QuoteMonaghan United dropped out of the Ulster Senior League, and now compete in the Monaghan/ Cavan league- where they are 4th behind Monaghan Town.Originally Posted by culloty82
If all the new clubs proved a success, then the ideal scenario would be two twelve-team divisions (Monaghan and Mayo?) After that, however, there are no obvious immediate candidates for expansion, so the third tier with reserve and LSL teams would serve more as a bridge between underage leagues and the First Division, rather than an A Championship Mark Two.
Monaghan United dropped out of the Ulster Senior League, and now compete in the Monaghan/ Cavan league- where they are 4th behind Monaghan Town.
Yeah, but, the Ulster Senior League is a joke too. I don't blame them for dropping out. Can't find a final table anywhere, but they really struggled in it last year too. It was said to have been them preparing to step back up to senior football again, but it just didn't happen in the end.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
Sad reality is the support just isn't there for it. Monaghan never had big crowds and having gone to college I'm Cavan the only two things people care about up there is GAA and Man United. LOI is like something from a different planet.
Cobh did through the A Championship. Unexpected situations can arise where clubs might need to drop to a third tier. Also if any club needs to reset, they should be rebooting so to speak in that third tier.
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
It's very difficult. I've not denied that, and I'm not arguing against that.
But in the medium-term, the LoI needs new clubs. To keep leaking clubs like we have been doing the past 20+ years is not sustainable. That's acknowledged by the desire to create a third tier. Yet here we are, a couple of months before it was due to be launched and we haven't a single team interested. It's too much of a risk, and the Tralee Dynamoes issue showed that most starkly.
Pretty much everywhere else in Europe, a pyramid system is used to find the best clubs and elevate them to the top, to allow clubs drop back down to a lower level, regroup and aim to get back to where they were. It helps push clubs to improve themselves to new levels, creates churn and competition, and creates more balanced divisions, and not the daft <Insert County Here> District League nonsense we have, a holdover from the 19th century. All of that is good and why it's a success. Heck, even the First Division is unhelpfully uncompetitive at times.
Clubs may still reject promotion - it happens in England - but so what? If they are denied promotion because they don't have the facilities, then it encourages them to improve their grounds, so we don't end up with a club whose main stand is some wooden pallets (Cabinteely). Clubs may still experience financial trouble, but it's far easier to drop one division than to drop out entirely and have no formal way back in unless, like Cobh, your face fits. And it avoids the farce of Waterford/Wexford going bust, writing off a load of debt, starting back at the same level and stealing an unfair competitive advantage on other clubs.
Your point on Government funding gets more daft every time you re-write it. Your original point was -
But now you think the FAI - not being able to achieve a pyramid because of its corporate structure - votes to go to Government and ask it to pressurise itself to put a system in place? Why on earth would an organisation being hindered in reform vote to ask Government to tie its hands so it can achieve this thing it doesn't want to achieve?This is where it's for the government to force the change that the FAI needs but can't itself implement.
And the Government withholding funding pending an investigation into obvious serious financial irregularities is completely different to the Government withholding funding because it wants, to quote you, "to force change".
So while it absolutely isn't easy to bring about, the pyramid is better than the current "Stick a pin in a map and hope for the best" routine. It has to be the medium-term goal for the FAI here (and it is, by the sounds of it, but they're getting kickback) The main arguments against it here (people watch rugby, the German fourth tier has clubs with 10k fans and 200 fans, the German fourth tier has trouble giving fair TV rights, Salthill and Mervue might get promoted, etc, etc) don't stack up.
I'm not claiming it's the solution to all our woes - I've said that repeatedly, but you do like putting words in people's mouths. But it's factually better than the current setup, as evidenced all around the continent, so it should be the aim here too.
Last edited by pineapple stu; 12/12/2022 at 8:41 AM.
There's only one way to settle this pyramid talk - a good aul fashioned poll.
Foot.ie is a democracy, right?
