Thank god my other half won't see this, or she'll begin to wonder.
I'd mostly go along with the innate argument, a bisexual person would have the element of choice to an extent, but even then both inclinations would have always instinctly existed in the mind - a straight person would hardly suddenly decide to have feelings for the same sex, or a gay person develop heterosexual urges.
I think it's important to recognise that the notions of homosexuality as choice and homosexuality as "learned" are not one and the same. And that it isn't necessarily a case of being either learned or innate either. The two need not be mutually exclusive. Both genetic make-up and the environment to which one is exposed in early life can, of course, interact or combine to lead to a homosexual outcome in later life.
If we take the example of genetically-identical twins and acknowledge that there are many instances where just one of the twins has a homosexual orientation whilst the other identifies as heterosexual, we'll see it's unlikely that genetics alone are the one and only determinant in the cause of one's sexuality.
A child can't consent - it's pretty simple differentiation to my mind. There's more in play than who a person finds attractive - power and control for example. You're seriously using the comparison of what happens between two consenting adults to predatory behaviour of an adult with a minor?Originally Posted by DannyInvincible
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
I'm referring to the sexual interest in children or the thought; not the physical manifestation of this. I acknowledged in a later post the obvious disproportional power relationship present when it comes to peadophilic acts.
Honest to God, there is no way in the world that you can get that from my posts (or Macy'e either). Nobody has come even remotely close to suggesting that homosexuality is a mental illness. If you disagree, please include some quotes of people stating/implying that.
As I said earlier:
And Macy's point was simple to understand - you seem to be saying that people are not born gay, as they are not born bad or mad (which Macy inferred as meaning mentally ill). Thus (for you) it follows that homosexuality is a lifestyle choice. Macy's question is, do you also feel that being mad is a lifestyle choice? Do you think people choose to become mentally ill?
I don't think paedophilia is innate in the same way as any other sexual desire.
The difference is in the action. A child cannot consent, therefore it's like comparable to someone who can't get sex raping someone. It doesn't matter if you're attracted to men, women etc it's the having sex without their consent that's the problem.
There have been cases where people attracted to children have turned themselves in, or committed themselves, to learn how to control the desire and not hurt anyone. I'm sure there are also cases where people are attracted to children and they never even think to act on the desire as they know it's wrong. I don't have any problem with these people.
Desire/attraction is one thing, acting on it to hurt another person is completely separate. That's why they are seen differently. Paedophilia is seen along the lines of rape (gay or straight), as this is the only way that particular sexual orientation can be satisfied.
Spudulika- baffled at the post about not being able to be born mad. You think people can't be born with mental illness?
The 'bad' is more debatable, based on your definition of bad, but for example sociopathy is a clear example where you can be born with a predisposition to being bad, because of the inability to empathise, a key in us being 'good'.
Last edited by dahamsta; 14/06/2011 at 10:13 AM. Reason: Use Multi-Quote please.
Mad I put as a poor way to link with bad. Mad I would never associate with mental illness, though in a tabloid manner I can understand it would be pasted together. While mad is attached to insanity or some such, there is also a developmental process for some forms of mental illness. Some are more prone to others, though it is always a question of nature or nurture or simple chemicals.
Bad, hmm, well, in a Christian sense we are all born perfect and without sin. We've all heard the inspiring phrase (twisted in jokes) "there's no such thing as a bad boy, or girl". While there are opinions that it is in some people's nature to be bad, I canot accept or agree with that.
Thanks for the clarification, I'd wondered why mental illness was being brought into the discussion as I'd never in a million years consider a gay person to be mentally ill.
Last edited by dahamsta; 14/06/2011 at 10:14 AM. Reason: Use Multi-Quote please.
Not sure why the elements of desire or attraction for each should be viewed as necessarily different simply because how each might manifest itself physically happens to be different. The instinctive thought and the physical act are two very different things and both need not be mutually inclusive. As you point out, there are surely paedophiles who suppress their urges in order to live a functional and social existence, or maybe those who can assuage their sexual appetite with their imagination. They're not breaching anyone's lack of consent, yet most people would still view their thoughts as sick and monstrous; an illness in requirement of psychological remedy. You'll find that, throughout history, the definition of what constitutes a mental illness has been rather murky territory. Often, it's been a brush used to tar those who deviate from what is purported to be "normal", "standard" or "natural" modes of thought and behaviour, as if we can unquestioningly take it for granted that there are such things. The other extreme of this argument is that there is no such thing as mental illness; rather, that we each just have varying personalities.
In saying that, I don't necessarily believe that sexuality, as with most modes of thought, is strictly innate, with nurture and environment most likely having a significant role to play, possibly in contributing to a homosexual outcome of which genetic make-up has increased the likelihood somewhat and that is no more of a choice than were it strictly genetic.
Sure, but we don't classify all homosexuals or heterosexuals as rapists simply because a minority of individuals of either orientation might have engaged in rape to satisfy their thirst. Even if an apparent majority of individuals who have had paedophilic thoughts have engaged in abuse, is it fair to vilify those who've gone to great pains to suppress their desires in order to conform with society's expectations of them by categorising their though-process with the thought-process of rapists?The difference is in the action. A child cannot consent, therefore it's like comparable to someone who can't get sex raping someone. It doesn't matter if you're attracted to men, women etc it's the having sex without their consent that's the problem.
It's not all that important to the general discussion, but according to Christian theology, we are all born bad or with the original sin of Adam and Eve that requires cleansing by baptism. That bloody apple...
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 14/06/2011 at 4:16 PM.
Thanks Danny, you're right, only Jesus and his teen Mother were without sin.
I should have clarified it 100% by saying that on christian principles children are born pure (eschewing the whole granny smith thing).
Interesting points about paedophilia, my Grandmother used to say it was a "lacking" in a person that made them abuse children. I remember asking her what they lacked and she said - knowing what is right and wrong. In so many instances what we do is guided by our society. Pederasty or paedophilia was common in many "classical" societies due to the societal mores in operation.
A Christian sense of it is irrelevant to me tbh, and doesn't affect my thinking.
What would your opinion be on sociopathy then? Obviously it doesn't automatically equal bad but certainly vastly increases the chance.
Sorry, that was a typo, that should have said it is the same. Hence the rest of my post. my bad.
Thought this was relevant: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13760662
About 50 supporters of Northern Ireland's gay community are picketing a conference which focuses on helping people turn away from homosexuality.
The protest is being held outside the event organised by the Core Issues Trust group at a Church of Ireland venue in Belfast.
Inside, about 15 people listened to Amercian speaker David Pickup who promotes "reparative therapy".
He claims he can encourage homosexual people to practise hetereosexuality.
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