You're hardly world beaters yourselves, no harm to you.Originally Posted by Qwerty
We've never been world beater more like world tiers. FWIW I think we should create an 'Island of Ireland' team. I'm aware that it was the FAI who walked away from the IFA but I would love to see an all Ireland team, what's probably stopping it is the smaller blazers on both sides not wanting to lose out on their little fiefdoms.
Its interesting, reading a few posts up from what his dad said....these young players with multiple possibilities really do have a serious ace in the hole when it comes to being able to leave.....
But having to play nations like France and Russia with so many more people, we have to be happy whenever something like this happens....
No Somos muchos pero estamos locos.
In all the media stories I've seen on this, not one has mentioned that Duffy qualifies to play for Ireland through his Donegal-born father and maternal grandmother by virtue of the non-contentious parentage rule; a fundamental and universally-accepted element of international football since who knows when? Instead, all I see is a big deal being made out of this (RTÉ describing Northern Irish football as having been "rocked", for example, as if it's about to collapse in on itself with the shock) and comparisons being made with Darron Gibson's more controversial and politically-charged scenario. Is it just to bolster a bit of news with some controversy or to win political points through thinly-disguised insults and gloating from the respective "sides"? Probably.
Both situations aren't exactly the same and some people seem keen to politicise this and accuse the FAI of bad faith or foul play here. Well, I'm talking about those I've heard speak on the matter from within the IFA (Worthington acting the paper tiger and talking nonsense about someone needing to find a resolution to this "situation", et cetera; does he suggest we abolish the parentage rule or revoke Duffy's father's citizenship?) and those I've seen from a brief glance through the thread dedicated to Duffy on the OWC forum (references to him being a "traitor" and "defecting to the Dark Side"; maybe comparisons with the Prodigal Son would be more apt?). I'd argue that Duffy's switch would be more akin to, say, a player like Barry Maguire declaring for us, than to a player like Gibson's whose decision was made under a wholly different set of circumstances; Gibson having no family born south of the border, as is well-known.
As I said, I had a look on the OWC forum and they seem to be linking all this with the Gibson example (along with even the Marc Wilson example; who, incidentally, I believe has an Irish grandparent so should, similarly, be distinguished from Gibson's circumstances), which they view as amounting to FAI "poaching" of players to whom we - it is claimed - shouldn't be entitled. For what it's worth, I hold a different view, believing in the birthright of all born on our island to declare themselves as citizens of Ireland if they so wish. So does the government of the UK, incidentally, which claims jurisdiction over the north-eastern corner of the island. The majority of the population in that little statelet also saw fit to recognise this. And before someone goes off on one naively idealising about keeping politics out of sport, well, it's rather difficult to separate the two when we're dealing with football teams representing nation states here. Quite how you might detach all things political from deciding who is eligible to represent the sporting teams of political entities - with all their territorial claims and counter-claims, agreements and disagreements - is beyond me. And you too, I would imagine. Anyway, without getting too much further into politics, God forbid, that right of citizenship should naturally extend to representing your country internationally in the sporting sphere. Either way, that becomes irrelevant here given Shane's rather indisputable links to the Republic through his father's birth as far as Northern Ireland fans are concerned.
So then, where does that leave us? The only real issue for them then that I can see as being remotely valid can be with regard to the IFA's investment of time and resources into him as a youth player, but they have to remember that this wasn't and never is a one-way process. Naturally, the IFA were developing him in their own interests - that's perfectly acceptable - but they were also aware of the risk of the player switching. Besides, he returned effort on the pitch and they benefited from him captaining their sides. Obviously he contributed quite a lot in return then. To say he still owes them is simple begrudgery. He always gave his best on the pitch for them, scored goals and played a vital role in their defence. That's immediate return for their investment. He gave back what he got. Now he'll move on to a different set-up, learn and progress further through similar investment and give back more still.
Even so, there's no obligation to continue "repaying" an association for the sake of routine. What does he owe them in these begrudger's minds? Two more years, five more years, a full career of loyalty?... It's admirable and courageous, I think, what he's doing because it's not like he's been drafted straight into our squad. He gave his all when selected for Northern Ireland despite not even truly identifying with the entity he was representing. That takes a lot to do and Northern Ireland fans ought to be thankful for that. He's now prepared to bide his time rather than jump at the chance of a cap now with Northern Ireland. That could be viewed as a sacrifice of sorts; denying himself immediate international exposure in the face of the mere potential to see a fruition of something greater down the line. It demonstrates restraint, maturity and healthy ambition not to settle for something inferior and to fight for what he really wants whilst it may be harder to achieve.
