QuoteSee those are the only three games I'd back Wigan to win in a season, such an anomaly of a place it has become. But I get what you mean.Originally Posted by OwlsFan
if Wigan play in a 4 way league with Man City, Arsenal and Everton and lose all 3 games, is there a crisis at Wigan?
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
See those are the only three games I'd back Wigan to win in a season, such an anomaly of a place it has become. But I get what you mean.
I think we are on the same page here.
If they lost to Arsenal, yes!
Point taken, and 95% accepted, but if Wigan had gone out with a whimper and barely put up a fight, and after warning signs had been there for 2+ years previously (limp performances, inadequate ball retention against lesser teams, getting easily picked off by more technical teams, widespread opinion that team / squad selection was rigid and conservative, falling crowds) it'd be fair for Wigan fans to ask what could be done better.
So, there's no evidence that suddenly there's a crisis but nor is it just OK to accept everything unquestioningly.
I think there's a fair comparison to be drawn between Trap and Wenger. Losing 8-2 to United, 4-0 to Milan and losing 9 or 10 league games while the dogs on the street know that his team lacks certain characteristics and that these are within the manager's ability to rectify if he wasn't so dogmatic can not just be fobbed off by the fact that he has by and large done what he has been paid to do.
With respect this question kind of makes the point. It's not that long ago that we held our own with Spain and Italy (as well as Germany, Holland, England, Russia etc) in major tournaments. We have been competitive in every competition that we have qualified for, and would probably been competitive in the ones that we didn't qualify for, when we were in much more demanding qualifiying groups. This is the worst ever performance by a team in the Euro finals. Worse even that Latvia! The results and performances were predictable and were in no small measure down to the tactical obstinacy and irrational selections of an overage coach who we rescued from semi-retirement in Austria. His appoinment was a post-traumatic spasm engendered by the horror that was Stan. I am sick of Trappistas justifying his generally baleful tenure by comparison to Staunton as if the previous two decades didn't actually happen. I watched a rerun of our 2002 game against Cameroon on ESPN the other night and it was an eye opener. The 2002 squad (minus Roy Keane) was not conspicuously more talented that the players available to Trapp, yet the football and ambition were a million miles ahead of what we have had tio endure over the last week.
The evidence is pretty stark. Trapps CV is in the past tense. He will only become more conservative, more obstinate and more certain about the eventual triumph of his outdated and manifestly inadequate tactical approach. He cannot possibly enjoy the respect and confidence of the players who will be the hub of our next campaign, because these are the very players who he has ignored, snubbed and alienated. We need a new beginning, and above all a manager who actually believes we are capable of performing and competing at this level by playing something recognisable as football.
Thats ignoring the context in that Wigan's season is successful if they win 1 in 3.5 games. There'd be no crisis because if they won their next game at Wolves it'd be a good months work.
If those however were the last 3 matches of the season with Wigan needing 4 points to survive and they wound up getting a 1-9 goal difference out of them I'd say there'd be questions asked at why the teams spirit was so poor to collapse without a fight.
The FAI should begin their recruitment around the mental institutions then?
We should take a leaf from Englands book in recognising how bad we are and compete through anti-football chelseaball rather then try and fail at taking on superior players.
In the parlance of UK Parliamentary protocols, I would refer the Honourable Gentleman to my previous answer........ We actually did quite well playing something that was "recognisable as football" in years gone by. This did not mean us playing like a proto-Barca, but it did mean something slightly more intelligent and versatile than what has clearly not worked at this tournament.
I think his point was to illustrate that if a team lost to 3 superior teams there'd be no talk of a crisis. He clearly said if it was a 4 team league. He was asking for some imagination.
England lost 3 games at E88 and got to WC SF next time out. Irish rugby did just as badly in 2007 and won a Slam in 2009. Wholesale change in a kneejerk response may not be required.
i posted this in the league forum by mistake, but here is a good piece on Delaney
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318259016.html
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While I don't think the man can be blamed for our miserable showing at the euros he has been running the organisation for nearly a decade now and I really can't see what he has achieved in that time apart from a big salary.
