Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[legendz]

Not qualified to comment on that myself, but t does sound plausible.

And if so, I'd say it needs to be rooted out, which effectively means starting again. Essentially, pyramids are built from the bottom up. And the building blocks are not regions, areas, counties or provinces etc, they're clubs.

More specifically clubs which have the vision, resources, organisation, finances, support and community links to enter a pyramid and progress through it (provided they're given the necessary encouragemnet and support from the FAI etc.). So that it shouldn't matter if 90% of the teams eg come from greater Dublin, say, they need to be viable.

You then organise them in local leagues, with pronotion and relegation etc, requiring minimum standards as regards sadium and facilities etc. These standards need to be progressivley upgraded as the leagues develop, so as to prepare (5-10 years?) for entry of the best teams (both on and off the pitch) to Intermediate Leagues. These would need to be organised on a regional basis, grouped round where the participating clubs are located.

And once Intermediate football is bedded in (another 5-10 years?), you complete the pyramid by linking it to the two Senior Divisions.

Then assuming this pyramid becomes established, in time this should encourage new clubs from outside traditional football heartlands to sign up and have a go.

Well thats what I think, anyhow!

How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?
Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?

[EalingGreen]

How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?

As clubs have declined eg (Distillery, Bangor, Ards, Newry etc) or even disappeared (eg Omagh Town, Derry City), new clubs have emerged or grown to take their places (eg Ballinamallard, Institute, Warrenpoint, Annagh, Ballymacash).
Consequently there are more senior clubs in existence, with better set-ups, in a much wider geographical spread than ever before. While those declining clubs have founbd a "home" in the pyramid more suited to their status, while they regroup and go again (eg Newry, Bangor).

Consequently NI routinely supports 24 senior clubs, of varying size and status, while the much larger and wealthier ROI struggles to achieve 20 such clubs.We couldn't have managed this without the pyramid.

Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?

Sorry, I'm not qualified to answer this.

[legendz]

Consequently NI routinely supports 24 senior clubs, of varying size and status, while the much larger and wealthier ROI struggles to achieve 20 such clubs.We couldn't have managed this without the pyramid.

How many of the 24 senior clubs have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?

[nigel-harps1954]

How many clubs in the Irish League have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?
Do Castleisland, Killarney and Tralee have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Newmarket on Fergus, Ennis, Shannon, Sixmilebridge and Kilrush have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?
Do Rathkeale, Glin, Abbeyfeale and Newcastlewest have a better chance of attaining professional status by going on their own?

I would say they'd have a better chance of attaining a professional status as part of a pyramid, as opposed to the current setup.

Year on year, building a little more as they progress up the divisions is a much more sustainable route than deciding they want to join the LOI and jump out straight of a junior or intermediate league.

Would Tralee Dynamos have been better off being able to be promoted and relegated into senior LOI divisions, rather than the joys they had of rejoining the Kerry league at the bottom of their ladder again after leaving the A Championship?

[legendz]

I would say they'd have a better chance of attaining a professional status as part of a pyramid, as opposed to the current setup.

Year on year, building a little more as they progress up the divisions is a much more sustainable route than deciding they want to join the LOI and jump out straight of a junior or intermediate league.

Would Tralee Dynamos have been better off being able to be promoted and relegated into senior LOI divisions, rather than the joys they had of rejoining the Kerry league at the bottom of their ladder again after leaving the A Championship?

Another thread is suggesting CCFL clubs are rowing against Longford Town. A lot of clubs coming through a pyramid system would have similar problems.
As a starting point, should there be a champions cup for district league champions? It could be the only change or it could help create the platform where district leagues would offer promotion to a regional league.
If Fanad United progressed through a pyramid, would they join the LoI after having teams already in place in the youth leagues?
There has to be a separation between elite level and elite recreation level. If a club wants to transition from elite recreational level to elite, there has to be a licensing process that is fair for all. The only solution again is dual pyramid structure. The LoI at elite level, with as many tiers are as required for clubs attaining an elite licence.
The second pyramid then for district recreational leagues that offer promotion to regional elite recreational leagues.

[nigel-harps1954]

Separation of football in Ireland what has us in this mess.

