QuoteI'm not talking about huge new builds here EYG, I`m suggesting basics could be done, and not at too high expense either.
Hardly too much to expect even in the medium term.
But again - why would they do anything like that ? It won't aid their business objective. It'll just cost them money and be a distraction. So seriously - why would they bother ?Originally Posted by oriel
If any Dundalk fans find this disappointing, it's because they have given themselves inflated expectations.
I'm not talking about huge new builds here EYG, I`m suggesting basics could be done, and not at too high expense either.
Hardly too much to expect even in the medium term.
#DundalkFC - First Irish club to win an away game in Europe (1963), first Irish club to win points in a group stage in Europe (2016).
Depends on your definition of basic*. It could be argued that basic work has and is being carried out. Drainage and resurfacing behind the town end goal. painting in the stand and plenty of other "basics".
Then there's a lot of investment in the YDC which I presume is part of a plan to create top of the range facilities for players and to help attract a better calibre of player over time.
*I want a lovely new stadium as much as the next fan but I'm a realist
I take your point, although expectations around stadium developments and ground improvements may be a little more nuanced than you outline
On your latter point, of course some fans have been consistent in being concerned about the lack of significant spectator upgrades or any clear plans around Oriel Park. It is fair to say that even though the Consortium were unequivocal at the outset that infrastructure was not an immediate priority, many fans chose to believe that incremental upgrades can and would be made. Interviews with Mike Treacy and Mal Brannigan during the season reinforced this view and raised expectations.
Oriel's comments about it being 'dreadful' if there are no spectator improvements as a legacy for the most successful period in the clubs history are fair and reflect a dawning realisation among many of what the Peak6 consortium folk said at the outset.
It also may be premature to consider that the end of this era is anywhere in the immediate future.
Happy to see McMillan didn't go back to dundalk. He would have almost guaranteed the title, in my view. Just need hoooooooooban to get injured and it's a level playing field 😉
It's actually pronounced as hooooooooobin.
Just a guess but I assume the owners would quickly upgrade Oriel once Dundalk qualify for Europa or Champions League
1) There's no way to quickly upgrade a stadium like Oriel in any meaningful way. That would require structural change, which would require both time and permissions.
2) Dundalk already have qualified for Europe, and can reasonably be expected to continue doing so for most of the foreseeable future. Yet nothing substantive is being done to the stadium.
3) For a business which sees it's main return coming from European qualification and progression, why would they spend any money on a stadium to do so when they can just use Tallaght or the Aviva instead when they need to ? That would increase their matchday revenue from participation in Europe at a tiny fraction of the cost of getting Oriel up to standard.
I was aware that they already qualified before. Perhaps what I should have said is once more, in that if they qualify again and would do it more often than not, the riches would flow. I suppose one can't wave a magic wand, but within a few years (quickly by Irish standards of getting anything done), with sustained cash from sustained qualifications, I wondered if that might be the only way they would do an upgrade if they ever have plans to. Based on Larnaca last year, there's no certainty that they can be reasonably expected to qualify, although I hope they do, and that the away tie was just a horrible night where everything went wrong. Of course, keep using Tallaght as it's relatively near, but long term, surely it would be nice to have something like Tallaght or TX in Dundalk Town.
Last edited by CorribsideSteve; 31/01/2019 at 9:39 PM.
Do many Dundalk fans still volunteer for the club?
It's worth pointing out that using tallaght or the Aviva might not actually result in increased matchdays revenue. The costs of just opening the Aviva are huge and then there's no way of knowing if they'd get all the concessions income and for Tallaght there'd be rent to pay and the cost of anything that needs to be added to get it up to grade or if they're all provided then the rent may be even higher and for concessions to make money they'd have to set up their own stalls since as is all the stalls are 3rd party or Rovers and not tallaght stadium which would cost money, not a lot, but you'd have to weigh that up against the potential income.
This is the problem though when you get in bed with these companies who are only there to make money and the football club is just a way to do that for them. In theory the licencing laws should mean investment in facilities but the FAI set the standard so low and don't even enforce them at that so that won't happen.
It's sad really, as annoying as dundalk fans can be sometimes it's sad to see a loi club not taking full advantage of its success and repeating the mistakes of the past and banking on more short term success instead of planning for the future so if things do go tits up there's still some sort of legacy.
