James McClean M Wrexham b.1989

**paul_oshea** · 04/04/2013, 4:16 PM

You missed the point CD. I wasn't being pedantic about the word admit, but I took slight offence knowing that you had no interest, that you had the arrogance to act as though you are in some authority - to admit - because you are "involved" in the church/the religion.

**Charlie Darwin** · 04/04/2013, 4:25 PM

I think you've overanalysed this POSH. I was just trying to distance myself from the church, clumsily I'll admit.

**Stuttgart88** · 04/04/2013, 4:50 PM

I'm too lazy to multi-quote but just in response to some of the above from Charlie:

Nor would I be in any way forgiving. Whatever about whether fascism is joined at the hip with racism and anti-semitism (I'm absolutely sure it is but not quite so sure why it has to be) it's a charter for psychopaths and thugs at the very least. The "order" and "control" it seeks can only be arrived at by coercion.

I'm not trying to suit any argument, as you suggest, other maybe than that our wondrous liberal-democracy and liberal markets haven't exactly worked wonders, in the UK and US at least.

I actually fully agree with your earlier post about communism being morally superior to fascism, with both being misguided and unworkable. And yes, Di Canio's pride to be associated with fascism and fascist groups is completely stained by its association with ethnic purging. I was never saying otherwise. All I was doing was picking up on a comment by Danny that Italian fascism was subtly different to German fascism, and - almost in a contradictory manner - rooted in left wing principles, just enforced by, well, fascists!

I read a book recently "The Clash of Economic Ideas" by Lawrence White (Larry White, Larry White, Larry Larry White...) which tried to summarise the key economic debates of the 20th century. Unfortunately Professor White was a devotee of the Austrian School of extreme laissez-faire-ism who had a complete boner for Von Mises, Hayek, Reagan and Thatcher and couldn't disguise his disdain for Keynes, Galbraith, FDR etc., so in my mind the book was rarely objective. One weird chapter about FDR's New Deal post-Great Depression went so far as to say that it was rooted in the ideology of the so-called Institutionalist economists which themselves were in awe of Italian fascism (although this pre-dated the ethnic violence and WW2). Talk about trying to discredit a left-wing (by US standards at least) economic programme by association!

With communism and fascism both discredited, debate typically now centres around right-wing market-liberalism and left-wing politics with a significant role for the State. My right-wing friends (I've only only one or two, honest) say, with some justification that you should never underestimate a politician's capacity to spend your money on popular but unproductive and flawed projects. To this I counter never underestimate the capacity of unfettered free markets to allow vested interests to gain control of markets and to rig them to their own benefit.

Personally I'm a very avid follower of Keynes (as opposed to what has become known as Keynesianism) but I'm curious, as I said above, about German ordoliberalism. If anyone is well-informed about the latter I'd like to learn more to make a better judgment.

**Charlie Darwin** · 04/04/2013, 5:27 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I'm not trying to suit any argument, as you suggest, other maybe than that our wondrous liberal-democracy and liberal markets haven't exactly worked wonders, in the UK and US at least.

Oh, sorry, I wasn't suggesting you were trying to suit an argument. I was talking about the likes of Di Canio, who see fit to flash fascist salutes but when they're actually questioned about it say "I don't want to talk about this" and "I'm not a fascist, just ask my best friend Trevor Sinclair." Same as Americans who proudly fly the confederate flag but get indignant when anybody suggests they might somehow be sympathetic to slavery.

I read a book recently "The Clash of Economic Ideas" by Lawrence White (Larry White, Larry White, Larry Larry White...) which tried to summarise the key economic debates of the 20th century. Unfortunately Professor White was a devotee of the Austrian School of extreme laissez-faire-ism who had a complete boner for Von Mises, Hayek, Reagan and Thatcher and couldn't disguise his disdain for Keynes, Galbraith, FDR etc., so in my mind the book was rarely objective. One weird chapter about FDR's New Deal post-Great Depression went so far as to say that it was rooted in the ideology of the so-called Institutionalist economists which themselves were in awe of Italian fascism (although this pre-dated the ethnic violence and WW2). Talk about trying to discredit a left-wing (by US standards at least) economic programme by association!