It's an interesting debate that one; the idea of players owing associations something in return for their investment beyond mere representation simultaneous to the particular association's investment. But you can see how it's not a simple matter of black and white for a player growing up in the north either where the whole footballing culture and framework will be IFA-oriented from a young age. While a player may grow up supporting the Republic, as Duffy clearly did, the structures around him and in which he finds himself from a young age are governed by the IFA. Local teams and local league structures are all tied into this system. Naturally enough, he'll find himself moving through that framework at schoolboy level more out of geographical circumstance and received convention than any active choice or positive realisation until it becomes routine or "just how it's always been" (maybe "snowballs" would be a bit strong a word to use, but you get the idea) and then there comes a time when maturity is reached and the player becomes self-aware enough to make his own decision regarding his own future regarding who he wishes to represent based on how he self-identifies, but he's already a cog in this other system. Obviously, in an ideal world, things would have run smoothly and he'd have been playing with us all along, but, then, this is the real word and it's full of grey. Obviously, as the player came to a realisation of who it is he actually wants to represent he simultaneously harboured feelings of guilt and regret on "turning his back" on his colleagues. Duffy clearly struggled with this for quite some time and was almost apologetic in announcing to Worthington that the time had come for him to face up to it and follow his dream. I think Northern Ireland fans have to respect that and cut the guy some slack. Anyone else who fully knows who they are below such a young age; well, fair play to them...
Last edited by DannyInvincible; 23/02/2010 at 2:39 AM.
^ May I congratulate you Danny on a very articulate and thoughtful post. If you are able to, may I also ask you to post it on OWC. If you are not, would you mind if I copy and paste it.....giving you full credit of course!
I myself have posted, at length, on this issue on OWC many times, but it is always useful for new posters, particularly NI based ROI supporters, to offer their own perspective on the matter. Yours, would be very welcome.
The only point where I would have a somewhat different view is the idea of compensation. I believe that this may have to given serious consideration, for the simple reason that the number of players from NI opting to play for ROI could turn from a trickle into a flood. In which case, the future competitiveness of the NI international side will be severely affected.
Last edited by The Fly; 23/02/2010 at 5:10 AM.
I find Nigel Worthlesston's comments quite amusing. He is quite prepared to encourage the targeting and selection of English underage internationals for NI teams. He obviously is aware of the eligibility rules but seems to conveniently fake any knowledge of the application of the eligibility rules when it comes to NI born players choosing to represent us. To quote Nigel himself; "I think it is a ludicrous situation which needs to be resolved."
In the case of Shane Duffy, the chap has for some time questioned if he wanted to continue representing NI. As Duffy has not been selected for any of our international sides, there still remained time for Nigel & Co. to convince Duffy to stay with NI. After all Nigel states that Shane seems to have decided to stay with NI only to change his mind again last week. Indeed Nigel states it was last week that he knew Shane had decided to throw his lot in with us. So why did Nigel & Co. decide yesteday to publish a press release with Shane's name included for NI's forthcoming glamour friendly? Surely Nigel & Co could have just lefted his name out of the squad list and continued their work in trying to convince Shane otherwise rather than bringing all this to the public domain. As EalingGreen points out, NI have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to centre halves so if Shane's name wasn't included in the squad list, the wider general public would have been none the wiser with what was going on behind the scenes. But now that Shane's decision is out in the open, the likelihood that he will represent NI again is near zero. Perhaps if this had been kept out of the public domain Shane could still have continued to represent NI.
Nigel states that the IFA will be releasing a statement about Shane Duffy later in the week. It should make for interesting reading.
I can only judge by the games I've watched, where yes. Anyway, I'd trust Worthington, Beaglehole and co. to know when players' hearts aren't in it.
You smooth-talking Derryman, you.I'll admit I'd be more disappointed about this if SD was in his mid-20s, but he isn't. I just can't see Awec's points- you make it sound as if he was taking all this investment without returning anything- but in practice he was strengthening teams which otherwise would have included presumably lesser players. He doesn't really owe us anythingAs the NI legend that is Gather Round has said, perhaps 18 is the best cut-off point
Harsh, funny boy. Maybe we'll try it next time we finish 10 points behind qualifying for the Euros. Actually, we won't. Handing out caps like this is a bit pointless- all it means is the guy can't play for anyone else.