I get you brother. Not taking advantage of your own success is an awful affliction.
Success can be so elusive - at least we can console ourselves by trying to win 5 out of 6 titles in 2019
You can console yourselves with all the trophies you want but what happens when they, and they inevitably will, dry up? Suddenly you're not winning, you playing in a dump that's even more run down than it is now. Will the fans keep showing up, it'll be a lot harder to get going again.
At the end of the day peak6's job is to make money, what happens if they decide football isn't the way to do that, or a better offer in football comes up that means they can't own dundalk? They've shown by not investing in the ground or making any movements to do so that they couldn't care less about the club just the money it can make them and if they don't see sufficient scope for that they'll drop dundalk like a stone and since their job is to make money not build football clubs you can bet they'll be taking a good chunk with them leaving dundalk in what sort of state? who knows. Could all be fine but it could be anything but and that's the worry I'd have if I was a dundalk fan. You may struggle to comprehend this Ez but I'm saying this all as a LOI fan not a Rovers fan, when owners invest in clubs purely to make money it rarely ends well for the club in the long run especially when the club starts from a low base facilities and structures wise and that's my worry for Dundalk.
The riches would flow in that scenario indeed. But straight into the accounts and dividends of Peak 6.
I'll ask again - why would they spend money doing anything substantive to the stadium if it didn't advance their core business objective to do so - i.e. cashing in on Europe ? They have no emotional attachment to Dundalk at all. This is more than likely just a medium term business deal for these guys. Get in, make some money through Europe, and then ideally sell the club on at a healthy profit before disappearing. It's all about the benjamins, and there seems little real benefit to them burning any of those on Oriel Park.
So rather than wonder if they're going to invest in the stadium, I'd suggest a more pertinent question would be what they'd do if they found themselves unable to reap the financial benefits they clearly want (for whatever reason) ? Like if other clubs had financial injections which made it harder for Dundalk to get CL and even EL qualification. If they couldn't get the return they want in the way they'd hoped, would they just walk away ? Or would they seek to realise it in other ways (I'm looking at you, Oriel Park) ? And would would be the financial implications for Dundalk of either scenario ? These guys won't be at the club forever.
Last edited by EatYerGreens; 01/02/2019 at 12:38 AM.
There is still a high level of volunteerism, I would say quite similar to the 2 previous owners and probably a good few more than before that again. Coaching at underage levels, the quality programme produced is all voluntary. As we know from the allegations of supposed holding back tickets/merchandising for buddies, a lot of the office staff are voluntary. Stewarding is mainly voluntary. The club shop also. Tbh beyond the playing staff and coaches and senior admin the only other paid staff are probably bar staff. These things take time to evolve, and in some areas for sure things could improve with more full time staff but this is happening as the club builds gradually (not on the basis of owner investment, spoils of being in Europe or player sales). Growth in average gates, sponsorship, merchandising sales, full utilisation of facilities like the YDC etc and staffing will likely grow accordingly. This would be a more local decision to make within an annual budget that doesnt need going to Peak6 looking for money for a few office staff. It's good to have a decent level of volunteerism but as a club with ambition to be as professional as it can there could be more behind the scene staff imo. Nothing is so broken though that better guidance and supervision of volunteers couldnt fix significantly enough.
As for the rest of the chat above - its all been discussed to death at this stage!! Dundalk fans were tenative about the takeover, we know the pitfalls and risks and the Arkaga example was rolled out plenty by Dundalk fans. We were hopeful but not expectant on improvements to Oriel but we knew that investors were not going to build a ground for a few games a season when you can rent a ground for a fraction of the cost for those games. Oriel is sufficient, if not particularly nice, for most games including early rounds in Europe. When there is a scramble for tickets for a significant number of sold out league games a season then maybe P6 may seriously look at ground improvements. As it is the safe holding 5k capacity is sufficient. It would be nice to have a nice new place or even incremental improvements but whether they are needed, as opposed to desired, is debatable. With the greatest of respect to our lauded away section how much return would there be on even 200k worth of improvement, thats what roughly an additional 15000 away fans over a season to cover costs (we should have a thread on guestimated away crowds if it didnt cause ructions weekly lol). Of course if there was some reasonable evidence to suggest that those sort of numbers would travel due to a roof and toilets at the away section that would generate an additional 200k in subsequent seasons it would be done. The same thing applies for the home sections, if improvements could be financially justified they would happen. and having €xmillion in the bank is not justification alone.
