate lack of talent behind the generation that produced Keane, Duff, Dunne, Given, Harte, Kelly, Finnan, Carr, O'Shea, etc.Originally Posted by backstothewall
Wes was a late bloomer. He scored a lot of goals in the Championship in 10/11, when he was already 28. Prior to that, he had one season in the Championship two years earlier, when he was fairly unremarkable. In spite of that, he was in training camps and squads of Trapattoni's, and even got some game time in some meaningless friendy games. It sounds to me like he was given a chance at exactly the appropriate time in his career.It's the reason why Wes Hoolahan got 1 cap in his 20, and 42 in his 30s. It's the reason why Jack Grealish wasn't tied to us when he was lighting up League One for Notts County. We never never gamble on the future. Even for a couple of totally meaningless friendly games, some of the Irish public freak out at the idea of throwing a kid in and giving him an opportunity.
And when they're ready, they can play.Nobody is saying the 3 kids we're talking about are better than O'Dowda. I'm just saying that there's a chance that they could be one day. It might even be even by the time the real football comes round.
Nothing is learned from watching a green player out of their depth. Is there a chance that one of the great many players who get mentioned as worth a look is in fact worth a look? Yes. But it's the job of the management team to identify those players and to give them the opportunity when they're ready, not to squander the rare moments they get to prepare and assess the team in match play in order to watch a large number of teenagers confirm their professional judgement that they're not ready yet. 30 minutes of a meaningless friendly doesn't change anyone's career trajectory, and it wouldn't have tied Greelish to us. All it does is satisfy the grass is always greener itch.Throwing in a couple of U21s for half an hour each has all the potential upside I outlined above.
A start in senior football is a huge milestone for him. Great to see it. Hopefully he has a great few months there and kicks on.
You obviously and undeniably learn that they're still too green out of their depth.
There are no guarantees either way with any young player until they are out there
That's why I'm suggesting trying 2 of them. It's entirely possible one or both of them would look lost. But if one of them is able step up and takes to it the gamble pays off. Because it's a friendly game the risk is very low but the potential reward is huge.
But this is obviously a dynamic situation with the loan move. He's playing now at a better level* than any Irish left back bar Manning or McNulty. If he thrives in Belgium by the time March comes round he may be called up on merit rather than as part of a strategic gamble to give youth an opportunity.
* https://worldsoccertalk.com/news/bes...ST-459681.html
Last edited by backstothewall; 29/01/2024 at 12:23 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
You don't need to cap someone to learn that. That's what scouting is for, and why the management team would be at 21s games.
Scales and O'Dowda might beg to differ
He might - but again, to be clear, you suggested he be called up even if he wasn't getting his game in Belgium.
Scouting is a tool. It only get you so far. What would extended scouting of Harry Kane on loan at Leicester in 2013 have revealed? I doubt the notes made by many scouts would have suggested his 2 goals form 13 appearances in the Championship were the mark of a guy who would become England's all time top scorer.
O'Dowda isn't playing at any level and hasn't since August. That's something he needs to take up with his manager and his agent.
Realistically playing Scales means reverting to a back four, which absent McClean means finding a left winger who can provide some width from the left. That's a whole other can of worms.
In any case both OPTA and UEFA have the Belgian Pro league ranked as being stronger than the SPL.
Last edited by backstothewall; 29/01/2024 at 1:06 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
O'Dowda is injured and due back in the next few weeks.
Scales has also been playing Champions League (and thriving in it), which is a heck of a lot stronger than fighting relegation from the Belgian division. Both divisions have tails but you wouldn't argue someone at Ross County is playing at the same level as someone at Celtic. (Or you certainly shouldn't)
Last edited by pineapple stu; 29/01/2024 at 1:09 PM.
Of course not. Scales was playing Champions League in the champions league within the last few months. He's another excellent example of how people can defy all expectations when given an opportunity. There was nothing any scout could have observed about his loan spell at Aberdeen last season suggesting he would be winning MOTM awards in the Champions League within 12 months.