Get with the program. There's already an all-Ireland team (plus numerous players from the rest of Britain). And it's still pretty mediocre. Just look at the Euro seedings.I think we should create an 'Island of Ireland' team. I'm aware that it was the FAI who walked away from the IFA but I would love to see an all Ireland team, what's probably stopping it is the smaller blazers on both sides not wanting to lose out on their little fiefdoms
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2010/...nd_duffys.html
Although I do sympathise with the IFA, it is hard to see what the IFA think FIFA can do, especially as this is a case of the grandparent rule being applied, unlike Gibson's case. And, as has been pointed out, NI (along with every other team) are not adverse to snapping up a player who has played youth internationals for other countries.The Irish Football Association look certain to demand answers from FIFA after another youngster decided he would rather play for the Republic of Ireland.
Manager Nigel Worthington believes there could be flaws in a system that allows players who have come through the age groups with one nation to represent another country.
Worthington has failed in his attempt to persuade promising Everton defender Shane Duffy his long-term international future lies with the province.
You're still all not grasping this. Most people aren't annoyed that he switched sides, its how long he waited. If he wanted to play for the ROI he should never have been anywhere near our youth sides.
This is what grates people. We develop a player and the FAI get the benefits.
If Duffy had declared for the FAI and played through their youth system, nobody would give 2 hoots about him.
Cheers. Yeah, that's not a problem if you want to go ahead and do that. I think I posted on there in the past about the Gibson issue when it arose, but, unfortunately, I doubt I'd have the time in the upcoming days to defend my views if they drew criticism, which they probably would. Maybe if I get the time I'll get on it and contribute to the debate, but in the meantime, if you'd like to post it there, that's fine with me, and I'll leave the defence of it up to you for now. :P^ May I congratulate you Danny on a very articulate and thoughtful post. If you are able to, may I also ask you to post it on OWC. If you are not, would you mind if I copy and paste it.....giving you full credit of course!
I myself have posted, at length, on this issue on OWC many times, but it is always useful for new posters, particularly NI based ROI supporters, to offer their own perspective on the matter. Yours, would be very welcome.
The only point where I would have a somewhat different view is the idea of compensation. I believe that this may have to given serious consideration, for the simple reason that the number of players from NI opting to play for ROI could turn from a trickle into a flood. In which case, the future competitiveness of the NI international side will be severely affected.
I see your point on the compensation. It's definitely something I'm not discarding lightly. It's a sticking point alright and the concerns have to be addressed. I think it's a matter of working out whether youth players owe associations something beyond the time and resources they invest in the player while they're representing them. Maybe you could argue that something might be owed back if the trickle becomes a flood to the point of rendering the IFA's youth structures semi-pointless. There is this idea that youth football is primarily focused on preparing players for the future or the senior squad. But then, it is very difficult to put a value on this potential future return. Possibly, a solution would be for the FAI to invest resources into football in Northern Ireland relative to some estimated value to the FAI of players who grow up playing through the IFA's system before switching to play with the Republic? While the value of those to the IFA who represent their under-age teams can't be discounted by Northern Ireland fans - and this must be considered as some form of return - there could be players in whom the IFA invest their resources only for them never to appear in a Northern Ireland shirt before making the switch. Maybe you could justify compensation where the player hasn't returned anything of real significance.
Cheers. Yeah, that's not a problem if you want to go ahead and do that. I think I posted on there in the past about the Gibson issue when it arose, but, unfortunately, I doubt I'd have the time in the upcoming days to defend my views if they drew criticism, which they probably would. Maybe if I get the time I'll get on it and contribute to the debate, but in the meantime, if you'd like to post it there, that's fine with me, and I'll leave the defence of it up to you for now. :P^ May I congratulate you Danny on a very articulate and thoughtful post. If you are able to, may I also ask you to post it on OWC. If you are not, would you mind if I copy and paste it.....giving you full credit of course!
I myself have posted, at length, on this issue on OWC many times, but it is always useful for new posters, particularly NI based ROI supporters, to offer their own perspective on the matter. Yours, would be very welcome.
The only point where I would have a somewhat different view is the idea of compensation. I believe that this may have to given serious consideration, for the simple reason that the number of players from NI opting to play for ROI could turn from a trickle into a flood. In which case, the future competitiveness of the NI international side will be severely affected.