[pineapple stu]

There has to be a separation between elite level and elite recreation level. If a club wants to transition from elite recreational level to elite, there has to be a licensing process that is fair for all. The only solution again is dual pyramid structure.

You say this even though, in England and most other European leagues, this exact outcome is achieved without resorting to a dual pyramid...

[EalingGreen]

How many of the 24 senior clubs have attained professional status because of the pyramid structure?

In the Prem, Larne - currently top of the Division - had to go down to the 3rd tier when they didn't meet senior requirements - they've worked their way back up. And when Newry (est.1918) went under, without a pyramid their phoenix club, NCAFC (Est. 2012) could never have started again at the bottom and worked their way back up, with Warrenpoint Town (Est.1987) flying the IL flag in South Down in the meantime..

In the Championship, at least half the clubs have "come from nowhere" in the last two or three decades, while established clubs like Institute and Ards have recently been in the Prem.

While beneath them in the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), Bangor, Armagh and Distillery are all former top tier clubs who would almost certaoinly be in a far worse state without the pyramid - if they still existed at all. While eg Ballymacash* and Dollingstown have also "come from nowhere" in their bid for Senior football.

Which is not to say it's all wonderful - it certainly isn't - but there is no doubt that football at the upper levels would be in a considerably worse state without a pyramid, with the benefits (better facilities,wider spread of teams, improved standards etc.) trickling down through Internediate football and even to Junior level

* - From having started out as a boys club in the 1980's, Ballymacash have grown to incorporate mens, girls, womens and Academy football and now have clear aspirations towards Senior status - see eg these developments from 2020: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/...llion-17314188, leading to: https://www.belfastlive.co.uk/sport/...ports-18562617, even against the background of Covid etc.

[legendz]

You say this even though, in England and most other European leagues, this exact outcome is achieved without resorting to a dual pyramid...

I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.

In the Championship, at least half the clubs have "come from nowhere" in the last two or three decades, while established clubs like Institute and Ards have recently been in the Prem.

Are these clubs becoming professional? If they are, is it sustainable?

Separation of football in Ireland what has us in this mess.

Walk before one can run. A champions cup for district league champions might encourage the creation of higher level regional tiers. I agree with linking district leagues to provincial/regional leagues. Elite level should remain open for all. If Fanad want to join elite level, they should join the youth leagues and meet other elite licence criteria. The youth leagues have been careful so far so as to not over saturate an area. I would agree with applying that at elite level.
There are district league clubs rowing against LoI clubs. They are hindering the attainability of a professional setup. There needs to be a clear distinction between elite, elite recreational and recreational.

[pineapple stu]

I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.

You don't agree with relegation?

What a bizarre thing not to agree with

[EalingGreen]

I don't agree with the idea that clubs that have made the commitment to elite level would be forced out.

"We were here first, so we must be here forever more" is it, then? "And if need be, we will draw up the ladder behind us, in case any newcomers shouild come along to threaten us. You know, by playing better football and drawing bigger crowds."

Are these clubs becoming professional?

They already have, at least on a semi-pro basis, same as the other, established* clubs.

* - As it happens, Larne, the Glens and Blues have recently gone f-t professional, with the Crues operating a hybrid system. But while this makes it harder for the other clubs to compete on the field, in itself it shouldn't affect their overall sustainability, so long as they "cut their cloth accordingly".

If they are, is it sustainable?

And yes, they generally are sustainable, as evidenced by the fact that far fewer of the IL's 24 senior clubs have gone bust than from amongst the LOI's 19 clubs. While even if they should prove unsustainable at the highest levels, the existence of a pyramid means they can still find their natural level, rather than be forced to "do a Tralee"

Indeed it is hard to underestimate how important the pyramid is for all this. For example, when Newry Town (Est.1918) went bust (I think) due to an incompetent Board, the supporters still controlled the stadium, and so were able to form a phoenix club in 2012, which started at the bottom of the pyramid and worked their way back up. During their absence, neighbouring Warrenpoint (Est.1987) were able to take advantage by signing their players, coaches etc, and gained promotion to the IL Prem in their place! Curiously enough, the Point were relegated to the Championship after last season, with their place being taken by Newry City AFC! AFC's average crowds this season are just under 1k, but they drew over 2k for their first game back in the Prem, a Sunday game at home to Linfield! And seeing as they own their own stadium, like the great majority of Senior clubs in NI, they ought, just, to be able to stay sustainable at that level.

