Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EatYerGreens]

How to build a pyramid?

Even the Ancient Egyptians new 3,000 years ago that you start at the bottom and build up.

In ROI's case that means starting with Junior clubs and rationalising the setup by introducing local leagues with broadly comparable standards.

Then when you've got that sorted, you add a regionalised, Intermediate set-up at the next level up (mitigates the travel problem).

With each step upwards, you progressively increase the requirements to get the appropriate Licence - stadium, finances, facilities, qualified staff etc.

Eventually you get to the stage whereby the step-up to a 3rd tier, and from there to the FD, and then PD, is not so steep and unrealistic as to be completely prohibitive.

Of course such a process could never be achieved overnight, but that just means there is time to address the major issues such as Prize money, and of course, the seasonal imbalance.

All of which takes long term vision, commitment and resourcing from all the different stakeholders who control the game. Which means starting sooner rather than later.

Of course you may consider that this is unachievable (though I really do wonder how comparable countries like Iceland, Finland, Albania, Wales and NI have managed it).

Either way, the FAI's current proposal to start with a third tier (the subject of this thread, remember), must surely be doomed to failure - it's that building from the top down thing again.

On which point, if you agree that that cannot work, but also don't believe that my suggestion could be made to work, then instead of having a pop at me - again - then why not answer the questions I posed to you in my last post, namely:

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

With respect, all that this tells us is that you genunely don't understand the realities within football south of the border. Maybe send the above to the FAi along with an invoice for the consultancy work?

[EatYerGreens]

You'd wonder if Warrenpoint will possibly look towards the LOI, if rules permit, and they seek UEFA permission, since they're being pushed out of the senior Irish League ranks.

No chance. Newry didn't when they were in a similar(ish) posiiton, and the rules won't allow it anyway.

A bigger potential challenge coming down the line for football in that corner of South Down is the fact that Rathfrailand are in for the play-offs for promotion to the Irish League 3rd/intermediate tier. They're located 11 miles from Warrenpoint and 12miles from Newry City FC, in a very small triangle to the east of Newry town. In case anyone thinks this sounds a wee bit like Galway, Mervue and Salthill, it would arguably be worse than that - because whilst these clubs are located a bit further apart, Newry has a population of only 30,000, so is less than half the size of Galway. Someone told me that the fortunes of Newry and Warrenpoint tend to see-saw between themselves as it is (i.e. when one does well the other less so, because they're competing for a small pool of players). If a third 'high-level' club was added to that it could make all of them worse by spreading the resources too thinly. Will be interesting to see what happens.

[pineapple stu]

But how else would a team from Kerry enter League of Ireland when no structure is in place to enable them to do so?

Well, true - but this is what we need to develop though.

I suppose you're right - the pyramid should, in theory, show which clubs are serious about being a LoI club. If for example Crumlin United kept winning the Leinster Senior League but made no effort to improve their ground so were kept on being refused LoI status it could create a bit of a log jam of teams behind them - but ideally the scenario would be that players would leave Crumlin as they'd like to earn more by playing LoI (in practice at the moment that's not the case).

The Crumlin example is probably quite likely alright - but you could mitigate that to an extent by allowing promotion to the highest-placed team with a licence (within reason - top 3 in a 12-team league or something)

Funding the LoI better would also help sort the problem - but then funding the LoI better would help sort lots of problems, and it's not something the FAI have been overly bothered with down the years, sadly. And who knows when they'll get around to it with their finances the way they are.

[EatYerGreens]

Funding the LoI better would also help sort the problem - but then funding the LoI better would help sort lots of problems, and it's not something the FAI have been overly bothered with down the years, sadly. And who knows when they'll get around to it with their finances the way they are.

I would say that a better-funded LOI structure would be an essential pre-requisite to the introduction of any pyramid.

As has been rehearsed ad nauseum on here by myself and others, the finances of joining the LOI FD largely don't stack up at the moment. If that isn't addressed the risk with a pyramid would be either clubs passing up on the opportunity to be promoted (thereby making a bit of a mockery of the structure) or clubs taking the step up and gettting their fingers burned as a result. So to give a pyramid the best chance of success the financial appeal/viability of the senior game should be addressed in tandem.

[yurt]

I skipped through most of the posts in this thread so sorry if this has been discussed but how many junior leagues are already running on a summer calendar? I seem to remember the Mayo league being one.

I'm sure it's been discussed at length but to me the problem is clearly that 99% of clubs in the country are continuing to play winter football. It makes no sense that we are sending out people of all ages to play in the wind and the rain is muck patches across the country. If the FAI can find a way to convince junior leagues to move to a summer calendar all these issues around which clubs or regional sides can join senior football would begin to figure itself out naturally.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new FAI are at least trying to fix the right issues so hopefully this is something which we will see some progress on over the coming seasons.

[Buller]

I skipped through most of the posts in this thread so sorry if this has been discussed but how many junior leagues are already running on a summer calendar? I seem to remember the Mayo league being one.

