Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[pineapple stu]

Beyond them, when was the last time a non-UCD university side played in the FAI Cup ?

UCC were in it in 2015. Trinity qualified in the mid-90s and again in the mid-00s I think. UCD's second string qualified in 2009 (and were promptly banned from entering again)

[2 Year Contract]

UCC were in it in 2015. Trinity qualified in the mid-90s and again in the mid-00s I think. UCD's second string qualified in 2009 (and were promptly banned from entering again)

UCC were in the qualifying round of the 2019 FAI Cup also but lost to Malahide. They competed in the league cup too as recently as 2020

[legendz]

I think you've ignored this several times now, but will attempt again. Cavan/Monaghan won't ever be a senior LOI entity. They're whipping boys in the underage leagues, they struggle to get players, referees, pitches, and much in the way of financial support or even anyone watching their games. I'm surprised they're still in the underage leagues at all with Monaghan United now back playing intermediate football and running their own underage setup again, seemingly pushing back towards LOI themselves long term.

Are Monaghan United likely to step into the underage leagues in place of Cavan Monaghan?

[Nah Nah Nah Nah]

Don't IT Sligo have some Sligo Rovers players on scholarship already ?

They do

[EalingGreen]

I can't get my head around how junior and intermediate football works here. In England, Junior means under-age and intermediate means the middle level between totally amateur and properly senior. So one is basically kids/U21s and the other are clubs midway to having aspirations. Whereas here I honestly can't tell the difference between Junior and Intermediate level. Both seem to play adults and move in the same circles

Is the Irish model more about who organises the leagues than it is who plays in them ?

I think you are confusing "Junior" with Youth (or Schools).

In NI and Scotland for example, Junior Football refers to the lowest level of Adult football, with teams generally being amateur (though maybe basic expenses or the odd signing-on fee etc at leading clubs).

Intermediate football is the next adult level up in the pyramid, with clubs often offering "generous" expenses, plus other remuneration, sometimes close to semi-pro level.

While Senior football is the highest adult level (obv) and either semi- or fully- professional.

In both countries, this set-up allows for additional football eg leagues catering for Reserve teams, U-23 or U-19 etc.

[legendz]

To be fair, it's not just Monaghan. Derry reserves are in USL too.
The Ulster SL couldn't really cover all of Ulster, given Cavan/Monaghan league is very small. Donegal and Inishowen are two separate football jurisdictions as well in junior circles.

Given two from Donegal, one from Inishowen, Derry/Harps reserves and Monaghan, it's about as broad as USL could be. The progressive path for intermediate football would be to invite Connaught to form a North-West intermediate league.

A Connaught -Ulster intermediate league would be sensible.
Leinster arguably could have separate north and south leagues but if they are content with one league, so be it
The Munster senior league as mentioned is a Cork league. A separate South Intermediate League might have to be formed for the remaining 5 counties. The Clare League, Tipperary North, Tipperary South, 2 Limerick district leagues, Kerry and Waterford could form a Southern Football Council to oversee the league. (West Waterford are tied in with East Cork.)
Is there currently a senior league club being held back from joining the League of Ireland?
There is merit in district leagues linking with intermediate leagues. For the finances required in obtaining a LoI license, there is arguably a place for an intermediary league between LoI and the intermediate leagues.

[sadloserkid]

A Connaught -Ulster intermediate league would be sensible.

Would it though? Is it sensible for some team from Castleblayney or Clones or heaven forbid Emyvale to be potentially trekking across to Clifden or somewhere like that to play amateur ball. They'd probably drive their base in Ulster, through a good chunk of Leinster (could take a break in Athlone) to get to Connacht.

Obviously any regionalised league will have boundary issues but if your Super Premier Senior Leagues were pressed into action I'd suggest Monaghan and Cavan would be better accomodated in the Leinster section and if you want to try and stitch some Donegal/Connacht creation together that might make marginally more sense.

[legendz]

Would it though? Is it sensible for some team from Castleblayney or Clones or heaven forbid Emyvale to be potentially trekking across to Clifden or somewhere like that to play amateur ball. They'd probably drive their base in Ulster, through a good chunk of Leinster (could take a break in Athlone) to get to Connacht.

Obviously any regionalised league will have boundary issues but if your Super Premier Senior Leagues were pressed into action I'd suggest Monaghan and Cavan would be better accomodated in the Leinster section and if you want to try and stitch some Donegal/Connacht creation together that might make marginally more sense.

Valid points. North Donegal to South Galway is a long trip as well. The influence behind the Ulster and Connaught partnership discussion is because Ulster just about has a senior league and Connaught has none. Connaught has 4 district leagues and Ulster has 3 district leagues. It would seem a reasonable number of district leagues to feed into one intermediate league. Some distances as you say aren't ideal however.

[EatYerGreens]

A Connaught -Ulster intermediate league would be sensible.

Sensible only on paper though. The distances and journey times would be harsh for clubs involved e.g. Letterkenny to Galway is 250km and takes up to 3 and a half hours.

[nigel-harps1954]

If a club has ambition to step up the leagues, they'll have to travel. Once they get into the First Division or Premier they'll have to travel the length of the country.

A journey from the likes of Letterkenny to Galway shouldn't be a deciding factor against any league structure.

[EatYerGreens]

If a club has ambition to step up the leagues, they'll have to travel. Once they get into the First Division or Premier they'll have to travel the length of the country.

A journey from the likes of Letterkenny to Galway shouldn't be a deciding factor against any league structure.

