Almost a fair point but he was adored at Oldham and didn't leave due to not making the grade. He was forced out because they couldn't afford him after playing 44 times and scoring 8 goals. Not sure why people keeping making up their own narratives on the young lad. Just pop on Twitter and you'll still see Oldham fans supporting him. They had a whole Free Jack Byrne campaign when he was benched because they wanted him on the pitch. Your Daryl Horgan comparison makes sense and it's certainly no sure thing that Byrne can step up but there's more evidence supporting the claim than there was with Horgan. Jack has played and thrived in the Eredivisie (some great youtube videos of him against Ajax etc if you're interested), has already played and made an impact for Ireland and has lit up games in the Europa League with Rovers. In 4 games in the EL he had 5 assists and a goal. Different level to Horgan for me.Originally Posted by Razors left peg
I also don't see anything that obviously points to him not doing it in training and doubt you have any inside track into who is willing to spend what on Byrne unless you're Graham Barrett? He is out of contract at the end of the season so anyone looking at him won't be paying anything if they wait until then and in the current climate that's what they will do.
The reality is he is fighting for a specific role on the team and there are 2 players ahead of him so he needs to be patient and wait for injuries or a change in approach from Kenny. He isn't competing with Cullen. He will get another chance to build on the start he made against Bulgaria.
Im not trying to have a go at Byrne over the Oldham thing but if he was that good there and it was only an issue the coach or money then why did he end up in Kilmarnock and not another League 1 team at least. He previous didnt make it at Blackburn too. I thought the move to Blackburn was badly advised because they werent a team that tried to play football but the fact is he couldnt make it work there for one reason or another. So his list of clubs that hes been let go from already in his career is Man City, Blackburn, Oldham and Kilmarnock. Hes only 24 years old and hes had too many clubs it didnt work out at. I dont need to see you tube videos of him in Holland, I followed every game he was there at the time and thought he was brilliant (just like I did with Dan Crowley who is now warming the bench in Birmingham). Now we are complaining that he isnt being picked by the National team manager who with his LOI backround and style of playing football you would think is perfect for Byrne but he again is not being picked.
I would love nothing more than to see Byrne be brilliant for us, he showed glimpses against Bulgaria what hes capable of. You say that you dont see anything that points to him not doing well in training. I have no more information than you do but I see that he hasnt been picked and is the only player in the squad that hasnt got on the pitch in last couple games, so Im speculating like we all do on here. He may have got a game if McClean wasnt sent off but even before that Kenny could have switched Hendrick back deeper and brought Byrne on when we were looking for some creativity.
Sooner or later we might have to stop blaming managers for Byrnes career ending up in LOI and not being at the level we all want him to be at. Hes 24 not a kid in the football sense so he has to prove that hes good enough to the people that matter and not to the likes of us who keep wishing he was good enough.
Again Id love to see him picked against Finland and be man of the match, but Im not going to hold my breath.
Edit: Today was a good example of fan perception vs manager. Obafemi for the u21s was awful, didnt look anything resembling a top level footballer, but yet Kenny was getting hammered by some for not calling him up to seniors. The manager is not always right, look at the Wes situation for years, but I think Kenny has the right to call it as he sees it for now and he is not seeing enough to pick Byrne.
Last edited by Razors left peg; 13/10/2020 at 6:28 PM.
Fair points but Im not blaming managers. Sometimes moves just dont pan out and Jack is a player who is never going to thrive in a team playing hoofball. He never shouldve gone to some of the clubs but he has talked about all of that. When he has played (cambuur, oldham, rovers) he has veen fantastic and he continues to add to his game. Id disagree that 24 isnt young, particularly for his role. He has a decade of football left at least.
Theres far too much expectation around him either way. Anyone getting called up from LOI is going to have to bide their time. Kenny wasn't going to hand over another stick to be beaten with by playing unproven players in must win games. He really needs some more friendlies to go out and prove he can be an asset at this level. Getting worked up that he isnt starting is as bad as beating the lad down over and over again because of his transfer history. Loads of players get unlucky with moves and young men need time to develop mentally and physically. I've seen enough of Byrne to think he deserves a chance and could be really useful but it would be silly to expect that he starts ahead of Premier League players at this stage and even sillier to think he will come on and run the show in his first few appearances. Plenty of time for him to continue developing and it sounds like we both hope he gets his chance soon.