"Democracy is the first step to anarchy"
(A fun quote I heard from a guy trying to influence a group who wanted to vote out covid measures)
What are you talking about? You are really just using a lot of strawman arguments that nobody is making- hence this is just dragging on.
I dont think anybody is saying they are against a pyramid system either, just that it would not be their priority for Irish football right now. In fact, it was part of the FAI plans after the 3rd Tier being introduced.
Eh?
Those are the exact concerns which have been raised on thread. You raised the Mervue/Salthill issue here (even though a pyramid would have sorted that out quick enough, and possibly never given it a chance to happen in the first place), and also raised the concerns over how things have gone in Germany.
I'm not sure how you can say no-one is making the arguments at those links?
The starting point of all this was Buller saying "never have been a believer in the pyramid as a must had". He later says he's not completely against the idea in fairness. But should it be the priority for Irish football right now? Yes, I think it should be. Certainly up there with how to increase funding to the LoI and who should take over from Stephen Kenny.
You acknowledge that it's very difficult - and then launch into a lecture that has absolutely nothing to do with how the task will be achieved. So I'll ask yet again - in the real world of how the FAI is currently structured and operates, please can you clarify how a pyramid system will be achieved ? I've suggested a route to do it, but you're willfully misrepresenting it in an attempt to trash it (more on this below). Yet you still haven't explained to us how the pyramid you crave will be magicked into existence. So enough of the bluff and bluster yet again please - tell us how it will realistically happen. Not with regards why they do in Wales or Uzbekhistan - but within the constraints of the real world reality and structures of the FAI ?
You're obviously not a daft person, so I can only assume you're wilfully playing silly buggers with what I've written in ann attenpt to trash it. I'll therefore give you the benefit of the doubt that it IS driven by not grasping the point, and outline below an idiot's guide to how this sort of stuff happens in the real world :
1) The top suits who run the FAI decide that they need to change how football in Ireland works (particularly when, as you point out, they see everyone else using a different approach/system). But unlike yourself, they acknowledge that the FAI's own structures represent an impediment to that change. And they also acknowledge that they are unlikely to be able to get those structures reformed enough (or at least not in a hurry) to deliver the desired change. So they need to come up with a Plan B (i.e. the bit you lack).
2) They therefore have a chat with the Minister and department looking after sports - with the 2028 Euros being the perfect context in which to do that. They explain their view that a pyramid would make sense for Irish football, but highlight that they can't deliver it within their current structure.
3) Rather than everyone just shrug their shoulders and continue dreaming about change in the face of structural barriers to it, and not actually doing anything to deliver that desired change (a.k.a. The Pineapple Stu Technique), they discuss with the Minister/Department ways in which Irish football could be 'encouraged' to willingly change itself in-line with the analysis of the senior FAI officers, the reality of pyramids elewhere etc etc. And they come up with a way in whcih this can be done.
4) Presumably it will start with some form of external consultancy report/analysis into the Best Practise for how to run and organise Irish domestic football. That report would recommend various things - including a pyramid and a range of required investments (because that's how you utimately get reluctant interest groups on-board). So it will give both the FAI and the government something to say - 'Look - the experts and the way football is done elsewhere all says say we need to change how we do things in Ireland'.
5) The government responds by saying it will help the FAI deliver the conclusions of its report into reshaping Irish football in tune with Best Practice, through the release of additional funding. Because money is at the end of the day what clubs will listen to most - and therefore by-extension leagues and those who represent them. The FAI says that the package of necessary changes all have to be implemented as a whole, not cherry-picked. So the funding therefore becomes dependent upon universal implementation.
6) This 'carrot' of money plus government support wins over various clubs and some of the leagues. The pressure stars to build on the leagues that are reluctant, out of fear that they will lose out to other leagues which are supportive (especially in Dublin where there are so many feckin leagues). The usual leanning and cajoling and promising process that happens in the background of political organisatons like the FAI, and especially so in somewhere like Ireland
7) As the over-arching body for football in the State, the FAI is naturally the body responsible for delivering both that change and the funding involved.