He can hardly take any credit for the redevelopment of Lansdowne road and qualifying for a first tournament in 10 years is more down to other people suggesting Trap and picking up the bill.
I think it's fair for Delaney's performance / record / contractual terms being scrutinised (in fact any senior executive should be scrutinised by stakeholders in an organisation) but I generally don't have an issue with him fraternising with fans on away trips. The cynical view would be that it's only a PR gimmick on his part but I think it's all part of the unique Irish football thing as well.
I have never heard Martinez constantly hinting at the poor standard of player he has to work with. And I'm sure Martinez will shortly be putting in bids for either Paul Green or Glenn Whelan to replace McCarthy. Back to the crisis question. One of the main problems the FAI created for themselves was in hiring managers who were clearly IMO not up to the job ie Kerr and Stan or offering extended contracts too early to the likes of Micmac and Trap. These decisions seem emotive to me and not thought through. Delaney should be calling a meeting with Trap and Tardelli and try work out some way to say good byes all round. I would like to see someone like Roy Keane brought in to run Irish football (not as manager). Get rid of Delaney too.
Last edited by Noelys Guitar; 20/06/2012 at 12:57 PM.
The trouble about the tournament is that there are only 3 games. In the campaign leading up to the Finals our record was 7-4-1, including the play offs. In a league scenario, if the likes of Wigan then played 3 of the top 10 in the league and lost, would there be a crisis? I don't think so.
We have problems of course. Trap refusing to consider the likes of Wilson, McCarthy and Coleman is strange and frankly annoying, although the latter had an injury affected season. The public outcry for McLean I am not sure about. I have a feeling he may be a shooting star but I hope I am wrong. His test will come half way through next season but he was in an area we are pretty much covered. Goal keeper and defence are problem areas. Possibly we have a crisis there. I don't think Clarke at the moment is an answer. If Dunne, who had a poor tournament by his high standards were to retire we would be screwed.
As to the style of football, I am not that bothered. I don't go to games to be entertained. I go to see winning football. If playing football in the purest sense were to get better results, then so be it, but bearing in mind that the first goal we gave away in each game was caused by us trying to play football in our own half, the jury is out on that but with better players, who knows. I would have preferred Hoolahan to be our 5th midfielder against Spain but he wasn't in the squad.
Do we have a crisis in the international side? A crisis of confidence yes. A crisis in what Trap is about, I don't think so but he does need to look outside the group of players whom he regards as his team.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
I agree with a lot of that Owlsfan. But can you see Trap changing things enough to get the results we will need against Sweden and Austria to get that second spot? I can't. And the pressure is going to increase on Trap from journos and then the crowd. Familiar path again.
There is one main(2 maybe) thing I have learnt about this forum since I've gone out to poland and come back.
Only a handful of posters have any clue about football.
Second, less relevant, the rest are completely out of touch with what is going on.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
He's been saying the right things, more or less anyway, as reported in the papers.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/...318258850.html
“I accept your criticisms,” he said without sounding 100 per cent sincere. “We lost. When the team is winning the people are grateful to the manager but not when it loses.
“Obviously it’s a tough group [WC14 qualifying group], the others are high in the ranking but I think that with the young players we can be better.”
“If the players are young then we won’t need to make changes for new energy and so we can change the team technically.”
He was pretty scathing when pressed on specific formations, though, and dismissed the idea he should have changed things after having qualified on the back of one style of play.
“We built a team around this system. Now, we have ideas about the system and maybe in August [when Ireland play a friendly against Serbia in Belgrade]. But we can talk a million times about the system and it is only words.
“What are important are facts and it has to be tested because if it doesn’t fit the qualities of your players then it doesn’t work.”
His suggestion was a switch to a five-man midfield would have to be tried out, possibly in the team’s next game and he identified James McCarthy as a player whose greater integration into the side could facilitate a shift in approach.