I think we agree more than we disagree but Im starting to come around to the opinion with a lot of players, not just Byrne that Im a bit sick of hearing about potential. Players have to step up and show they are good enough. A lot of the u21 squad are starting to do that and getting into their club teams at young ages. Yes moves sometimes dont work out and hopefully Byrne gets the right move, but he has to step up and prove it, right now its still ifs, buts and maybes
james mccarthy released
Horgan hasn’t set the world alight since moving from LOI. But he did ok at Preston and he did more than ok when he came on against Wales.
So I think if Byrne can do it in a green jersey, I don’t care what club he plays for.
Just like McAteer did it in a green jersey when he couldn’t get a game or (I think at one point) didn’t have a club
Id agree that I wouldn't care who he plays for if he was doing it in a green shirt but he has to get in the green shirt 1st and he can only do that by being better than the other players in training in my opinion.
I agree he has to train well but there are some who really turn it on in a game without being brilliant trainers.
Maurice Fitzgerald was a famously poor trainer and did amazing things on the pitch.
I don't want to keep going over the same arguments but Byrne hasn't done anything in his club career to justify him getting that kind of leeway. 1 decent game against an AC Milan team in 2nd gear doesn't show he can make step up. I'm really not a fan of Hourihane but there is a player who's shown the determination and balls at every level he's played at to get to the top. Byrne failed at all the same levels.
Only caveat is that Byrne possibly offers something different to others in the squad from a creative stand point. There was a pass to Burke a few weeks ago for a goal that was sensational and I'm not sure any one else in squad can do that. But there are plenty of fellas through the years that we all know that could have been something brilliant but never made the step up for 1 reason or another. If he is not pushing for a move after Rovers win the league Id question whether he want to push himself to get better
Again, the narrative you're going with isn't quite right for me but it's interesting you use Hourihane in comparison. They almost followed a similar path.
Hourihane couldn't get a game for Ipswich and dropped to League Two aged 20 which kickstarted things for him but he worked his way slowly up the leagues. He didn't join Barnsley in League One until he was 23 and didn't make to it Villa in the Championship until 3 years later.
Byrne couldn't get going at Manchester City or Wigan (then in the championship) so took a similar drop to League Two where, as I've said already he did not fail by any objective measure -he played 44 times and scored 8 goals, securing a full-time deal before getting chased out of the club by a board who needed to cut costs and who managed to tarnish his reputation in the process. **** happens and he has plenty of time to work his way back up.
He's 24. Let's leave the lad to develop before writing him off for any imagined lack of effort in training. It's pure speculation and there's been enough rumours from people who haven't a clue and just want another story in the tabloids so they can laugh at the LOI and get back to the tv. He's been absolutely excellent all season, playing through injury and playing almost every game through. His dedication shouldn't be in question and I'm sure he will move sooner rather than later. People should be watching him at Rovers and enjoying what he does for now because the pass to Burke that you mentioned was par for the course.
And he's done more than have 1 decent game against Milan. That's obvious surely? The Milan game isn't why he got into the squad last time (when he actually got on the pitch and lit things up for 30 minutes if you recall, providing our goal and generally creating more in that time than the team had in their previous 10 games!). He's in the squad on merit but, as I said, he isn't even 2nd choice. Him not playing isn't a clear sign of anything other than the fact there are players ahead of him in Kenny's current system. Everything else is speculation driven by bias in most cases.
I'm as sick of people beating up on a young lad based on speculation as you are of players not fulfilling potential but the two go hand in hand. He has potential, now he needs time to prove it and he has plenty.
I'd rather have this conversation over a pint snd/or on the terrace.
I was being a bit of a smart ar$e about the Milan game. Let's agree that we both think he has talent and we both want him to get in the Ireland team. I think I just have more doubts right now.
Hopefully I'll end up looking like an idiot tomorrow if he plays and is a game changer
Fair enough, we do agree there. It's more disappointment for me to be honest as I think he has been unlucky not to play under Kenny yet. Don't think he will be playing tomorrow. Might have to wait until the November games.
Sadly I think the game he could've been most useful in was the Slovakia game, particularly in the first half.
Hope we all get to see what he can do soon and that everyone is patient as well. Just getting on the field would be an achievement! He isn't going to run the show at international level but I'm fairly confident he can have a similar impact as Hoolahan eventually....maybe more so as he will hopefully grow into an Irish team who is starting to play a style that suits the skillset Byrne and Hoolahan bring.
Interesting conundrums tonight. Kenny is surely unlikely to give a rest to the outfield players who have played almost every minute so far- Doherty, Duffy, Stevens, Hourihane, Hendrick. I don't think the first three could be rested and it's difficult to know who Kenny has shown confidence in to play ahead of one or both of the latter pair (I don't think he'd throw Cullen in).