American libertarians are great craic. The New Deal was influenced by some of the same ideas as fascism but to use that to discredit the former is ridiculous.

With communism and fascism both discredited, debate typically now centres around right-wing market-liberalism and left-wing politics with a significant role for the State. My right-wing friends (I've only only one or two, honest) say, with some justification that you should never underestimate a politician's capacity to spend your money on popular but unproductive and flawed projects. To this I counter never underestimate the capacity of unfettered free markets to allow vested interests to gain control of markets and to rig them to their own benefit.

I'm sure James would be in full agreement

**Stuttgart88** · 04/04/2013, 5:35 PM

Did anyone see the pics in the Daily Mail today of Di Canio attending the funeral of a convicted fascist bomber a few years back? I'm not sure the aviator shades he was wearing were just a fashion thing, but being Irish it's hard not to see the connection with terrorist thugs.

**paul_oshea** · 04/04/2013, 7:54 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

I think you've overanalysed this POSH. I was just trying to distance myself from the church, clumsily I'll admit.

admission as you have shown above implies guilt

**geysir** · 04/04/2013, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Did anyone see the pics in the Daily Mail today of Di Canio attending the funeral of a convicted fascist bomber a few years back? I'm not sure the aviator shades he was wearing were just a fashion thing, but being Irish it's hard not to see the connection with terrorist thugs.

That convicted neo-nazi 'bomber' was acquitted of all bombing charges. Nothing is straightforward in Italy, not fascism and definitely not that Bologna train station bombing.
But that's another complicated conspiracy with direct investigated proof of CIA involvement in the background.
We had a thread in the World Forum about Di Canio and his 'roman salute' to the Lazio Ultras, some 7 or 8 years ago.
AFAIR, the Italian FA were not prepared to accept Di Canio's explanation and even Lazio disowned his action. I think that was his 2rd strike on the 'roman salute' and he did a 3rd during the short life of the thread. I thought at the time that Di Canio was setting himself up for a political career.
In Italy, Di Canio blamed the fuss about his fascist salute on jewish groups and said something to the effect that if they hold sway then it's the end. His racial slur was about that there were all sorts of verbal abuse on the pitch but when it involves a black man then everybody complains.
His sentiments expressed then are in contrast to what he professes these days.

In making those type of comments publicly and making political gestures on the pitch, then for sure he has to answer to it. But if he has learned to be circumspect in the intervening years and distance himself, then I don't see that it should be an issue. He's a born nutcase who has learned to somewhat temper his views.

**Charlie Darwin** · 04/04/2013, 9:08 PM

Originally Posted by geysir

In Italy, Di Canio blamed the fuss about his fascist salute on jewish groups and said something to the effect that if they hold sway then it's the end.

Really? I've tried finding a source on this but all I can find is him telling everyone his manager is Jewish, therefore he's not a racist.

**Bottle of Tonic** · 04/04/2013, 9:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Di Canio has "Dux" tattooed on his arm, in honour of Mussolini.

I know little about it, but I think Danny is largely right. To the best of my understanding Italian fascism was more based on socialist principles of equality and national ownership of key industries, all overseen by a strong powerful leader but lacking democratic accountability.

Anyone who has seen the price-gouging by privatised utilities here in the UK, the hollowing out of the UK economy by outsourcing labour to the far east, the dramatic rise in UK inequality, the short-termism and just sheer intertia that can be caused by the liberal democracy we all hold so dear, not to mention the police state the recent media enquiry uncovered and also the expense-fiddling might just feel a modicum of sympathy with the above principles. I'm sure the cleric who wrote an open letter to Di Canio probably agrees with my assessment of the UK's flaws!

I think it's OK to agree with the above and not be automatically associated with genocide and racism. Maybe I've totally misunderstood what Italian fascism was about though, but I'd hazard a guess that it was as much an economic aspiration as any form of racism or worse, or rather that it's possible to be ideologically aligned with one aspect of Italian fascism and not the other parts. .