I see your point on the compensation. It's definitely something I'm not discarding lightly. It's a sticking point alright and the concerns have to be addressed. I think it's a matter of working out whether youth players owe associations something beyond the time and resources they invest in the player while they're representing them. Maybe you could argue that something might be owed back if the trickle becomes a flood to the point of rendering the IFA's youth structures semi-pointless. There is this idea that youth football is primarily focused on preparing players for the future or the senior squad. But then, it is very difficult to put a value on this potential future return. Possibly, a solution would be for the FAI to invest resources into football in Northern Ireland relative to some estimated value to the FAI of players who grow up playing through the IFA's system before switching to play with the Republic? While the value of those to the IFA who represent their under-age teams can't be discounted by Northern Ireland fans - and this must be considered as some form of return - there could be players in whom the IFA invest their resources only for them never to appear in a Northern Ireland shirt before making the switch. Maybe you could justify compensation where the player hasn't returned anything of real significance.
Think you'll find that most of us agree totally with what you're saying. But unfortunately or fortunately in our case that's the way it is at the moment with the rules.
I have a head only Snow White would love
http://www.derryjournal.com/derry/Du...gel.6095352.jp
So it was Liam Brady's doing (not that Shane needed any convincing by the sounds of things"As you can imagine, myself and the rest of the family are thrilled to bits now that he has made his decision," declared Mr. Duffy.
"Shane told me it has always been his ambition to play for the Republic of Ireland. I for one can't believe that it is now done and I'm delighted."
Mr. Duffy claimed that his son's decision was based on furthering his professional career and he remained extremely grateful for the experience and education he gained as part of the N. Ireland underage international set-up.
"It's always been his childhood dream to play for the Republic," added Brian. "He was brought up through the N. Ireland ranks but as time moved on he felt he would benefit more from playing with the Republic.
"Shane holds no ill feelings whatsoever towards N. Ireland and he remains extremely grateful for the experience he gained when playing for the N. Ireland international squad at youth level."
The Football Association of Ireland have since invited the Duffy family as their guests to the forthcoming friendly international against Brazil in Arsenal's Emirates Stadium on Tuesday next, March 2nd.
Mr. Duffy and his family, including Shane, have accepted that invitation and they expect to meet representatives of the FAI including former international and Arsenal legend, Liam Brady who, it's believed has been highly influential in securing the services of the Derry lad.)
Serious question. How much of his development should you (NI) be credited for? Or the Repulbic for that matter in the case of any player? How far are we from the French model of youth development? Are there centres of excellence? How much support do the Schoolboy set up get from the Ascotiations to warrant credit for their development? Like are schoolboy coaches at district level presented with and supported in oppertunities to take UEFA coacing badges by the ascotiation or do they do it off their own back
Or is it a case of simply calling up what they feel are the best players at a given time to represent them?
Not being Sarcastic? I honestly don't know. Question is valid for ROI...
There exists so called emerging talent regional centres. The FAI website is quite informative about this if you look under the "domestic & grassroots" and "player development" topic options.
It's interesting to note that Duffy had only been with Northern Ireland for about under 2 years and has only just turned 18. The way some bitter NI fans are expressing their outrage, you'd think that he had been there 10 years. Labelling Duffy a 'traitor', turning his back on 'his country' is also a bit sickening and shows a fundamental ignorance of both the player's individual situation and indeed that of any young player from a nationalist background.
I know he had represented various age-groups, but he was intentionally fast-tracked from the age of 16 (Worthington has admitted this) to attempt to stop him from switching earlier. From the player's perspective, at such a young age, it must be very hard to turn down these opportunities when they're presented. It must also be incredibly hard to leave when you're given a 'guilt-trip' over letting the team down or 'ignoring' (au contrare; Duffy has openly thanked his coaches profusely) the time and money that NI have invested in his 'development' (actually, wouldn't Everton be the ones who developed him?). However, Duffy appears to have matured somewhat and has finally come to a conclusive decision, turning down the tremendous opportunity of senior international football in order to follow his dream*.
*Duffy said on the back of the Irish Star today that it had always been his dream to play for Ireland, since it was the international team he grew up supporting (as is the case with many NI youths, with or without (perceived) 'legitimate' Republic connections. However, some Northern Ireland fans can't accept this at all it seems.
I suppose Shane did gain a bit of resilience while developing with the Norn Iron team when they got stuffed by Iceland (six nil?) at Winsdor Park.
What value would we put on 2 years experienced under Don Givens?
That's true, we should be suing the IFA for hampering his career.....
Since Ive never seen the lad play I just hope he turns out to be as good as people are saying now after all this fuss
Its really not that complicated!!!
That's a cracking post Danny, saves me a lot of time, the issue about this being different to the Gibson case has been mentioned on the thread alright, I'm ataggered by how it'snot mentioned on a lot of the media coverage.
Would be interested to see the response to the post on OWC if The Fly posts it....
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