Assuming McCarthy is unfit and Kevin Long is fit, I'm expecting the following:
Randolph
Doherty, Duffy, Long, Stevens
Molumby, Hourihane
Brady, Hendrick, Connolly
Idah
Fan perception: You should just listen to me! I think Byrne is up for it and I have constantly questioned whether Obafemi is. I've a bit of a thing for Horgan too.
Seriously though, I think it's well documented Byrne struggled living in England. Maybe as a kid / young man who had just lost his father he wasn't ready for it? The fact that he is back living with his mum and seemingly very happy doing so says a lot. His football career is part of his life but not all of it. If he has to go away again I think he'll need to make sure it's a move that suits him.
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 14/10/2020 at 7:15 AM.
RR Syndrome it's called I think. that's the informal title. Medical one is Twee-Ripae-Quattuor Syndrome.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
In some ways Id echo what Stutts has said a page back.
The one thing you rarely hear about footballers - particularly Irish ones - is the personal(ity) side, or the human side.
Jack Byrne from what I've read, struggled mentally in England. His personality didn't exactly fit in with the "lad" mentality. Instead of scrapping and cúnting about various northern outposts for two or three years - with no guarantee that the blackguardism that happened him at Blackburn, wouldn't happen again. He choose to come back to Dublin to be in a better environment. In an ideal world, this is what every Irish-born player should be able to do, and not have it effect their chances of representing the national side - provided they are good enough.
We've also had players that have had a clamour to be called up, who - quite frankly - seem like absolute scrotes, and for that reason alone the manager makes a judgement call that most of time we'd all be happy with in any other legalwalk of life. These people don't have to be role-models, but they do have to be on the right side of the law. I don't believe that Byrne falls into that category either in case anyone gets upset. I'm just saying that there are football considerations, and non-football considerations. One thing I'd suggest for the FAI to do, is be careful with the pictures they are taking and releasing - this stuff gets pored over microscopicly nowadays, and the images of Byrne were touch-paper for the gossip-arsonists amongst us.
On Byrne himself, I'd like to think that I'm a fair judge of a player, willing to give all sorts a crack of the whip. The level a player plays at is important. For me, more importance should be attached to the skillset that the player has, and how he demonstrates that. He's a progressive midfielder who is brave in how he wants the ball, and courageous in how he uses it. The pass for the goal against (Cork?) recently that lots jizzed their pants about. There's two aspects to that - the pass that he gave, the level he's playing at is completely irrelevant:
- He put the ball onto his forwards toe from 35/40 yds over a defender's head. Bar robbie Brady, I don't think any of what could be referred to as our "senior" internationals, could do it, nevermind think of trying it. Where's the evidence over the past god-knows-how long?
- It's not just the pass that he gave, but it's the pass he didn't give. Finn (possibly?) was free in acres of space wide on the right, the obvious ball for Byrne - again which he's capable of - which dragged the opposition further open, and the gap with the cbs got a bit wider.
- So you're not just having to cover for the pass that you're expecting, but also that bit of magic that you don't expect; that's where the level of opposition comes into reckoning, but not on the abilities that Byrne has with the ball at his feet. That doesn't happen with a lot of other Irish midfielders.
IMO Byrne deserves that crack of the whip. What I'd also say is that I completely understand why Kenny hasn't picked him. Rightly or wrongly (->in my opinion), the pressure is on Kenny from the clowns that make up a large percentage of the floating Irish football fan. The type of clown who wants instant success, even if that instant success deviates from the bigger picture. Picking a league of Ireland player - when a 2G or 3G luminary from Charlton or wherever could be picked instead - would be a problem for Kenny right now. Something goes wrong - lets say some rash idiot gets himself sent off for two quick bookable offences (a long time coming one could consider), and suddenly you're on the backfoot (not Byrne's speciality), concede a late goal, and suddenly the knives are out. Some will say it's cowardice - in this instance I think it's pragmatism. I personally had hoped he might start in Finland, obviously that can't happen now.
For me, Byrne would be best utilised in the inside left, or left of the 3 position. however, there-in maybe lies the problem. In an ideal world at the moment - if you did select him - that would be a triangle of Stevens - Byrne - Connolly. That's a very small group for a third of your outfield players, when defending in general, and specifically on set-pieces.