Good post. I wish I was able to articulate these sorts of ideas which I sympathise with (ie the state of UK society and so-called democracy) in the pub and/or online without being accused of being a Nazi or a racist or whatever reactionary ****e.

Great to see discussion like this on a football site. I'm no advocate of 'football and politics do not mix' and it reminds me that I should look up foot.ie a little more often.

Good posts by Danny as well.

**geysir** · 04/04/2013, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Really? I've tried finding a source on this but all I can find is him telling everyone his manager is Jewish, therefore he's not a racist.

As Paolo spoke in Italian, maybe do the search in Italian.

There was a report in the English Times and that site is firewalled from google search. This is what I could find for you. Obviously my parameters are more deadly than yours.

http://www.joinmust.org/forum/showthread.php?t=21913
Di Canio row could end in court
From Richard Owen in Rome
The Times December 14, 2005

THE row over the latest “fascist salute” by Paolo Di Canio, the Lazio captain, worsened yesterday as Italian Jewish groups threatened to take him to court for “anti-Jewish” remarks, in addition to whatever disciplinary action he may face.
Di Canio, 37, remained unrepentant over his “raised arm salute” to Lazio fans at the end of last weekend’s 2-1 defeat by Livorno, a repeat of the gesture he made at the end of a match in January against AS Roma, which Lazio won 3-1. He was fined €10,000 (about £6,750), which far Right groups raised to help him to pay. “I will always salute as I did because it gives me a sense of belonging to my people,” Di Canio said.

“I saluted my people with what for me is a sign of belonging to a group that holds true values, values of civility against the standardisation that this society imposes upon us. I’m proud to be able to count on such people and I will continue to salute them in this way.”

He added fuel to the flames by saying the “fuss” was being made by Italian Jewish groups. “If we are in the hand of the Jewish community, it’s the end,” he said. “If action is taken because one community is up in arms, this could be dangerous.” Vittorio Pavoncello, president of the Italian Maccabi Federation, the Jewish sporting organisation, said it was “considering legal action ”.

Sunday’s match between Lazio and Livorno was as much a political confrontation as a sporting one, since Livorno supporters are left wing while hardline Lazio fans traditionally back the far Right. Lazio fans held up swastikas and sang Fascist era songs, while Livorno fans waved red flags. Claudio Lotito, the Lazio chairman, said Di Canio had been “provoked”. However, the club said in a statement: “Lazio repudiates any kind of racism or politicisation of football.”

I remember there was also a hard core neo fascist/nazi web site with a page dedicated to Paolo, with his tatoos and 'roman salutes' in full glory. Of course there's nothing to suggest that Paolo had anything to do with it, but easy to see how the poison spreads. That site has been shut down.

**Charlie Darwin** · 04/04/2013, 10:55 PM

Thanks. Typical fascist, speaking Italian like that.

**geysir** · 04/04/2013, 11:06 PM

Here you go
http://www.corriere.it/Primo_Piano/S.../dicanio.shtml

and
http://www.farenet.org/default.asp?i...tArticleID=824

The good news was that Livorno won

**Crosby87** · 04/04/2013, 11:21 PM

My God Stutts you must hate Ayn Rand.

**SkStu** · 05/04/2013, 3:32 AM

The photo they didn't want you to see.

**Junior** · 05/04/2013, 7:44 AM

Red Hand of Ulster salute?

**Stuttgart88** · 05/04/2013, 8:19 AM

Originally Posted by Crosby87

My God Stutts you must hate Ayn Rand.

I loathe her. It's a bit like L Ron Hubbard and Scientology. How can people fall for such drivel?

**Crosby87** · 05/04/2013, 11:17 AM

Agree about L Ron. I think Ayn has some decent points.
There was a commercial about L Ron during the Super Bowl touting all his achievements and the next day one of the papers disputed every single one.

**ArdeeBhoy** · 05/04/2013, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Pauro 76

Is Paolo Di Canio a dedicated follower of fascism?

Good but that was doing the rounds years ago! And resurfaced last weekend.

Danny;posted those links belatedly back up thread.
Post #1968

IMO Chuck D. has ruled this thread and smashed the ball outta the ball park...