I'm sure it's been discussed at length but to me the problem is clearly that 99% of clubs in the country are continuing to play winter football. It makes no sense that we are sending out people of all ages to play in the wind and the rain is muck patches across the country. If the FAI can find a way to convince junior leagues to move to a summer calendar all these issues around which clubs or regional sides can join senior football would begin to figure itself out naturally.

I'm cautiously optimistic that the new FAI are at least trying to fix the right issues so hopefully this is something which we will see some progress on over the coming seasons.

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined.

[Burnsie]

I mean, if you're talking about merging leagues, you could start in Leinster - a very small administrative area (in international terms) which has - and I'm not making this up - at least seventeen different league systems within it (albeit a handful of them are underage).

[Buller]

I mean, if you're talking about merging leagues, you could start in Leinster - a very small administrative area (in international terms) which has - and I'm not making this up - at least seventeen different league systems within it (albeit a handful of them are underage).

Oh I know that; there'll always be local leagues. But its a shame there's no Connaught-wide top tier league in the region like there is in Leinster.

[JC_GUFC]

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined.

Funny you should say this because Ballinasloe don't play in the Galway & District League - they play in Roscommon!

When Salthill & Mervue left the League of Ireland the talk was they'd join a revived Connacht Senior League but for whatever reason there wasn't enough interest to make that happen.

There are plenty of clubs you'd think should have been interested such as Castlebar and Westport in Mayo, Boyle Celtic in Roscommon, Manor Rangers from Leitrim, a few Sligo clubs. Costs would go up but teams would also be playing at a higher standard.

Maybe there were other issues around the realigning of seasons or something but it didn't seem to get off the ground at all - there could also be a lack of footballing political will for this to happen.

[legendz]

Interesting. Is there are reason Galway and Mayo leagues exist separately? Would make sense for there to be a Connaught League - Castlebar/Westport 1hr-1.5hr drives from Galway City / Loughrea / Ballinasloe. Madness they're not combined.

Limerick and Tipperary have two district leagues. Why would Mayo join Galway? Mayo League have entered the League Cup previously. Castlebar were in the A Championship. Mayo were in the U14 league last year. Mayo will probably follow Kerry's path in the next few years.
The first step in building any pyramid will be to have a number of district leagues offering promotion to a regional league.
The last time this thread was in full swing I was suggesting a dual pyramid. District leagues offering promotion to regional leagues. The LoI and third tier being for those who apply for an elite licence. Part of the elite licence criteria being participation in the youth leagues.

[culloty82]

You don't even need to call that a dual pyramid - once the third tier is established, set out a five-year plan for reforming intermediate leagues at provincial level, moving to a summer calendar and linking into the junior leagues, all the while agreeing entry criteria similar to the senior Club Manual, but obviously not as onerous in Tier 4.

[EatYerGreens]

You don't even need to call that a dual pyramid - once the third tier is established, set out a five-year plan for reforming intermediate leagues at provincial level, moving to a summer calendar and linking into the junior leagues, all the while agreeing entry criteria similar to the senior Club Manual, but obviously not as onerous in Tier 4.

The problem is the inertia and politics in the game below senior level, combined with the fact the FAi has even less influence amongst those ranks now than it did under Delaney (who had bought them all off).

I suspect that the way to whip everyone into shape/get them onboard will be funding grants. More money for Irsih football's lower levels to help them cope wiht the desired transition.

Otherwise, why will they willingly change ? They don;t currently value the LOI, so see no need for a route up through the levels to get into it. There needs to be a whole culture and power shift within the game.

[EalingGreen]

With respect, all that this tells us is that you genunely don't understand the realities within football south of the border. Maybe send the above to the FAi along with an invoice for the consultancy work?

If you really meant "respect" - and nothing in your posts has ever indicated that you do - then rather than sniping from the touchlines, you'd amswer my simple question, namely:

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

[EatYerGreens]

If you really meant "respect" - and nothing in your posts has ever indicated that you do - then rather than sniping from the touchlines, you'd amswer my simple question, namely:

Stop swinging your handbag love. You'll do yourself an injury.

"Do you have your own solution to all this?

Or maybe you don't feel the need for a solution, since you don't consider this to be a problem in the first place?"

Firstly - I'm not the one demanding the change, so I don't have to come up with a solution. And I note that you have failed repeatedly when challenged to outline how the issues in Irish football that make the switch to a pyramid difficult to achieve can be overcome. But sure, you just demand a different standard from everyone else

As it happens - I do have a solution to introducing a pyramid. Or more correctly, to unlocking rhe various barriers that currently prevent it. I outlined it in some detail on here months ago. The solution is essentially money. Using funding to restructure the game at all levels by cajoling the junior and intermediate leagues into what the FAI wants them to do in order to get the grants. Money that will inevitably have to come from the government (as the FAI is still largely skint).

You should be well aware of this proposal btw - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).

So there's you're answer. And it's one you've already had from me for at least 6mths now (pay atention at the back please!)..

So what is your solution to unlocking the barriers within Irish football that currently prevent the changes required to introduce a pyramid ?