8) UEFA don't have the silly meltdown you're claiming they would. Because they're not daft, and the FAI will have squared everything off with them in advance anyway. And because it doesn;t amount to 'political interference' anyway. It's just a government helping to fund the conlclusions of football's own report into hwo to improve itself.
This is how in the real world difficult shizz gets done. The whole process could obviously start with the FAI just commisioning a study BEFORE they speak to the givernment of course. I just thrink they'd be wiser to ensure that the goverment is on-board with the whole plan from the start - otherwise it would be still-born without the funding injection.
So what's your proposed solution to delivering the pyramid ? Let's hear it.
More verbiage. Still no proposed way to achieve the pyramid you crave. How is it going to be delivered in the face of a reluctant FAI structure ? Please either tell us that or stop wanging on about what is otherwise just a pointless daydream.
Last edited by EatYerGreens; 12/12/2022 at 4:59 PM.
Do all district leagues in Munster have a seat on the Munster FA? Does the same apply for Leinster, Connacht and Ulster?
https://foot.ie/forums/117-Kerry-FC
A Championship: 4 years - 8 first teams - 0 financially ruined. First Division '14: 7 first teams.
Opportunity lost for new clubs/regions to join the LoI family.
If (and that's a very big If) the third tier is greenlit for 2024, CK United plan to be involved in that inaugural season:
CK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War!
I think the chairman seems a bit naive when it comes to sponsorship if he thinks just calling the club CK United will overcome any issues businesses have with sponsoring a club in another county. Also I'm pretty sure everyone thinks of Shamrock Rovers as a Dublin club. Amongst other things.
Last edited by Longfordian; 13/12/2022 at 2:59 PM.
Upwards to the vanguard where the pressure is too high.
Not alone are we thought of as a Dublin club i would say a South Dublin club
It sounds like Calvin Klein's sportswear sub-brand.CK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War!
Bit weird they'd be looking for a stand, or land anywhere, when Buckley Park is lying there unused.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
CSKA KilkennyCK United looks and sounds like one those clubs from the former Soviet Eastern Bloc during the Cold War!
This completely understands demographics*.
NI is heavily urbanised East of the Bann, much less so to the West. Which is not unlike ROI, where the East/South is heavily urbanised, but the West/North much less so.
E.G. in ROI the Border Counties (Cavan, Donegal, Leitrim, Monaghan, Sligo), Western counties (Galway, Mayo, Roscommon) and Midland counties (Laois, Longford, Offaly, Westmeath) comprise 12 counties with only 1.14 million inhabitants, spread over half(?) the total area. Meaning the other 14 counties have 3.62 million inhabitants (2016 stats):
https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpub...reland2017/nt/
Indeed Dublin and the Mid East counties of Kildare, Louth, Meath, Wicklow have over 2 m. people i.e. more than all of NI, but in an area approx. half the size of NI i.e. v.heavily urbanised.
Or look at it another way, ROI has 22 towns/cities with a population over 20k, comprising 2.28m people, whereas NI has 13 such towns/cities, comprising 870k (incl. Derry!)
In short, ROI has far more people living in urban areas than NI, no matter how you count it. The fact that it also has a large area to the North/West which is sparsely populated, and where GAA reigns, does not change this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population
* - People often think of Australia as having very low population density. Whereas the great bulk (90%?) of its 24m population lives in a relatively small number of towns/cities on the East Coast or Perth/WA, leaving 90% of the country virtually empty. Meaning the Australian population is actually extremely urbanised.
This is also misleading, in two respects.
First, a pyramid is about more than just the top 3 tiers. So if you go down through the Intermediate and Junior tiers, you'll see that they include clubs from every section and area of NI. E.G. the Fermanagh & Western FA operates in a very rural, Nationalist majority area. Yet it still comprises 32 separate clubs in 3 divisions, plus 3 reserve divisions, plus youth, women and girls leagues etc. There is actually more Nationalist participation than Unionist, including GAA players who play both codes; also players from across the border.