Another good example are Bangor FC. Formed in 1914, they were always a member of the single tier Irish League (no promotion or relegation), with a conspicuous lack of success, often bumping along the bottom in front of paltry crowds etc.. They enjoyed a "Golden Age" in the early 1980's however, winning the Irish Cup and playing in Europe etc, but overreached themselves financially, getting relegated to the newly introduced lower divisions for a spell. Eventually, when back in the top division, they realised that they could no longer compete financially at that level. But instead of going bust, they voluntarily resigned from Senior football after first fulfilling their fixtures and have played Intermediate football instead for the last decade, even down to the fourth tier. The good news, however, is that they have now got their finances in order, are improving the stadium and are challenging at the top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), from where it is now their stated ambition to get back into Senior football.

Had it not been for the pyramid, which allowed them to regroup, they would almost certainly have disappeared entirely, with their ground sold off for housing etc. Which for a provincial town of over 60k people would have represented a severe loss to domestic football in NI.

[Buller]

Indeed it is hard to underestimate how important the pyramid is for all this. For example, when Newry Town (Est.1918) went bust (I think) due to an incompetent Board, the supporters still controlled the stadium, and so were able to form a phoenix club in 2012, which started at the bottom of the pyramid and worked their way back up. During their absence, neighbouring Warrenpoint (Est.1987) were able to take advantage by signing their players, coaches etc, and gained promotion to the IL Prem in their place! Curiously enough, the Point were relegated to the Championship after last season, with their place being taken by Newry City AFC! AFC's average crowds this season are just under 1k, but they drew over 2k for their first game back in the Prem, a Sunday game at home to Linfield! And seeing as they own their own stadium, like the great majority of Senior clubs in NI, they ought, just, to be able to stay sustainable at that level.

Another good example are Bangor FC. Formed in 1914, they were always a member of the single tier Irish League (no promotion or relegation), with a conspicuous lack of success, often bumping along the bottom in front of paltry crowds etc.. They enjoyed a "Golden Age" in the early 1980's however, winning the Irish Cup and playing in Europe etc, but overreached themselves financially, getting relegated to the newly introduced lower divisions for a spell. Eventually, when back in the top division, they realised that they could no longer compete financially at that level. But instead of going bust, they voluntarily resigned from Senior football after first fulfilling their fixtures and have played Intermediate football instead for the last decade, even down to the fourth tier. The good news, however, is that they have now got their finances in order, are improving the stadium and are challenging at the top of the Premier Intermediate League (3rd tier), from where it is now their stated ambition to get back into Senior football.

Had it not been for the pyramid, which allowed them to regroup, they would almost certainly have disappeared entirely, with their ground sold off for housing etc. Which for a provincial town of over 60k people would have represented a severe loss to domestic football in NI.

Really interesting with Newry and Bangor - didnt know that background at all thanks for posting.

Similar happened with LOI clubs going bust in the naughties. Rovers, Shelbourne, Derry City and Cork City were all relegated around that time and went through periods of rebuilding in the First Division. A full pyramid down to amateur levels might have actually prolonged some suffering it could be argued. Bohs went bust too but managed to rebuild while maintaining Premier status.

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.

Happy Christmas all!

[pineapple stu]

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.

Two years technically - Scottish second tier is fully pro (though you're right that they didn't two years there, hilariously losing the playoffs first time)

The flip side of your argument though I guess is that simply dropping one tier isn't a huge disincentive to financial mismanagement. Or even no punishment at all if you're a First Division side (eg Waterford). Teams don't tend to fold in England as much - Bury are a recent exception, re-forming in the tenth tier - but they tend to go into administration instead. We don't have administration here - or rather it's called examinership instead - but here it's the exception (Longford/Shamrock Rovers) rather than the rule.

