And that's exactly it NB.Originally Posted by Not Brazil
The eligibility issue is becoming a bigger issue than it oughta be. It seems that though with Ye being absolutely atrociously bad if late that its being pushed by someone (Worthy/IFA maybe?),
in order to justify the astonishingly awful nature of the performances of late.
In fact it says it all about the quality of your qualifying group that despite how we've played you could conceivably end up in the play-offs. And that will no doubt save Nigel's skin unfortunately.
It's become a bigger issue because there are so many people who don't understand what the actual issue is!
There are people that think FIFA have given special dispensation for the FAI to select NI born players. Seriously.
Whatever about the people, there are people employed by the IFA and BBC who think that too... read the transcripts above of Stephen Watson's questions. Terrible.
Here's the truth that dare not be spoken in certain quarters.
The IFA, Northern Ireland fans, Stephen Watson, Jim Magilton or whoever are never going to stop Citizens of the Republic Of Ireland playing for the Republic Of Ireland.
By some still trying to stop this, I would argue that it will have the effect of more and more players deciding to throw their lot in with the FAI - ie. it is counterproductive.
It goes against the very grain of "Football For All".
If a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland, let him.
If the IFA spent more time focusing on players who want to play for Northern Ireland, they might be in a better place.
They might actually want to look at why a player wants to play for the Republic of Ireland - I understand some funded research is being undertaken by the IFA in this regard.
I could save them a lot of time and money - it's because those players feel more of an affinity with the Republic of Ireland, than they do with Northern Ireland. Nothing complicated or sinister about that.
Changing Anthems, Flags etc is a red herring.
I see some Northern Ireland fans are giving Niall McGinn a bit of stick about stating he is a Republic Of Ireland supporter - big deal. Is it such a shock that a Nationalist supports the Republic Of Ireland??
At least Niall turned up to play - more than can be said of some of our Northern Ireland supporting players.
If Niall puts in 100% in a Northern Ireland shirt, I couldn't care less who he supports.
Where Niall, and any other player, says their prayers, or puts their X on a ballot paper is their business - nobody elses.
How they perform in a Northern Ireland shirt is the business of Northern Ireland supporters.
The issue of players using the IFA, before jumping ship to the FAI is a different discussion, but some Northern Ireland fans need to get it into their thran heads that the players who don't want to play for Northern Ireland aren't ever going to be forced to play for Northern Ireland.
Focus on those who do.
Last edited by Not Brazil; 25/05/2011 at 5:16 PM.
The Englishmen came over in the year 2005
But little did they know that we'd planned a wee surprise
Sir David scored the winner, and Windsor Park went wild
And this is what we sang...
Good post NB.
Just getting the opportunity to watch this now so I'll give a brief overview on my thoughts. Nothing really new added to the debate, mind. Con Murphy opens the issue by telling of the "growing number of players switching allegiance from north to south" and Eamonn Donohue, narrating over footage of Kernaghan and Crossley, tells of a "stark increase" in the number switching after putting aside their IFA caps. Although there is misleading later talk of floodgates opening and such, the latter is somewhat closer to reality in that not all players from the north to ever declare for the FAI have necessarily been capped at any level by the IFA, but then Alan Kernaghan never played for the IFA at any level either. And it being "all thanks to 1998's Good Friday Agreement" isn't at all true either. Surely after name-checking Kernaghan and Crossley, someone in RTÉ's research department would have noticed they played for us before 1998.
Kearns' chronology of events is enlightening as he appears to be suggesting that he went to the effort of getting his eligibility for u cleared up and clarified before receiving his phone-call from Sean McCaffrey.
Micahel O'Neill speaks of limiting the number of times a player eligible for two associations may change his allegiance throughout his career, but this is already limited to one switch anyway by the existing rules. Another "solution" suggested is the introduction of an upper age cap by which a player's allegiance ought to be decided if already capped by an association. This is often suggested, and, to be honest, I wouldn't take major issue with it if FIFA were to re-introduce it, but that's the thing; they scrapped the age limit from their statutes a few years ago after lobbying from the north African Francophone bloc of associations and it's highly unlikely they'd go back on that or introduce a one-off rule specific to the Irish situation. There's be no indication that they'd consider it. But I guess the IFA are more than free to campaign for this if they wish.
The "stealing" accusation is also rightly refuted and it's pointed out that the choice is fundamentally at the hands of the player. If the FAI were to agree to a "gentleman's agreement" whereby an age cap is introduced, they would still be potentially limiting the choice of a northern-born player to switch to us otherwise permitted by FIFA's current rules. John McDonnell also mentions having had English-born Johnny Gorman, now a full NI international, in his team when he was an under-age manager with the FAI, which I think shows the IFA up as being hypocritical.
I agree with everything you say. Spot on NB.
And a lot more than can be said of some of our so-called players.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
You guys think you have it bad? You should see our lot whenever a friendly is announced, they drop like flies. I think glandular fever has been used as an excuse recently, the player in question of course turned out for his club only 4 days later. He should market whatever medication he was on.
