Okay, over the last 12 months we have played 13 games - we have lost 3. Those three were against undeniably better sides (poor performances notwithstanding).Originally Posted by p2011
Competitively we have won 4, drawn 1 and lost 3.
In friendlies we have won 2, drawn 3 and lost 0.
Overall, we have won 6, drawn 4 and lost 3.
Results wise, we have done pretty well over the last 12 months.
How much better, purely on results, do you think we could/should have done.
Edmundo's list is a good start, but I wouldn't regard the likes of Russia away as being in any way satisfactory, and a lot of the good performances are in minor/non-competitive games. The overall balance is fairly negative if you ask me.
"an adjustment in the approach would improve our likelihood of success" is exactly what I'm trying to say, and I'm all for nuanced argument. Performances/tactics/selectionare are at least as important as results in terms of analysing trends, because performances/tactics/selection will get us results and points in the long term. Depending on divine intervention (the draw v Russia and getting drawn against Estonia) isn't a reliable approach for the future. I think a change of tactics/selection will bring us more points this time round, and that will only happen under a new manager.
Last edited by p2011; 13/09/2012 at 1:05 PM.
OwlsFan, I was always sceptical that the Euro would ever work, but I was a dyed-in-the-wool supporter of the project because of who opposed it (here in the UK - right wing nut jobs and xenophopes basically). Though I'm a bit Trap-sceptic (Trap-cautious maybe) at the moment I'm generally supportive of him because of who opposes him!
Without getting side-tracked and I know you were talking about the team which played Macedonia, which of McGregor (Besiktas); Hutton (Aston Villa), Caldwell (Wigan); Snodgrass (Norwich); Morrison (West Brom), Adam (Stoke), Mackie (QPR), Darren Fletcher (Man U) and Scott Browne (Celtic) would not be worth a place in the Irish team or at least on the bench?
I would certainly play McGregor, Hutton, Adam, Fletcher, Brown at least and probably Caldwell.
Interesting that the Scottish fans have turned on Levein, why? Not because of style of football or selections (although many want Jordan Rhodes) to start, but because of results!!
p.s. I know Brown and Fletcher are injured but they have played in the past number of unsuccessful Scottish teams while we have got to play offs and qualified.
Last edited by OwlsFan; 13/09/2012 at 1:27 PM.
Forget about the performance or entertainment. It's only the result that matters.
It could happen, with the right appointment. However, there is more likelihood of getting a mediocre manager and losing everything we've gained under Trap; discipline, work-rate, and consistency against weaker sides. In other words, throwing the baby out with the bathwater, slipping down the seedings, and ending up perennial also-rans like Scotland/Hungary/Bulgaria. Talk of replacing him/sacking him is pointless, because it's not going to happen, for financial reasons as much as anything else. And if the FAI did bow to pressure from fans and media and sack him, what top manager in their right mind would want to take the job?
Subtle changes are needed - and I think/hope Trap is on the road to realising that, considering the personnel and tactics for the Oman game. I must admit, though, it is frustrating/worrying seeing the likes of O'Shea, Ward, Whelan and Andrews picked repeatedly, and this weird new development of strikers on the wing.
But in recent times, "discipline", "work-rate", defensive solidity also seem to have been on the wane too. So we have the disadvantages and are losing out on the advantages.
I agree with your last sentence - this is the sort of "car crash on repeat" stuff I'm worried about.
Just a quick thought. Trapattoni doesn't tend to pick the best players in the best positions all the time. His logic being that newer (and often better) players don't have time to familiarize themselves with Trap's system. Well, perhaps, if Trap could capably communicate his system to these players and had faith in their ability to adapt to the system then Ireland would be better served. Trap's ability to communicate with players and the media is constantly demonstrated as being insufficient. Why should this be any different on the training ground?
OwlsFan, I think it would be a distraction to thrash this out much but I think our players (and those available but not being picked) are better than theirs in most but not all positions. Some of the above are marginal calls I agree. But, when has Scotland produced a player like McCarthy or McGeady?
Last edited by Stuttgart88; 13/09/2012 at 2:21 PM.
Totally agree. Great post.
well he had no problems communicating his system to such an extent that we went through 2 qualifying campaigns with only one loss, beating all those ranked below us along the way, drawing with the current wc champions twice in the 2010 campaign, only losing out in dubious circumstances on WC 2010 qualification and while qualifying for the Euros.
there is no doubt that its Traps "system" that has led to a squad of very ordinary players doing far better than better Irish squads did for the 3 campaigns before he took over. also, i think you'll find that Trap has introduced lots of new players to the squad and team since he arrived. its up to him to decide which players suit him best
Seriously? The performance may have been backs-to-the-wall but until there's a major shift in the football power-verse, an away draw against Russia will always be a good result in my book.
While I agree with your overall point (on adjusting tactics), I think people have to consider that for a country our side to get through qualifying (and tourneys) requires the odd slice of 'divine intervention', whether it's a McKay winner, drawn out of a pot against Romania, squeaking through on goal difference in the US, Iraq in the play-off's or Richard Dunne's backside.
