Third Tier Talk - A Championship Mk II

[EalingGreen]

I'm not sure this is true tbh. You only need to look at the many clubs that have dropped out of the league to see it.

Can you give examples of clubs where the FAI has been under enormous presure to keep them going, and has acted as a result? Beyond stepping in to save the stadium for future football use, the FAI seems generally happy to NOT bail out LOI clbs. There are plenty of examples where it has watched as clubs have gone bankrupt (even big ones like Cork).

Fair enough, badly expressed on my part.

What I was referring to was an attitude at the FAI of:
1. "Let's just get new clubs in", without asking too many questions about the owners, or their business plan etc;
2. Then don't ask too many questions eg if it appears they're spending money that they don't actually have;
3. Where possible, bail them out by buying the ground, as you say. Of course, not every (many?) LOI clubs actually own their ground, but where this does happen, the FAI must be reluctant to charge a full and fair market rent, which further absolves the tenant club from operating responsibly. (The FAI aren't likely to evict them, are they?);
4. And if a club goes bust anyway, dont ask too many questions about the Phoenix Club which takes their place.

This doesn't do anything for "moral hazard" (correct term?), which itself explains why such a high percentage of clubs have gone bust over the years.

Whereas if there was a proper pyramid, struggling clubs be more likely to rein in their spending earlier, since they know there is a lower tier to "cushion their landing". (Bangor FC found mid-season they couldn't compete financially in the IL top tier, but voluntarily withdrew to the third tier at the end of the season, after having fulfilled all their fixtures).

While clubs which still ignore all this and fail can more easily be replaced, thereby reducing the pressure ("desperation") on the FAI to allow a Phoenix Club back in, and at a level (2nd tier) which may be too much for them.

[sullanefc]

Nope! During United's absence Salthill & Mervue were the only show in town. I recall United briefly fielding an underage squad that seriously flopped. Salthill briefly rebranded as SD Galway in an attempt to win former United fans, that also failed miserably.

My father, from rural Galway, worked in Mervue at the time. He recalls a friend telling him he should obviously start supporting Mervue now. He told him he'd rather watch his local junior club in the third tier of the Galway district league, his friend was quite bemused at that statement but I think it speaks to why clubs like Kerry FC have a chance.

I lost interest in the LOI and football in general during that whole ****show. I only came back to it during covid. I suppose it would have been avoided if Mervue & Salthill were relegated like they should have been, but a lot of people in Galway are still skeptical of a pyramid for this very reason. For them, Galway United is essentially the county board. I think there should be room for counties that want to all row in behind the one club and towns that want to go it alone.

This, for me anyway, is why I'm not sold/all in on the pyramid model. What happened in Galway was a farce. I'm not 100% pro franchise model either, (hello Dublin City). I was disappointed that Kildare County didn't work out, but look, we learn from mistakes, and it seems Kerry FC are doing things the right way so far.

They are not really Tralee Dynamos in disguise a la Newbridge/Kildare. They have been running underage for years now, with (what seems like) buy in from around the Kerry league. I hope it works out for them. As a Cork City fan living in Kerry, I intend to buy a season ticket and attend as many games in Tralee as I can and whenever I can't get to Turners Cross.

[Nesta99]

I think in a pyramid system, what happened in Galway at that time would be the exception rather than the rule. Very small clubs can have a good run over a couple of years with promotion but rarely is it consolidated and sustained. Whatever about the payday that would bring about in other leagues there isnt the money in LoI to keep a team together, strengthen etc. without decent commercial activity like ticket sales they would fall away. Its worth it though, if 2 teams from the same catchment end in the same league on merit so be it, to have a proper structure has more benefits than the occasional possibility of a Mervue and Salthill situation. There is also the chance that the story of a small club climbing the ranks would be embraced in a pyramid structure. The real problem with 2 or 3 Galway clubs in LoI at that time was that it made no sense to parachute the clubs in to a closed off senior league or that applications were made most based on local one-upmanship.