But he's not realistically going to take the ball up the field or make attacking runs up the left wing. Playing him at LB means finding a left winger, probably a left footed one, which we simply don't have right now.
We have 3 active left-footed players under 30 with senior caps. Scales, Manning, Hamilton, plus O'Dowda who has been out since August.
With injuries and suspensions we're at risk of going into a game looking dreadfully unbalanced (for a team who rely on set pieces as heavily we do that's a major problem). Given only Scales is and Manning are playing at the sort of level we would normally consider, we're going to have to do something unconventional
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Actually once Rodgers brought in a new system and started looking at players in pre-season, he fairly quickly twigged that Scales would fit. I think he commented on it during pre-season. Ange was playing Scales slightly out of position (I'm not sold on him at left-back, going back to UCD days) but also in a very high-tempo pressing system which maybe didn't suit Scales, particularly in terms of coming from the lower-fitness levels of the LoI.
So scouting works.
Yes, we have a crisis, but that doesn't mean we can solve it by throwing guys in who are on the Premier League bench purely because it covers home-grown requirements, and who were recalled from their only loan spell because they didn't make a lower division team (and then further suggesting they should be called up even if they move to Belgium and still don't get a game)
Manning, MacNulty, Scales and O'Dowda seem adequate if uninspired cover for the position at present. I'd be far more inclined to blood MacNulty than Adaramola at present. That may change come March of course.
The issue with Scales is that he's a decent centre back, but a very poor left back. I'm not sure he should really be in the left back conversation at all.
Keane O'Shea Given Best Smallbone
Yep, I've put that reservation out a number of times, but I think he'd still be ahead of a guy on the PL bench to satisfy home-grown requirements, who was recalled from his only loan spell for not getting any game time, who isn't our 21s starting left-back (I'll have to take the poster who said that on trust cos i don't know who's there myself) and who (in the OP) mightn't even be getting his game at Molenbeek
I don't agree with the idea of capping random thing players cos "You never know" - as the discussion on Conor Coventry has shown
Yeah Roughan is first choice LB for our 21s and could argue that McNulty might be second choice with Furlong and Adaramola battling it out for third choice.
I mean, that rests it for me - the coaches are deciding that order. Things may change by March of course, but I'm happy to go with their professional judgement from working with the players.
Based on 15 appearances for Celtic in his first season at that level under a very demanding system? You likely wouldn't have rated him as decent at centre back until recently either.
Far too early to write him off at LB or LWB. He was excellent there for Rovers. Good crosser and a great finisher. Was a winger growing up.
Might be featuring on the left for Celtic soon too so we will have more info then.
21 leagues and 25 cups.
I will say that Anselmo (as far as I remember) hasn't played left back for the 21s, it's been all centre-half in a 4, or LCB in a 5. Roughan is definitely first choice and at the start of the campaign, Furlong was second choice but in the most recent camp, Tayo was picked ahead of Furlong. So I'd say it's:
RB:
1. Curtis
2. Abankwah
LB:
1. Roughan
2. Adaramola
3. Furlong
CB
1. Lawal
2. Garcia-McNulty
3. O'Riordan
4. Grehan
Then you've got Alex Murphy who is probably a centre-back but also maybe a left back.
In the macro discussion about left backs with Manning, Brady, O'Dowda, Lyons, Scales, Stevens, Roughan, Adaramola, Bagan, Tom O'Connor, Murphy - I'd also include Danny MacNamara who can definitely play there (don't think he's really played much this season) and Jon Gallagher, long shot but worth a shot.
Can Kioso play on the left?
Not a good day for him today at home against Anderlecht - they're 3-0 down, he was at fault for one of the goals, and went off before the half-hour, which I presume has to be due to injury. Presume that would rule out any chance of a senior call-up later in the month
He's probably a bit off a senior call up yet. It's an area of need but he needs more development. Not even a guaranteed u21 starter
Its really not that complicated!!!
I do tend to agree with this (as noted earlier in the thread...!) - but it is a position we're increasingly desperate in. Though if he's injured then that certainly ends the matter.
Posting Permissions
Quote
Bookmarks