Finally, what I like about Byrne, and why I'd like to see him have something of a run in the side, is because when he wants the ball, he's not going into what I'd call negative territory just to get it. I've pointed out to colleagues on here - off-site - and I think it's valid. One of our current starting midfielders has a very good passing range with his left boot, but for whatever reason he doesn't attack space (or worse, isn't static or lateral) when he gets the ball, it's a pass and a slight retreat. It's disappointing because it slows down play and can be a momentum killer. particularly when you've a player like Enda Stevens outside you who is very good at receiving the ball under pressure, is always looking at forward movement, and is excellent in this "new" underlapping or inner-lapping phase. I think he'd dovetail very well with Stevens and Connolly, and would go a long way towards improving our probing in and around the box.
Tl;dr? Just read stuttgart 88 above.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
Back to match matters. He sure does have conundrums! Centre-half, midfield and up-front. If you're not going to utilise your squad though...
First thing to say, is that Matt Doherty actually played quite well at CB when he moved in. Composed and used the ball well - not perfect, but far from a disaster. Would you put him there, and move Dara into RB? Why make two changes, when you can only make one? Give O'Shea his bow alongside Duffy - he'll have experience left and right in Duffy and Stevens. Honestly, I'd keep Christie as far away from the side as possible. I thought he was awful when he came on, and honestly he looked overweight. So Doc at RB again.
Secondly, I think we've solved a few of our problems:
- ball rentention,
positive aggressive defence,
forward passing and interplay,
midfield attacking the box;
I don't think we're a million miles away from having real options and alternatives across the pitch either, and I just have this feeling that once we score one goal from open-play, a pressure-valve will be released, and it will all start to click.
One outstanding issue, you'd have to say, is the combination of the midfield 3, and the two support players to the striker.
In credit to SK, we've had quite a few different partnerships in the midfield 3, and each at times has been good, and at others awful, without the team imploding either.
For me the positives have certainly been:
- Molumby the last day - doesn't require explanation;
Browne's showing against Slovakia;
Hendrick at times - both in the central position vs Slovakia, but also the last day; He's an extremely gifted player with the ball in tight spots - passing isn't huge - but he doesn't trust himself enough outside the box.
The negatives has been:
- Hourihane;
(and I hate to say it because I think he's probably our best all-rounder in there) James McCarthy - hasn't hit the heights I'd have hoped;
balance in the 3;
I would like to see this:
-------------Randolph;
Doherty, Duffy, OShea, Stevens;
---------------Cullen-------------
-----Molumby------Hendrick-----
Connolly--------------------Curtis
----------------Idah----------------
I want to see Curtis get some game time. I really like this lad and think he's got plenty to offer. Same for Cullen; there's been plenty of opportunities to give him a run out, but none better than now with Mac, Browne and Byrne all out. Finally, I just love Adam Idah. The boy is a goalscorer. He's done it at every level he's played at. He'll do it for the senior team too. Just give him the time to get used to the set-up, and we'll be rewarded. I've likened him - it was literally the first thing I said when I saw him play - to Pippo Inzaghi:
- he has a great touch despite looking awkward;
- he gets offside - a lot;
- he gets a stupid amount of chances. You don't create those amount of chances without having something about you.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
And so say all of us.
Here they come! It’s the charge of the “Thanks” Brigade!
I really want to see Cullen start, and over Hourihane. I'd like to see Horgan start but I doubt he will. I wouldn't try O'Shea yet. I also like Curtis but I'd prioritise looking at Horgan first.
I think Christie did look overweight but I thought he did just fine on Sunday. That said, I'd revert to Sunday's starting back 4.
I like Idah too but I'm nowhere near as bullish as you are. He hasn't scored goals at every level yet and in the game we saw together at Burton he was actually very wasteful. But I'd start him tonight I think, Connolly (despite continued reservations I have) and Horgan either side. I think, like Mick did back in 1996/7 we should persist with the young rough diaomonds as it's the only way they'll learn.
Brady will probably start though, wide right.
I'd say I'm certain of 6-7 of the starters only, which is one of the more interesting parts of "learning" a new manager.
Kingdom, I agree with your preference for O'Shea and Cullen and I do like the idea of Curtis starting. I think, however, that (as someone has mentioned recently) that we need one of Hourihane and Brady on the pitch. I know we aren't reliant on dead balls (or are we?) But we could use someone on the park that can deliver quality cross and corners, as well as a good free. We don't score enough from open play (and haven't done so under Kenny) to justify not having one of the pair on the field. That would be my view and it is open to plenty of challenge.
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