[pineapple stu]

I think in a pyramid system, what happened in Galway at that time would be the exception rather than the rule. Very small clubs can have a good run over a couple of years with promotion but rarely is it consolidated and sustained.

Yeah, I can't understand how people still go on about the Galway happenings as an argument against a pyramid, while completely ignoring that Salthill/Mervue would have been relegated every year of their LoI existence with a proper pyramid, and probably wouldn't have reached the third tier in the first place.

If anything, what happened is an argument to get rid of the application process for new clubs - which is basically "ask nicely and we'll let you in" - and replace it with something like, say, a pyramid

[legendz]

The Galway example is used because there is a fear of a repeat of too many clubs for an area. We know the areas without LoI representation. 5 of these have joined the youth leagues.
Areas without LoI representation, not listing Youth League clubs:
Fingal County (Shelbourne declined an opportunity to move. Fair enough if that's not where they want to represent.)
Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown (Yes, I'm excluding UCD.)
Laois (Laois Offaly might follow the example of Carlow Kilkenny?)
Offaly (Laois Offaly as mentioned above.)
Meath (Listed but represented by Drogheda??)
Tipperary (North Tipperary can lean towards Treaty. The south by Waterford?)
Clare (Listed but Treaty United are there for the Mid West)
Roscommon (Represented by Sligo Rovers to the north and Athlone to the south?)
Leitrim (Listed but Sligo Rovers are in the Sligo Leitrim District region.)

[nigel-harps1954]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.

[EalingGreen]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.

Spot on!

Though I would make one small, but critical qualification. You talk of clubs: "building up... ... their facilities (hopefully)", but there should be no "hopefully" about it imo.

For as clubs rise up the pyramid on the field, they should also be required simultaneously to meet minimum infrastructure standards off it, esp their stadium, otherwise they get get denied promotion.

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages in a short-term dash for promotion. While building proper facilities can raise money to help them survive and thrive in the medium to long term, effectively paying for itself.

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

(And yes, I know they received enormous assistance from the local Council etc, but the principle remains)

[nigel-harps1954]

Spot on!

Though I would make one small, but critical qualification. You talk of clubs: "building up... ... their facilities (hopefully)", but there should be no "hopefully" about it imo.

For as clubs rise up the pyramid on the field, they should also be required simultaneously to meet minimum infrastructure standards off it, esp their stadium, otherwise they get get denied promotion.

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages in a short-term dash for promotion. While building proper facilities can raise money to help them survive and thrive in the medium to long term, effectively paying for itself.

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

(And yes, I know they received enormous assistance from the local Council etc, but the principle remains)

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with that. But this is the FAI.

[EatYerGreens]

This is essential to stop clubs putting all their money into players' wages...

I mean, look to how well Shamrock Rvrs. are doing, in a stadium which isn't even in their traditional catchment (I think?).

Thank God for Rovers puting all their money into their stadium rather than their team

[legendz]

Simply listing areas where there are no teams is not going to magically fix any problems.

With a pyramid, you'd be allowing a team to grow naturally before they get any top division promotions, instead of a junior club jumping up into League of Ireland without ever building from the ground up, such was the case in Mervue and Salthill.

Any club who wants to build through the divisions would be building up their fanbase, their structures on and off the field, and their facilities (hopefully), as they climb through the divisions, giving them a chance to become a decent level club as they grow. The system we have at the minute doesn't allow for that.

If a club has ambitions to join the league of Ireland from junior level, they must be afforded the opportunity to build their club to the relevant standard, allowing for them to fall back somewhat gracefully if it doesn't work out for them, and not a shunt back to the bottom rung of their junior leagues.

Clubs can build through the youth leagues too, as a number are doing. It can take around 5 years.

[EalingGreen]

Thank God for Rovers puting all their money into their stadium rather than their team

Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field.

[sbgawa]

Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field.

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.

[EalingGreen]

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.

"It will cost Sutton United in excess of £500,000 to install a grass pitch and meet the requirements of the English Football League next season.

The U's began work on Monday to tear up the artificial 3G surface at Gander Green Lane after sealing the National League title and a historic promotion.

