Anglo Billions

[Billsthoughts]

Can anyone tell me what all the money is being spent on?

[dahamsta]

Uh, millions? Hello?

[Macy]

Can anyone tell me what all the money is being spent on?

The billions are effectively hush money.

[passinginterest]

The Euromillions?

[Billsthoughts]

so nobody knows?

[Dodge]

so nobody knows?

Nope, and 2 or 3 tribunals down the road, in say 2021, thats the conclusion that will be formally reached.

Taoiseach John and Finance Minister Edward will be rattled but the Greens/Raving Looneys coalition will survive

[Mr A]

According to my understanding, it largely covers Anglo's losses on throwing out ridiculous loans all over the place. To throw out the loans they had to borrow the money themselves elsewhere,and just because the development loans won't in many cases be paid doesn't mean their own loans are gone. And since the state now owns Anglo that means we own the debts.

Which is a bad thing.

[Billsthoughts]

Thanks. So we wouldnt be paying so much if we hadnt taken them over? Or would the guarantee have meant we would? If not why is Brian Lenihan not be crucified for the error in nationalising them?

I just find the figures mental. With that amount of money spent on meaningful projects we could have a great country!

[hula4]

so if the government never took ownership of anglo what would have happened if anglo simply could not play back their loans?

[pineapple stu]

I suppose the ultimate situation would have been going to withdraw money and being told Anglo didn't have it because they were still waiting on the developers to pay them back. So potentially, goodbye life savings.

[Fr Damo]

Watch RTE1 @ 9.35 Monday night.

Apparently Seanie rang BOI (B Goggin) on the 29th sept & told him he was skint and might not be able to open the next day. He asked BOI to take Anglo over. BOI sat on it and then rang AIB to let them know what had taken place. Between them they decided to call B Lenihan and suggested the only way to avoid a flight of capital from depositors was gauarntee the whole lot of them and for the Government to take on the Assets and Liabilities of Anglo. The trouble is nobody bothered with the duedilegence!

[Spudulika]

Brian Lenihan is not being strung up because he's sick, and he's been left in his position because his illness suits the needs of the ruling regime, this regime includes the "developers" and financiers who have lined politicos pockets for decades.

Back when this guarantee was announced I called David McWilliams and asked what was the story, he said it would bring about the ruination of the country in the form being agreed, that it would end up being a black hole where money would disappear and never be found again. If anyone read Shane Ross' most recent article in the Indo it's obviously clear as to what's going on, not to mention the mollycoddling Alan Dukes got on Prime Time last week. The only solution is to fold up Anglo, do a deal with the creditors and move on, AIB is next to fall and BOI is going to be on rocky ground. When the recent crisis hit in Russia the government gave a clear offer, we'll bail you out but will take over control of the bank - suddenly banks sobered up and got moving, or else took up the offer, were brought under the control of larger (read Putin) banks or just went out of business. Yet the country moves on and keeps going. It won't happen in Ireland as there are too many worms in the can to come out!

[Billsthoughts]

Appreciate Brian Lenihan is sick but you can be compassionate to the guy and still point out when he seems to have made a complete error on something. A lot of the papers seem to still push the line that he is a potential/the actual taoiseach!

The solution now would seem to be to cut deals with the creditors. Offer them smaller percentage of what is owed. Not sure why this isnt on the agenda other than the cloud of mystery surrounding the money being spent in the first place. Dont see how this will effect our reputation as the country seems to be heading for bankruptcy anyways the way things are going.

the figures do put the recent private sector/public sector debate into context. Seems to have been a complete red herring.