But we're not talking about clubs in the top 2 tiers. We're talking about the suggestion of a Connacht-Ulster amateur league. It's hardly unfair to factor in the cost and impact of travel distances on such leagues and their teams of very part-time players with extremely limited finances.

[pineapple stu]

A division restricted to around one-third of the country seems reasonable for a third tier (if the MSL/LSL and this were to be third tiers)

It'd make the step up to a national second tier easier than jumping up from a county league, which I think was Nigel's point

[nigel-harps1954]

But we're not talking about clubs in the top 2 tiers. We're talking about the suggestion of a Connacht-Ulster amateur league. It's hardly unfair to factor in the cost and impact of travel distances on such leagues and their teams of very part-time players with extremely limited finances.

That doesn't really sound much like progression for me, in that case. I don't think labelling it an amateur league does much service to the suggestion of a third tier either. Most intermediate sides are already paying their players.

A division restricted to around one-third of the country seems reasonable for a third tier (if the MSL/LSL and this were to be third tiers)

It'd make the step up to a national second tier easier than jumping up from a county league, which I think was Nigel's point

Precisely the point. Going from local junior league, to regional intermediate, to national first division would be logical progression.

[EatYerGreens]

That doesn't really sound much like progression for me, in that case. I don't think labelling it an amateur league does much service to the suggestion of a third tier either. Most intermediate sides are already paying their players.



Precisely the point. Going from local junior league, to regional intermediate, to national first division would be logical progression.

A Connacht-Ulster league isn't going to happen though - no matter at what tier - and is just more Fantasy League stuff.

[legendz]

A Connacht-Ulster league isn't going to happen though - no matter at what tier - and is just more Fantasy League stuff.

Is the glass half full or half empty? Is the suggestion fantasy or achievable?
What's the alternative route that you might suggest for district leagues offering promotion to an intermediate league?

[nigel-harps1954]

A Connacht-Ulster league isn't going to happen though - no matter at what tier - and is just more Fantasy League stuff.

You could say the same about 95% of the suggestions on this thread though, what's one more to the equation?

To be fair though, Sligo Rovers had applied to join USL a number of years ago and the move was blocked when chat of a Connaught version reared it's head, if I remember correctly. Revisiting that idea might pave the way for a few more Connaught based sides.

The other alternative is to try and entice teams across the border to join. Belfast Celtic also applied to join a few years ago before joining the NIFL system.

[legendz]

If something of a pyramid is built from district leagues to intermediate leagues, there should at least be two intermediate tiers.
3 Ulster district leagues linked to one intermediate league. 4 Connacht district leagues linked to one intermediate league. These two intermediate leagues then linked to one higher tier intermediate league.
In Munster then, Clare, 2 Limerick district leagues and Kerry league linked to one intermediate league. 2 Tipperary district leagues and 2 Waterford district leagues linked to one intermediate league. These two intermediate leagues then linked to one higher tier intermediate league.
Now Ulster only has something like 7 clubs in the USL? The appetite for district league clubs joining intermediate provincial leagues seems low. The above is merely a suggested route for building something of a pyramid system. The glass is definitely empty at this time.

[EalingGreen]

The other alternative is to try and entice teams across the border to join.

Nigel, I always enjoy your posts, reasoned and reasonable, informed and informative.

But never mind that that suggestion is not gpoing to happen - indeed could never happen under UEFA Rules - but it is actually somewhat offensive.

I mean, how would you feel if the NIFL attempted to "entice" some of your clubs from eg Louth, Monaghan or Donegal?

What right do you imagine the LOI/ FAI has to just pick and choose clubs from another Association's jurisdiction?

Belfast Celtic also applied to join a few years ago before joining the NIFL system.

Correction: "Belfast Celtic FC 1978", formerly known as Sport and Leisure Swifts FC, applied to join the Ulster Senior League in 2019, having been members of the NIFL system since their original inception, 41 years previously.

And that suggestion was "laughed out of court" - pretty appropriate for a joke of a club. Though the true inheritors of the original Belfast Celtic were not at all pleased at this mob appropriating the famous name, except there wasn't anything in the IFA's rulebook to prevent it.

And as a spokesman for the Belfast Celtic Society noted:
“Our Society notes the decision of Sport and Leisure Swifts FC to change their name. We would reiterate our Society has no part in this decision and will have no involvement with Sport and Leisure FC going forward.”
Indeed the BCS refused even to meet Sport and Leisure, so annoyed were they with their presumption.

Meanwhile, the 1978 version of "Belfast Celtic FC" currently play in the Ballymena & Provincial District Leage, one of four divisions making up the fourth tier of the NI pyramid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belfas....C._%281978%29

[culloty82]

Of course, it could also be argued that Donegal Celtic are the sporting inheritors of the club, but ironucally, they now find themselves in the same division as the ersatz club.

[nigel-harps1954]

Nigel, I always enjoy your posts, reasoned and reasonable, informed and informative.

But never mind that that suggestion is not gpoing to happen - indeed could never happen under UEFA Rules - but it is actually somewhat offensive.

I mean, how would you feel if the NIFL attempted to "entice" some of your clubs from eg Louth, Monaghan or Donegal?

What right do you imagine the LOI/ FAI has to just pick and choose clubs from another Association's jurisdiction?

I would say apologies if it's deemed offensive. West side of N.Ire is fairly poorly represented within NIFL structures though. I'm simply suggesting those who share the viewpoint "nothing west of the Bann" may perhaps fancy their chances in an Ulster Senior League setup.

I could be wide of the mark, and living in fantasy land, but North-West of Ireland cross border intermediate cup this year was fairly successful and perhaps a blueprint for something bigger in future.