EFL rules state all matches must be played on grass surfaces.

Sutton become the second club in two years forced to swap their artificial pitch for grass, following Harrogate Town last summer.

The Yorkshire club started the 2020-21 campaign groundsharing at Doncaster after winning promotion to League Two via the play-offs."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57336301

[legendz]

Not what I was saying.

My point is that clubs should be mandated to have off-the-field facilities and infrastructure to match their on-field status as they rise up the leagues, regardless of where the funding of it comes from (Council, benefactor, sponsor etc).

And Shams are a good example of how top quality facilities generate greater funds, which can in turn lead to greater success on the field.

It's a fair shout that certain facilities must be in place. A potential third tier like the old A Championship should be relaxed on that score. The criteria should come into play for First Division licence. A Premier Division licence then should have more stringent criteria.
I think some criteria is already in place. Jackman Park in Limerick wasn't suitable for Premier Division. Kerry might get away with Mounthawk Park in it's current form but generally speaking there will be stadia criteria for any entity seeking to join the league.

[nigel-harps1954]

"It will cost Sutton United in excess of £500,000 to install a grass pitch and meet the requirements of the English Football League next season.

The U's began work on Monday to tear up the artificial 3G surface at Gander Green Lane after sealing the National League title and a historic promotion.

EFL rules state all matches must be played on grass surfaces.

Sutton become the second club in two years forced to swap their artificial pitch for grass, following Harrogate Town last summer.

The Yorkshire club started the 2020-21 campaign groundsharing at Doncaster after winning promotion to League Two via the play-offs."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/57336301

Pretty sure the FA puts up the money for any clubs who need stadium developments there, as a loan type arrangement.

[EalingGreen]

Pretty sure the FA puts up the money for any clubs who need stadium developments there, as a loan type arrangement.

Sounds right, but consider this: if they should get relegated again after a season or two, they no longer have their plastic pitch, but any loans would still have to be repaid.

While the grass pitch is only a part of it:
"Factoring in the required upgrades of turnstiles, floodlights and seating for away supporters, Elliott estimates almost all of the £1m they will receive for winning promotion has been spent on stadium improvements. The pitch, which was used by women’s, disability, academy and walking football sides, was also the first team’s training pitch so they now train on fields that belong to Sutton Grammar school."
https://www.theguardian.com/football...e-two-promoted

[EatYerGreens]

You are right on the point of making facilities a requirement for advancement, that is how they have done it in the UK and it has brought standards up everywhere.
As an example For anyone who hasnt watched "The class of 92" Salford story, they had to keep improving their facilities through promotion through 3 or 4 divisions.

That works perfectly in a pyramid system that has approx 20 tiers. But there is nowhere left for the likes of Finn Harps or Drogheda to advance to.

A better situation in Ireland would be a model whereby the standards for each tier are increased every so often via the licensing. Promotion shouldn't be the only time when an Irish club faces a requirement to improve their facilities.

[Burnsie]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty mess

[EatYerGreens]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty mess

It's not ideal by any means, but I wouldn't describe it as an "almighty mess". It's a one-off thing for ambitious cliubs who want to progress on and off the pitch. If you're in the 3 senior tiers afterwards for 20 or 30 years, what does it matter that there was a few months of transition to get to there. It would only really be a mess for any clubs who went up and then back down again after one year.

This LSL vote suggests to me that the FAI hasn't done its work in persuading the various leagues of the merits of everything in Irish football being aligned chronicologically (if it has even tried, that is)

[legendz]

A couple of weeks ago, the LSL resoundingly voted against a switch to a calendar year season, which would have been from 2024.

That will put a spanner in the works if it were anticipated that a couple of its top clubs would participate in the third tier, because - if any team did choose to move across - it will mean no competitive matches between May and February/March in the relevant year. You'd end up with entire squad spending half of the intermediate season "on loan" somewhere so it would be an almighty mess

The SFAI/DDSL, MSL and LSL are all examples of why the pyramid system is pie in the sky. The third tier type A Championship is the only way to circumvent the nonsense.