[legendz]

The problem is the inertia and politics in the game below senior level, combined with the fact the FAi has even less influence amongst those ranks now than it did under Delaney (who had bought them all off).

A third tier is one way to circumvent those politics. The Ireland u17s had a great results last evening. Many of the players being part of LoI academies. Brexit seeing young players stay in Ireland for longer. The national youth leagues becoming established in recent years.
How many families have a kid in an LoI club's academy. That is building a connection.
Some people go on about Kerry support dwindling away. Time will tell. Many families have had someone playing for Kerry in the youth leagues since 2016. There is an appreciation of the level and no expectation of overnight success. That is support on a solid enough foundation.
Ireland u17s are an endorsement of the youth league structure. The glaring piece missing in the current LoI puzzle is that tier between u19 and the LoI. The third tier should be a natural progression from U19s without being obligatory for clubs. It might suit the likes of Shamrock Rovers. There wouldn't be many First Division clubs if any fielding a second team.

[EalingGreen]

Stop swinging your handbag love. You'll do yourself an injury.

Pathetic.

Firstly - I'm not the one demanding the change, so I don't have to come up with a solution. And I note that you have failed repeatedly when challenged to outline how the issues in Irish football that make the switch to a pyramid difficult to achieve can be overcome. But sure, you just demand a different standard from everyone else

I'm not "demanding" change either, merely pointing out that if it is required to expand the Senior club game in ROI, the obvious mechanism to do so is via a pyramid, as adopted in just about every other country. And you build a pyramid from the bottom up, not the top down. Which is why inserting some sort of 3rd tier in isolation seems doomed to failure.
As for how I think it might be done, see my post #976 (I know you read it because you replied to it - #981)

You should be well aware of this proposal [of mine to introduce a pyramid btw] - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).

Aiui, political interference is only a problem if the Association in question objects to it. And such interference occurs, and is accepted, all the time - eg IFA reforming its Board and governance structures at the behest of the Minister/Sports Council, or the English FA accepting a Regulator. Such interference will most often be accepted (ahem) when an Association is skint and requires a financial bail-out.
Oh, and this is a FIFA matter, not a UEFA one.

So what is your solution to unlocking the barriers within Irish football that currently prevent the changes required to introduce a pyramid ?

How curious that you have a habit of referring back to posts you claim others make, though without actual quotations, yet ignore the answers which are right in front of you, in this case #976.

[Shinkicker]

No chance. Newry didn't when they were in a similar(ish) posiiton, and the rules won't allow it anyway.

A bigger potential challenge coming down the line for football in that corner of South Down is the fact that Rathfrailand are in for the play-offs for promotion to the Irish League 3rd/intermediate tier. They're located 11 miles from Warrenpoint and 12miles from Newry City FC, in a very small triangle to the east of Newry town. In case anyone thinks this sounds a wee bit like Galway, Mervue and Salthill, it would arguably be worse than that - because whilst these clubs are located a bit further apart, Newry has a population of only 30,000, so is less than half the size of Galway. Someone told me that the fortunes of Newry and Warrenpoint tend to see-saw between themselves as it is (i.e. when one does well the other less so, because they're competing for a small pool of players). If a third 'high-level' club was added to that it could make all of them worse by spreading the resources too thinly. Will be interesting to see what happens.

Rathfriland won't have a major impact on Warrenpoint or Newry. It may be 11 or 22 miles away but it's very remote. On amateur league match day its almost impossible to get parked (this includes players) the local recycling center (next door) gets blocked and if its busy the access road is totally blocked is total mayhem. The locals give out like fcku.

[EalingGreen]

You should be well aware of [my proposal for introducing a pyramid] btw - because you scoffed at it on here when I raised it previously (with the nonesense claim that UEFA would reject it as political interference).

I must confess that I was baffled when I read that, since it is at odds with my understanding of how this works. So I did a search back through the thread and found that it was another poster entirely who had made this case (see post #'s 608 & 614).

By contrast, this is what I posted on the topic (#665):
FIFA only prohibits unwanted political interference/instruction in football. In other words, FIFA will not object so long as the Association in question accepts the intervention/instruction, even if that "acceptance" is only on pain of getting government funding cut off if it doesn't.
(And once again, I would point out that the suspension or expulsion of a Member Association is not a delegated matter for individual Confederations either, i.e. it is for FIFA to decide, not UEFA)

Indeed there have been a couple of other instances previously when you have attributed something to me - without an actual link, of course - which I did not recognise, but I couldn't be arsed to trawl back through the relevant thread. So I'll be charitable and assume that rather than making things up, it may just be that your memory is faulty - God knows, you have spats with so many posters on here that it must be hard for you to keep up.

[JC_GUFC]

https://westernpeople.ie/2023/05/25/...lopment-squad/


Interesting story coming from Mayo that they’re putting together an u21 Development squad that will play against some LoI clubs.

Surely this is fairly obvious step towards creating a side that will compete in a third tier.

Also I see a few soundings again, this time from Declan Devine, about having u21 teams for LoI clubs.

[EalingGreen]

Surely this is fairly obvious step towards creating a side that will compete in a third tier.

Compete against whom?