Or, if you take eg schools competitions, the MacRory Cup is the premier GAA schools competition in Ulster. In 2022 it had 16 entrants, two of them from ROI and all Catholic Maintained Grammars. Similarly, the Ulster Rugby Schools Cup had 20 entrants, all Controlled (i.e. Protestant or Mixed) schools, very predominantly Grammar. Whereas the football equivlent, NISFA Schools Cup, each year has over 120 entrants, from all over NI, city and country, and including Controlled, Maintained, Integrated, Grammar, Comprehensive and even Gaelic language!
The second respect is that football is not just defined by the crowds* that the Senior clubs attract. It also includes players, managers, referees, administrators and volunteers, also sponsors and advertisers etc
Just look at the team sheets from this match between Institute, the "other" team in Derry (originally called the Presbyterian Institute, and currently playing in the Brandywell), and Ballinamallard, a small Protestant village in otherwise Nationalist majority Fermanagh:
Institute: John Connolly, Jay Riley, Shaun Leppard, Rhys McDermott, Conor Quigley; Aidan McCauley, Mark McFadden, Liam Walsh (Cormac Burke 80); Ian Parkhill, Caolan McLaughlin (Gareth Brown 36), Brendan McLaughlin.
Ballinamallard United: Rory Brown, Dean Curry, Mark Stafford, Richard Clarke (Ronan McKinley 84), Aaron Arkinson, Evan Tweed (Christopher Kelly 31), BJ Banda, Joshua McIlwaine, Darragh Byrne, Reece Byrne (Callum Moorehead 84), Sean McEvoy (Patrick Ferry HT).
Referee: Mr Shane McGonigle
Obviously you can't always go by names, bit it is clear that the big majority of those are from the Nationalist community, incl. a number who are from ROI!
Or take Managers: Coleraine and Larne, for example, are both strongly Unionist towns, but are managed by Oran Kearney and Tiernan Lynch. While the NI Football League's Chief Executive, their first ever, is Gerard Lawlor (ex Cliftonville), while Linfield's General Manager is Dubliner Pat Fenlon.
But in any case, even if you were correct - and you're not - in characterising Football in NI as being a Unionist/Prod sport, pretty much only played in urban areas, then you might conclude that the real "football population" of NI is barely 1 million i.e. 20% of that of ROI, rather than 40%. Yet we can still maintain a healthy pyramid, making it even less explicable why ROI cannot.
* - Note, too, that 20% of admission prices in NI are lost to VAT, unlike in ROI. Were NI clubs able to keep that, they could reduce prices to attract more fans and/or invest it in better facilities etc.
OK, I'll happily accept "pushed out" or whatever term you prefer, since it doesn't change my point. Which was that DCFC's permanent switch to the LOI was a huge loss to NI football, but we've withstood it. Whereas Cork being relegated to the First Division for a period is nothing like eg their leaving the LOI to play in another country entirely.
Let's overlook for the moment the fact that Larne are currently 8 points clear at the top of the table with half the season played, the whole point of the pyramid is that it has successfully encouraged and facilitated new clubs from new areas of NI which never had Intermediate, never mind Senior, clubs before, while providing healthy competition via Promotion & Relegation, as individual clubs progressed or declined. Consequently the "attrition" rate of NI clubs going bust, before having to reform, or even disappearing entirely, is rather less than that in ROI.
P.S. I don't say any of that in order to "big up" the IL, never mind "do down" the LOI - the LOI has also many strengths from which the IL could learn. But the example of the IFA/IL in introducing, expanding and upgrading the pyramid over 20-odd years has undoubtedly been of great benefit in raising standards in the game in NI. And imo, were the FAI/LOI to do the same, it should prove equally beneficial south of the border.
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