For anyone interested (and UK-based), the highlights and this discussion are available on BBC's iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ll_24_05_2011/
I'm only getting the chance to watch it now so I'm guessing the discussion comes up late on in the programme.
Meanwhile, there's this video where Andy Donlon of Bohs' TV1 "puts the question to the fans of both Northern and the Republic of Ireland on players born in the North declaring for the South" for ExtraTime.ie:
Some of the comments are quite bizarre and warped, but I suppose it gives an insight into the level of confusion that unfortunately exists around the issue. A friend of mine suggested that the video makes the NI fans sound like fascists and our fans sound like hippies; dare I say he wouldn't be far wrong? An Orange Order flag even makes a surprise appearance at 2:51.* One NI fan, who's of the belief that Darron Gibson is from Belfast, is claiming that Shay Given was actually born in the north but his birth certificate says he was born in the south. Did the FAI have it doctored for him?
Anyway, as Bonnie suggests, maybe it would be a good idea for the FAI to defend themselves against the accusations levelled and make a public statement outlining the facts and clearing up the issues once and for all. Or would that give credibility to the accusations? It's all well and good clearing matters up on here, but widespread confusion clearly still prevails within the wider public, both north and south.
P.S. How did that chap in the background at 1:43 make it into the NI fan section with his Ireland top? Wasn't there a strict policy of segregation in place?
*Not excusing the daft and out-of-place Vatican flag draped across the back of one of our supporters at 2:25, but is it so much of an issue within our support? Unsure myself; just putting that out there.
Probably worth noting that some of those interviewed are probably being interviewed after consuming a pint or ten.For anyone interested (and UK-based), the highlights and this discussion are available on BBC's iPlayer: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...ll_24_05_2011/
I'm only getting the chance to watch it now so I'm guessing the discussion comes up late on in the programme.
Meanwhile, there's this video where Andy Donlon of Bohs' TV1 "puts the question to the fans of both Northern and the Republic of Ireland on players born in the North declaring for the South" for ExtraTime.ie:
Some of the comments are quite bizarre and warped, but I suppose it gives an insight into the level of confusion that unfortunately exists around the issue. A friend of mine suggested that the video makes the NI fans sound like fascists and our fans sound like hippies; dare I say he wouldn't be far wrong? An Orange Order flag even makes a surprise appearance at 2:51.* One NI fan, who's of the belief that Darron Gibson is from Belfast, is claiming that Shay Given was actually born in the north but his birth certificate says he was born in the south. Did the FAI have it doctored for him?
Anyway, as Bonnie suggests, maybe it would be a good idea for the FAI to defend themselves against the accusations levelled and make a public statement outlining the facts and clearing up the issues once and for all. Or would that give credibility to the accusations? It's all well and good clearing matters up on here, but widespread
confusion clearly still prevails within the wider public, both north and south.
P.S. How did that chap in the background at 1:43 make it into the NI fan section with his Ireland top? Wasn't there a strict policy of segregation in place?
*Not excusing the daft and out-of-place Vatican flag draped across the back of one of our supporters at 2:25, but is it so much of an issue within our support? Unsure myself; just putting that out there.
As I write this, bathed in the rainbow-esque glow of several lava lamps and enjoying some sitar music that I composed myself, it strikes me that.................um, what was I saying?
Danny it was at the very end of the highlights where Watson and Magilton were spouting.
What can we say.
Maybe we should all get together write up a pamphlet and deliver it to all the media organisations and associations to end this bull. I'm tired of it becoming the issue du jour.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
As Trap said in his interview with Watson, it's left to the players concerned to make their decision. There's no FAI coercion or underhand tactics involved. Watson does manage to invent something out of Trap's semi-indecipherable answer when he alleges Trap had told him that FIFA "must sort out this eligibility rule", and Magilton agrees with him, accusing FIFA of hiding, but the fact is that CAS has already clarified matters, the rules are there in their clarity, plain as day for all to see, and every utterance from FIFA on the matter has been clear in reaffirming that the rules are the rules.
BBC Newsline report by Kevin Sharkey on the matter here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13542323
It was clearly produced prior to the game, but I just spotted it on the BBC site there now. Once again, it's possible it's only available for viewing to UK-based users, sorry.
A brief summation: Sharkey points out that dual nationality is open to those born in the north, giving them a choice, and that players from the nationalist community have lined out for "the country of their birth" in the past, and still do. He then highlights how others like Darron Gibson have opted to play for Ireland, however, with "more young players taking the same route"; there being little the IFA can do about it. A man is then interviewed, although it is unhelpful that no identity is provided, but I assume he is an IFA spokesman of some sort; he (surprisingly?) outlines the issue pretty well and in an informed manner. He does mention the Good Friday Agreement, however, as if it's fundamental. In reality, I don't see how it is, given the declarations before 1998, other than it having possibly added a greater sense of legitimacy to the selection of northern-born players. He later talks about how FIFA have laid out their statutes and how these were subject to judicial interpretation by CAS. He concludes that "because FIFA is subject to that jurisdiction, [the judicial interpretation by CAS] would appear to be definitive." Even if FIFA weren't bound by CAS, and I'm not so sure they actually are, as UEFA have yet to permit the Gibralter FA member status despite CAS ruling that it met the required criteria, FIFA's current rules and stance are in line with the CAS judgment anyway.