[Spudulika]

Billsthoughts, I think Brian Lenihan is a decent skin (I prefer his brother as he's a sports freak and great company, as well as a LOI fan), and I agree with you, he shouldn't be sheltered from criticism because of his illness. It's tradition that the Minister for Finance will be in line to take over when the Taoiseach steps down (or is eliminated as Bertie did to Albert), though I never would have put him in the frame, even before he got sick. He shouldn't be in the position he's in now, a specialist in finance or diplomat is needed, though leaving him there suits the ruling cabal, if he goes there would be chaos. Let Anglo go to the wall, it's the only sensible thing, investment will ebb and flow as it's always done - however the government are stating that Anglo is Ireland, they keep pushing this line that if it goes so does credibility in Ireland Inc., but this is nonsense (examples are easy to find - Finland, Sweden). It will run to over 40billion and we'll still have more banks to bail out, meanwhile ghost estates are left everywhere, zombie hotels lie idle and the media are told to keep the masses occupied, it'll never change.

[bennocelt]

The only solution is to fold up Anglo, do a deal with the creditors and move on, AIB is next to fall and BOI is going to be on rocky ground. When the recent crisis hit in Russia the government gave a clear offer, we'll bail you out but will take over control of the bank - suddenly banks sobered up and got moving, or else took up the offer, were brought under the control of larger (read Putin) banks or just went out of business. Yet the country moves on and keeps going. It won't happen in Ireland as there are too many worms in the can to come out!

Explain please, you seem to know the score. Tx
(a worried AIB account/pension holder!!!)

[dahamsta]

Lads, you lost me, why is Lenihan's illness even a factor in this thread? If Lenihan isn't up to the job then he should either resign or be fired, simple as. Until that happens, can we concentrate on the actual Current Affair in the title?

[Dodge]

Npt to mention the fact that he wasn't exactly doing hard labour as it is. He can easily do msot of his job from home

[osarusan]

Lads, you lost me, why is Lenihan's illness even a factor in this thread? If Lenihan isn't up to the job then he should either resign or be fired, simple as. Until that happens, can we concentrate on the actual Current Affair in the title?

I think the point being made though, was that even though you are completely correct in saying that his illness shouldn't be a factor in the issue (or this thread), it might be possible that FF are leaving him in there despite his illness (or because of his illness) because they feel a sick man will get an easier ride in the media.

So even though FF might wonder if he's the best man in charge of the Anglo Millions, he's a good public face for it.

[Spudulika]

Lads, you lost me, why is Lenihan's illness even a factor in this thread? If Lenihan isn't up to the job then he should either resign or be fired, simple as. Until that happens, can we concentrate on the actual Current Affair in the title?

Dahamsta, it's Minister Lenihan who's "rescued" the bank, and he's just not up to the job, hence his inclusion in the thread, his illness is keeping him in the job - sorry, but it cannot be discounted from the equation, if somebody performing as poorly as he has been was not sick he'd have been put out on his ear, however it shows his lack of integrity that he won't resign, he's just not up to the task of making and taking hard decisions. edit: Osarusan answered far better than I ever could have to the question posed.

Bennocelt, I've money tied up with AIB too and the only thing I know for sure is that they will come to the government to ask for support - this goes down to a number of seriously toxic loans given out, including a 150million loan to buy a stretch of coastline which changed jurisdiction - in a semi-legal sense - in Abkhazia. I have only the hard copy version of this in the Moscow News (newspaper) from 2008 where 2 Irish developers (one I'd never heard of and the Quinn East group) got a loan from AIB to go in with two preferred clients of A-1 Financial Corporation (they took 10% of the amount from Alfa Bank, part of A-1) and the whole deal blew up, pardon the pun, with the Russia-Georgia war, and rights to the land lost. I believe that AIB are in a quite okay position, despite the number of defaults on domestic mortgages they've had, however they will still need funding. One thing is for sure, they won't be let fail as they are economically strong and the scale of losses will not affect them as bad as Anglo or BOI.

[Poor Student]

Spudulika, the scale of losses is likely to affect AIB more than BOI. AIB have taken larger haircuts than BOI on their NAMA transfers and have a larger amount to raise to reach the new capital adequacy ratios. BOI have had their restructure plan rubber stamped by the EU and have gone through a rights issue and look to have avoided majority state ownership. AIB on the other hand still need to have their plans agreed with the EU Commission and still have to undergo a massive assets disposal to attempt plug as much of €7bn plus gap as possible.