Others who might take encouragement from his comments yesterday included Séamus Coleman, James McClean and particularly Darron Gibson who, perhaps because he got so little of a look in here, was singled out for special attention.
The older players, he acknowledged, would have to make way but gradually, he again insisted.
Playing them here was, he said, “not just about loyalty, it was the right thing to do.”
Now, he continued, it is important they help a new generation to grow. “One or two players are particularly important for us,” he observed after revealing he has already spoken to Richard Dunne about sticking around.
“We can talk about Shane Duffy,” he said, “but is he ready for this?”
Intererstingly, although Tets and I frequently comment on how Trap has actually introduced new faces, Emmet Malone says that 7 of the Poznan team started against Georgia in Mainz 4 years ago, and it would have been 8 except Duff was injured then.
What's your synopsis Paul - which of the following would you tick on your ballot box (tick a few if you want)?
(a) Bad luck and injuries were main culprits. Trap can stay.
(b) No shame in losing to 3 good sides, but performance was poor. Trap can change things a bit and we'll be grand next campaign.
(c) Performance was poor because of tactics / shape / Trap's system / personnel selection / substitutions. Trap must go but only slight personnel changes required.
(d) Trap can stay but must be more flexible and must introduce some new blood
(e) Wholesale change required, manager, players, everything
(f) fans were right old gombeens
(g) fans were great
I don't know if a crisis all of a sudden is the most appropriate description for our current state. A worrying exposure of what has long been an inept and fragmented (barely existent?) domestic developmental infrastructure is more apt.
That stephen ward is crap, and was responsible for at least 2 goals, like i suggested and kept banging on about, had he not been playing then thats 2 less goals, and 2 at vital times in games.
That we were lucky when it mattered, as i had suggested, and teams didnt take their chances against us over the last few years, and when they did, we got beaten out the gate.
That people harped on about drawing with a poor italian team home and away who were shown up in the world cup, against the might of new zealand, and an ageing french team who were in disarray, and then that a meaningless pre holiday friendly against Italy when we won 2-0 was a barometer in how far we had come.
That traps stubborness to his system and that the players were only good enough to play this system and still get results, proved part of our undoing. Even though for 20 minutes against the italians the 4-3-3 showed that we can play a different system, and we can hold ball and create chances with it.
That we made so many basic mistakes, even though trap bangs on about leetle details and what not, it made absolutely no difference when push came to shove.
Basically anything that the majority of posters and a lot of the main ones on here banged on about for ages that were always wrong but finally got shown up at the Euros.
That trap rarely makes changes when it matters most, again like i have said in the past.
Trap got us through a few scrapes, had we not got estonia we would more than likely not have qualified. Our biggest win under Trap to date is Armenia away. Thats enough for me really.
That playing players out of club sides(not clubless) or game time is fine on 1 off games throughout the seaon, but will be shown up in intense tournament football over a few days, especially when you have players good enough to replace them.
But I could go on and on ....
We definitely had more to offer at the Euros than Trap showed, and as usual Trap has shown that he isn't up there when it comes to intense international tournament football. I still think though, that there are enough players who have been around under him now, that if he adapts and changes when required, like say when we are NOT playing against Germany, then he should stay.
Last edited by paul_oshea; 20/06/2012 at 2:46 PM.
I'm a bloke,I'm an ocker
And I really love your knockers,I'm a labourer by day,
I **** up all me pay,Watching footy on TV,
Just feed me more VB,Just pour my beer,And get my smokes, And go away
There is a crisis. Not because of 3 lost games, with two totally inept performances though. The performances just expose it. If we'd gone and got three draws or fluked our way out of the group the crisis would still exist. However, Delaney and Co needn't worry. I haven't heard one media commentator actually try to go beyond the superficial tactics and/or the players that weren't picked. Obviously, most of our "experts" came through the current failing system, so why would they be enlightened?
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
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