Sharkey, walking casually across Windsor's hallowed turf, goes on to mention that a particular sore point with the IFA is that it feels it "grooms, nurtures and spends a lot of money on developing these young players with the ultimate aim of having them line out for NI at Windsor Park at senior international level" but the FAI are "reaping the benefits". I feel this claim is open to debate for the reasons I outlined in this post in the Shane Ferguson thread.
It is made apparent that the IFA "want redress" and then cuts to an ill-informed interview with Nigel Worthington who says the issue "needs to be more black and white" with the "indecision" needing to be "put to bed once and for all".
Can't see us finishing second, it would probably mean having won two of the three games against Serbia and Estonia home and away. Who would score the goals?
Although it's worth remembering that our group was widely identified as one of the stronger when the draw was made. Give n that there were three of the 2010 finalists in it.
We've been poor: Serbia and Slovenia arguably even more so.
NI has had an excellent qualification campaign so far. An away win in Slovenia - how many times in living memory as NI won against a team of similar rank to Slovenia? NI has drawn at home to both Italy and Slovenia, both WC finalists and NI had the led in the game away to Serbia.
Ha ha. Morning IFK.
Think of the campaign as a round of golf: achieve par and we have a chance the play-off,
Slovenia, par 1 point, result 3
ITALY, par 1 result 1
Faeroes, par 3, result 1
Serbia, par 0, result 0
SLOVENIA, par 3, result 1
thus far par 8, points 6
FAEROES par 3
SERBIA par 1
Estonia par 1
ESTONIA par 3
Italy par 0
Par for the course 16. To get that now we need three more wins. I think Slovenia will go into their last game (home to Serbia) with 14 points (they'll likely beat Estonia and Faroes and lose away to Italy), Serbia would have 13 if they beat the Faeroes and draw with us and Italy.
NI has taken 4 points from Slovenia, a WC finalist. That's an excellent return for NI. I'm sure Slovenia would have been targeting at least a return of 4 points from their double-encounter with NI. Prior to these matches, I would have expected NI to take 1 point in Belfast and to lose in Slovenia. +3 points
A draw at home to Italy is a great result. They have a far greater pick of players both in terms of numbers and quality than what's available to NI. I would have expected Italy to beat NI in Belfast. +1 point
It was always going to be difficult for NI to get a draw or win against Serbia away from home but NI did take the lead so they were competitive for a period of time in that game. I would have expected Serbia to beat NI at home prior to the match. +/- 0 points.
The only result so far in the campaign that can be perceived as below par by a NI supporter is the draw away to the Faroes Islands. I don't think NI should see that result as two points lost but rather as one pointed gained. After all the Faroes excel at the ultra-defensive tactics - NI struggle to score goals, the Faroes had the lead in that game and NI did extremely well to get an equaliser. I was confident prior to that match that NI would struggle to win away to the Faroes. A draw on the balance of play was pretty fair. +/-0 points
So to summarise, and in the opinion of a neutral observer, NI has amassed 4 points more than what would have been expected prior to the playing of these matches. It has been an excellent campaign so far for NI.
The North won't qualify (extremely doubtful we will) and in general we should ignore their collective whining....
Jim Boyce saying northern-born players who have declared for us would have been better off playing with NI.
I see the Belfast Telegraph are now attributing to NI fans the mistaken belief that the GFA has anything to do with northern-born Irish nationals being eligible to play for Ireland. If I'm not mistaken, they've consistently been misreporting that along with other incorrect information on player eligibility and the relevant rules themselves for quite some time. As for Boyce, like so many, unfortunately, in a supposed era of cross-community understanding and tolerance, he's clearly missing the point if he sees no reason why a northern-born Irishman would rather play for Ireland, even if it does come at the cost of the player exposing himself to a greater competition for places.Former Irish FA president Jim Boyce has sent a clear message to the young Northern Ireland players thinking about declaring for the Republic of Ireland, stating: “Don't do it”.
Boyce has been dismayed to see several players who turned out for Northern Ireland youth teams recently decide to switch allegiance and go south.
The situation has infuriated the Green and White Army who believe the FAI are taking advantage of the Good Friday Agreement and poaching gifted youngsters from the IFA.
Boyce is aware of the political element in this issue and that young Catholics who have grown up supporting the Republic may want to go down that road, but suggests looking at it from a pure footballing point of view it is the wrong route to take.
He said: “I’m very sad to see so many players switching allegiance. With the situation in the country now I don’t feel young players have any reason, if they are born in Northern Ireland, for not wanting to play for the country of their birth.
“All of these players leaving Northern Ireland are not going to get on the Republic of Ireland team because they have a lot more to choose from than ourselves, yet with us they would be regulars, which is surely better for them than being bit-part players.”
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