Realistically there's only a handful of sides - the top tier of European football - who can cruise through qualifying on their own ability. Everyone else generally requires the odd result going their way. Of course long term it'd be nice to think we could aspire to be an elite team, but short-term (ie even a couple of decades) it just isn't realistic.
And, really, a team who are more consistent and hard-to-beat than rivals should be lauded to a certain extent, rather than dismissed.
Don't want to get into one but Hutton is complete mince. I'd rather call up Gary Doc and push him into RB than have that eejit. Personally would rather our players over McGregor, Adam, Brown and Caldwell. Fletcher would take, if fit.
Never! Or at least not since they produced McCarthy and McGeady anyway...
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 13/09/2012 at 3:00 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
we got Estonia largely because we did well enough in qualifying to get us into the pot of higher seeds for the play off draw.
Also to point to lucky points against russia as "devine intervention" helping us qualify is to ignore very creditable wins in Armenia and Macedonia and draw in Slovakia where we should have won.
I do agree that Trap's results on paper are a positive and I do agree that he has brought alot of positives to the team, especially in the early stages of his reign, such as discipline and structure.
However, I don't believe that he puts out his best available team and I don't feel that he is a guy who is going to place much trust in younger players. Wilson, Coleman and McCarthy should be established internationals by now. In the case of Wilson and McCarthy, they should be well and truely first team players for us. Both are proven and good quality premiership players and who are young enough to become very good players. Both play in positions where we have had noticeable difficulties.
On a personal level, I like Trap. I also would respect that he is one of the greatest coaches of all time. However, his man management right now is very poor. I don't know if this is his poor English and communication skills, or if it is his old age kicking in. The players have far more warmth towards Tardelli than Trap. I can't help but feel that this is a nice retirement gig for Trap and that he isn't going to put himself out, in the way Brian Kerr or Mick would. Players like Brady and Hamann who played with him in the past noted how popular he was with the players (a recurring theme of great managers). I doubt many of our current team would share such sentiments.
A number of our players like Gibson have behaved disgracefully of late. However, I do believe that if they had been handled with more dignity and respect, we would not have ended up with these difficulties.
They haven't...
[QUOTE=SwanVsDalton;1627386]Seriously? The performance may have been backs-to-the-wall but until there's a major shift in the football power-verse, an away draw against Russia will always be a good result in my book.
I thought NI performed better against Russia than we did. There is the small detail of the result, but we had better players and vastly more luck. The Trapp philosophy - "play crap football in order to grind out results against poor and mediocre opposition" - only gets us so far, as was made cruelly apparent at the Euros.
Like a lot of people, I find it painful and at times shameful watching Trapp's team. He is continuing to alienate and humiliate too many of our better player (Clark and McLean the latest) and should go now. Would another manager do better is an unverifiable proposition until or unless he goes, but Mick did better than Trapp with a comparable group of players and played football. I simply cannot comprehend the continiung loyalty to a man who presided over the worst ever performance by a Euro finalist.
Trapp's crap!
Russia were almost asleep the whole match. They're barely broke a pre-sweat whereas they played with far more pace and urgency against us, particularly in the first half.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
It staggers me how much self-loathing goes on when people go on about how we only qualified because of a lucky draw (Indo). So what? As you say, lesser countries typically only qualify when they get some luck. And as jbyrne says, we earned the luck by getting a good seeding.
I do think that a reasonable expectation with the talent we have available is to become a solid second seed on a regular basis. I think the way to do that is by starting to think like a strong second seed, not an underdog determined to scrape results.
The consistent points hauls from the tricky lower seeds has been commendable (actually, in fairness it's been almost unthinkable given our record) but I genuinely think that by making certain adjustments and by taking the likes of Sweden on, really taking them on, we can crank things up a notch. Unless we trust players a bit more and match teams on a numerical basis more often I think we're more in danger of staying as a third seed, which perpetuates the uphill battle.
as i posted back in June of the 14 teams who actually qualified for euro 2012 11 qualified for all the last three finals at least and pretty much always do so. add england and denmark to that who only failed to appear in 2008 and that leaves 1 or 2 places each time for the likes of us.
Aye and when has NI produced players like James McClean, Darron Gibson, Marc Wilson, Shane Duffy?
It will all depend on the money available to pay the wages of the new manager. I would say the chances of a coach being appointed from outside Ireland or the UK is slim to none. Some great coaches available on the European continent but the FAI will probably not be going down that route this time. The FAI will not be appointing a manager who is currently in a job so no point mentioning Hughton, McDermott, MON etc etc. Mick McCarthy and Owen Coyle have options of managing in the Championship. I still feel McCarthy might fancy a return to international management so he has to be near the top of the list along with O'Leary. Curbishley of the English managers available might be interested. Daglish and Roy Keane will be in the running but doubt either will get the job.
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