Its not nice, we dont like it, we want to see some lasting legacy from the era of success thats not just the roll of honour, but cost benefit analysis needs to make sense!
We also do not know what is in the pipelines either, we can only speculate on what could happen with both Peak6 ownership and Oriel Park. For example a company was employed to look at the possibile options for the club, greenfield site or stick with Oriel with a view to improve it. The assessment was that Oriel offers quite a lot eg location and ground development at Oriel was the way to go. There have been a number of meetings with Louth County Council also. The previous owners also had preliminary plans done. They werent released probably for a whole load or reasons but one would be the weariness of plans being released but never a word again about them. A look back at the local papers over 20 years and there are 3 different 'front cover' reports with architect renditions of the top of my head - the millenium stand shed side, and various extensions of the main stand as examples and there are probably more going back further.
The expectation is damn low among Dundalk fans by and large and its not really relative tbh - cosmetic stuff would actually be progress for now. Some might hope that a cheap and cheerful barn like roof structure over existing terracing could happen.
Anyway, any Dundalk fans that are not concerned about the future and Peak6 pulling the plug are either deluded or extremely naive. As naive as to think other club's fans really are just genuinely worried about the leagues image if the wheels fell off and wouldnt be rubbing the hands with a smug 'told ye so' look on the faces. It's not impossible that in 10 years time we could be looking back on this thread with Dundalk on their way to title 20 odd. playing ina tidy all seated ground as Europe groups stage regulars....that or were added to the list of phoenix clubs that will have bought back 'the original club' after a season of being called Dundalk Hibs/United/Celtic/GNR etc and keep our trophy haul!
You're right, I am struggling to take you seriously.
While some LoI fans see the bigger picture, for most the bigger and more pressing issue is Dundalk's current dominance in the league and the fear that Peak6 involvement could reinforce this further in the short to medium term
I have plenty of reservations about Peak6 and the long term future, but I have certainly enjoyed the journey so far
Yeah you keep your tinfoil hat on and keep believing that
I think most DFC fans realise where things stand at the minute, for P6 to get their return this will come from Euro and for that to happen they will need to continue to invest heavily into the playing budget, and for the team to win the league. How long this will last for, who knows, but most if not all LOI clubs at the top will have some sort of investors is place, as without a tv deal, sponsorship / gates won’t cover the bills.
The only frustration I find is mixed messages coming from P6, they mentioned on more than one occasion that any ground redevelopment would be gradual, the infamous puddle was fixed, new pathway installed, stand painted, then the 300k put into the YDC this winter.
However they also mentioned before any other (spectator) improvements would be by way of earned income, and suggested this would follow the same route the Scanda clubs (Norwegian especially) took. Mike Tracey the main P6 spokesman and chairman of DFC has also acknowledged (not hard) the away section is the worst in the league, mind you its worth noting the similar home section the other side of the stand is not much better either, save toilets behind it.
P6 must just like talking about these things in the future that will probably never happen.
Last edited by oriel; 01/02/2019 at 9:24 AM.
#DundalkFC - First Irish club to win an away game in Europe (1963), first Irish club to win points in a group stage in Europe (2016).
You may considering the overall welfare of the league RH but you cannot deny that there are good proportion of league fans while not necessarily wanting a club to go under, would enjoy Dundalk FC being put back in their box. It would be a natural thing too if there is risk of a club dominating through investor wealth to hope that those investors walk!? There isnt too much conspiracy or paranoia around this thinking at all!
Accidentally deleted my post on this poxy phone. I'm just shocked Dundalk for a club it's size don't have more full time staff given the new ownership. Even their media officer is totally voluntary, a club that size should have someone on site full time.
I actually don't have a problem with Peak 6 not improving Oriel because they said they weren't going to do it.
If they'd gone the lovely scale model route and promised a new stadium and reneged on it then you would be right to call them out on it.
they are trying to do a Rosenberg and if they do, my problem will not be the dump that is Oriel it will be the winning titles piece.
The only thing that can prevent that is other clubs stepping up as the resources in DFC now mean we can't expect them to go backwards.
Now where did we put that centre forward ??
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