I'm not sure in practical terms what the difference is, but I presume in administration you have to agree to pay your creditors x in the £ whereas by going bust you don't have to pay anyone. Again, the former sounds fairer in general, if obviously still not ideal. I think the problems Rangers got into were so unprecedentedly large they couldn't even begin to make inroads

Also yep - happy Christmas foot.ie-ers!

[Longfordian]

We've never been in administration/examinership.

[pineapple stu]

Oh. What was the points deduction back in the mid noughties for then?

[Longfordian]

That was for late submission of information for licensing. As far as I know our external auditor at the time was having some kind of personal issue so he was late in signing off the accounts.

[EalingGreen]

Similar happened with LOI clubs going bust in the naughties. Rovers, Shelbourne, Derry City and Cork City were all relegated around that time and went through periods of rebuilding in the First Division. A full pyramid down to amateur levels might have actually prolonged some suffering it could be argued. Bohs went bust too but managed to rebuild while maintaining Premier status.

Otoh, a full pyramid might have "prolonged the suffering", as you say.

Oto, it might (a ) have prevented clubs going bust in the first place, had they known that the consequences of going bust would have been dropping to eg the 5th or 6th tier to start back up again. [In La Liga, Administration incurs an automatic demotion of two levels i.e. Primera clubs go down to the 3rd tier, which is regionalised and pretty much semi-pro, while Segunda clubs go to the 4th tier. And it is deliberately a two division demotion to stop eg a struggling Primera club which would probably get relegated anyhow, deliberately going into Admin, taking the relegation hit then starting again in the Segunda effectively debt free.]

While (b ), a pyramid would open opportunities for ambitious 3rd and 4th tier clubs to take the place of struggling Senior teams.

If Glasgow Rangers werent relegated 4 tiers down to the bottom of the Scottish pyramid when they reformed - they might have recovered sooner? They spent 4 years (I think?) having to play semi-pro outfits. But yes, I think going down a tier can actually help the process.

Tbh, I still can't get my head round whether Sevco are just the old club in a new wrapper, or a brand new entity entirely. But if it were the latter, then properly speaking they should have been wound up and a new, phoenix club required to start again right at the very bottom in eg the Glasgow & District League Division 3 (orwhatever) like eg Bury FC have had to do in England. But of course whatever the rights and wrongs of the case, there is no way the SFA would ever have countenanced that latter outcome.

Happy Christmas all...

... and a Merry New Year!

[EalingGreen]

I'm not sure in practical terms what the difference is, but I presume in administration you have to agree to pay your creditors x in the £ whereas by going bust you don't have to pay anyone. Again, the former sounds fairer in general, if obviously still not ideal. I think the problems Rangers got into were so unprecedentedly large they couldn't even begin to make inroads

No expert either, but that seems about right to me.

I suspect the réason why English clubs usually go into Administration and avoid Receivership is that they usually own their own ground. So that if they are in trouble, they still have a tangible asset upon which to resume operating (along with their League membership,. of course). The real problems occur when club and stadium ownership get legally separated. In such cases, unless there is a benefactor willing to step in, the old club has no real assets to secure the financial backing needed to start again. (The Newry situation was most unusual in that the stadium remained in the hands of the supporters, rather than eg some property developer.)

[outspoken]

That was for late submission of information for licensing. As far as I know our external auditor at the time was having some kind of personal issue so he was late in signing off the accounts.

As someone who was only really getting into supporting De Town back then, was that the case or was the club just fooked financially and we were dragging our feet? I remember reading after relegation that year we were over €1 million in debt, there was a real fear of the club folding.

[Longfordian]

They weren't related really. We were in trouble financially but even though it was always a last minute job to get everything done for licensing every year in those days the accounts were with the auditor in sufficient time according to our officials at the time. You could argue they should have accounted for an emergency like that but it's hard to be too critical those working themselves to the bone on a purely voluntary basis. It wasn't an issue any other year. Arguably it was for the best that we went down that year. We may not have been able to overcome the extra debt another year in the Premier Division would have brought. It was hard enough to deal with the debt that was there already.

We absolutely could have been gone but for a few individuals putting in enough money to satisfy the Revenue. They were the big danger, no other creditor really wanted to see us out of business. Deals were done with them all in the end.